Takeoff Mins/Pinnacle Ops Specs

[DoinTime]

You can't ignore it just because you have substandard charts with incomplete information.

Yes we can. As long as our charts are approved by the FAA we can use them for everything contained therein legally. That is FACT.

Are you suggesting that we are bound by information contained in charts that we are not approved to use? Surely, you must be smarter than that. We use the charts we are provided and we have no way of knowing what everyone else's charts say. If you want to point a finger at someone for the charts we use point it at the company or the FAA for approving them. The crew is not to blame.

 

[SSDD]

That's pretty scary. To ignore information that is readily available. I'll say it again, if the tower issued an RVR report for that runway, then you can't ignore it.

BTW, what do you Ops Specs say about taking off when the reported RVR is 1000 ft?

 

[RJLoser]

Sec. 121.651 - Takeoff and landing weather minimums: IFR: All certificate holders.
Link to an amendment published at 69 FR 1641, Jan. 9, 2004.
(a) Notwithstanding any clearance from ATC, no pilot may begin a takeoff in an airplane under IFR when the weather conditions reported by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, are less than those specified in --

(1) The certificate holder's operations specifications; or
(2) Parts 91 and 97 of this chapter, if the certificate holder's operations specifications do not specify takeoff minimums for the airport.

Jepps and LIDOs are not controlling

 

[SSDD]

Or another way, what do your Ops Specs say about the relevance of RVR reports when conducting lower than standard takeoffs?

 

[RJLoser]

........

 

[jehtplane]

Jepps are NOT controlling, if you have C056 AND C078, and the airfield is so equipped...

Jepps are controlling. Your op specs give you authorization to use lower than standard takeoff minimums, but you still CANNOT go lower than published. Kinda scary that some of you guys think you can....

 

[jetracer5]

Sec. 121.651 - Takeoff and landing weather minimums: IFR: All certificate holders.
Link to an amendment published at 69 FR 1641, Jan. 9, 2004.
(a) Notwithstanding any clearance from ATC, no pilot may begin a takeoff in an airplane under IFR when the weather conditions reported by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, are less than those specified in --

(1) The certificate holder's operations specifications; or
(2) Parts 91 and 97 of this chapter, if the certificate holder's operations specifications do not specify takeoff minimums for the airport.

Jepps and LIDOs are not controlling

Yea if i was FLYING A CESSNA! We dont operate Part 91 but aparently PNCL does

 

[RJLoser]

Yea if i was FLYING A CESSNA! We dont operate Part 91 but aparently PNCL does

That is a 121 reg. Look a little closer.

 

[Crizz]

You suppose they had a takeoff alternate?

 

[propsarebest]

umm, no they are not...
your ops specs are, weather they say you use published takeoff mins or you can use less than standard takeoff mins...


See C056.

Jepps are controlling. Your op specs give you authorization to use lower than standard takeoff minimums, but you still CANNOT go lower than published. Kinda scary that some of you guys think you can....

 

[DoinTime]

Or another way, what do your Ops Specs say about the relevance of RVR reports when conducting lower than standard takeoffs?

If the available information to the crew and dispatcher dictates that we use tower visibility than RVR means nothing. Even with an RVR report you can't use it because this particular runway in the LIDO charts does not use an RVR measurement for the minimums.

That's pretty scary. To ignore information that is readily available. I'll say it again, if the tower issued an RVR report for that runway, then you can't ignore it.

Readily available? Where is this information available to a PCL crew or dispatcher? Maybe I have to tell you again.....PINNACLE DOES NOT USE JEPP CHARTS!!!

 

[rustypigeon]

The Jepps are controlling. Op Spec C056c says so. To my knowledge, Op Spec C056 is issued along with C078 to all 121 operators using lower than standard takeoff minimums. Op Spec C056c states... "When a published takeoff minimum is greater than the applicable standard takeoff minimum and an alternate procedure is not prescribed (such as a min climb gradient), the certificate holder shall not use a takeoff minimum lower than the published minimum."

As far as the Jepps and LIDO's. The FAA determines the departure mins for an airport, not the publishers of charts. The chart manufacturer simply makes a graphic representation of procedures from the TERPS. If there is a descrepancy between two different publishers, then one of them is wrong.

Those of you who think you don't have to abide by the published mins on the jepps... Do you think you can take off rwy 27 at IPT (Williamsport PA) with 1/4 vis? If you think you can, I'd love to hear your logic.

 

[Ratherbsurfing]

I have to say I'm a little bit dumbfounded that some of
you folks think jepps are controlling. The only time they will be is if the takeoff mins are greater than standard, in that case I don't belive you can use reduced mins. I strongly encourage those of you who think jepps control at all times to clarify your understanding with your d.o. or a check airman.

 

[DoinTime]

As far as the Jepps and LIDO's. The FAA determines the departure mins for an airport, not the publishers of charts. The chart manufacturer simply makes a graphic representation of procedures from the TERPS. If there is a descrepancy between two different publishers, then one of them is wrong.

I agree....either Jepp or Lido is wrong. Which one is really irrelevant because until it changes in the books the crews are expected to operate in whatever way they dictate. Right or wrong.

 

[SSDD]

Dointime,

You're stuck on this chart thing. If as the original post stated, the TOWER gave an RVR report, THEN IT IS AVAILABLE, and you have to abide by it. It doesn't have anything to do with who publishes your charts.

Did you read the part where I asked what your Ops Specs say about the relevance of RVR reports when conducting lower than standard takeoffs?

I would be very surprise if it doesn't say in there somewhere that RVR reports, when available, are controlling. That has been pretty standard at every airline that I'm familiar with. So that if the prevailing visibility is 1/4 mile, but the tower issues an RVR for a particular runway, then you have to go by that. Now, you could go to a different runway without RVR and take off based on the prevailing vis, but that doesn't seem the be the case here.

 

[rustypigeon]

I have to say I'm a little bit dumbfounded that some of
you folks think jepps are controlling. The only time they will be is if the takeoff mins are greater than standard, in that case I don't belive you can use reduced mins. I strongly encourage those of you who think jepps control at all times to clarify your understanding with your d.o. or a check airman.

Then who exactly are those numbers on the back of the airport pages for?

 

[TapitLight]

This is a great thread. Still no definitive answers. I was the one listening to these two Pinnacle planes takeoff that morning. There were no tower visibility reports, no mid point rvr, no rollout rvr, no touchdown rvr reports. nothing of the sort. There was one single RVR report. It was 1000 RVR.

Reading my GOM it states

A flight conducted under part 121 may use the takeoff mins outlined in the ops specs CO78 provided the conditions authorising their use are followed and the Takeoff Minimums section of the Jeppessen approach chart are consulted.

My Jepp chart said 1600RVR or 1/4 sm visiblity while the tower was reporting 1000 RVR 1/8sm visilbiity.....

Throw on top of that a gate agent looking at me like an idot asking why Pinnacle can go and I am stuck on the ramp!

 

[RJLoser]

Don't worry, a lot of people look at me like I'm an idiot.

 

[ChickenSled]

This is a great thread. Still no definitive answers. I was the one listening to these two Pinnacle planes takeoff that morning. There were no tower visibility reports, no mid point rvr, no rollout rvr, no touchdown rvr reports. nothing of the sort. There was one single RVR report. It was 1000 RVR.

What did the ATIS say?

 

[TapitLight]

ATIS stated:

Freezing Fog, visibility 1/8 sm, vertical visibility 100'