Takeoff Mins/Pinnacle Ops Specs

[Bart Simpson]

I can't hold back, after ten pages I feel the need to add something as well.

At my copmany (think banana and mexican food to guess where I work), we actually went through exactly what you guys are talking about: Can I take off based on my OpSpecs or my 10-9 page?

And EVERYONE had an opinion about it until the FAA finally made its way into the discussion and their response was very simple: If the numbers published by the airport through Jepp, LIDO, NACO are higher than what your lower than standard opspec authorize, you MUST abide by the published numbers.

If you are in BFE and the airport published 1600RVR, you CAN NOT take off at 1000RVR even if your OpSpecs tell you that the lowest you can go is 6/6/6 (btw, if you have 6/6/6, you can probably go at 6/6, so that technically would be the lowest possible); ASSuming, of course, that you actually looked at NOTAMs.

BUT do not EVER use the published Alternate Minimums unless your company paid a premium to have your company specific ones printed.

This was fun. Kind of reminds me of the whole discussion about ice and flying.

Question of the week for all you 121 guys: Can I fly through a SEVERE ICING SIGMET?


Get some coffee and discuss amongst yourselves.


"never fo(o)llow, always question"

 

[Hugh Johnson]

I have to eat my words. I've been flying 91 too long. Here is the current FAA runway minimum list. SBN supports 1600 RVR. Even if you have 5/5/5 authorized, you can't use it. My bad.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...tatus_lists/media/LTS_Take_Off_Minima_Pub.xls

 

[Sig]

Well, it isn't "just is" ..."it" comes from a form 8260. which the FAA prepares and from which ALL chart manufacturers obtain the information.

I, as is Avbug, am shocked at some of the interpretations I've read here. Just do a loaded take-off in a larger airplane and you would see why the roll-out RVR is important on take-off. Have an engine fail after V1 and you will have explored both ends of almost every runway if you are heavy.

Ding ding.

My biggest WTF over this thread was "where's the fire?" It took Avbug (you too, Don) to 'splain what we're chatting about.

 

[s3jetman]

wow 10 pages and i have not seen it so here it is

"Mesa Sucks!!!!"

 

[rustypigeon]

FAA finally made its way into the discussion and their response was very simple: If the numbers published by the airport through Jepp, LIDO, NACO are higher than what your lower than standard opspec authorize, you MUST abide by the published numbers.

Cliff notes for this entire thread right here ^. This is the final answer.

 

[cale42]

Wow this is scary...

You can't go below published minimums. Period. Ever.

Op specs are the lowest possible. My ops specs says I can go as low as half a mile on a non precision approach too.. but I can't do that if the approach doesn't allow it.

C056 says you can can use any applicable lower than standard IF there are no published minimums.

Whoever thought they could land with 1800 even if it isn't published is dead wrong as well.

Quite simply you can't go below published minimums ever. With a HUD you can have op specs down to 300 RVR for takeoff.. but you can only do it on runways that are approved for that.

Its always the highest of op specs or published.

cale

 

[SEVEN]

I can't hold back, after ten pages I feel the need to add something as well.

At my copmany (think banana and mexican food to guess where I work), we actually went through exactly what you guys are talking about: Can I take off based on my OpSpecs or my 10-9 page?

And EVERYONE had an opinion about it until the FAA finally made its way into the discussion and their response was very simple: If the numbers published by the airport through Jepp, LIDO, NACO are higher than what your lower than standard opspec authorize, you MUST abide by the published numbers.

If you are in BFE and the airport published 1600RVR, you CAN NOT take off at 1000RVR even if your OpSpecs tell you that the lowest you can go is 6/6/6 (btw, if you have 6/6/6, you can probably go at 6/6, so that technically would be the lowest possible); ASSuming, of course, that you actually looked at NOTAMs.

BUT do not EVER use the published Alternate Minimums unless your company paid a premium to have your company specific ones printed.

This was fun. Kind of reminds me of the whole discussion about ice and flying.

Question of the week for all you 121 guys: Can I fly through a SEVERE ICING SIGMET?


Get some coffee and discuss amongst yourselves.


"never fo(o)llow, always question"

Unbelievable. The guys supporting the Pinnacle guys still don't get it. Mesaba is authorized per ops specs to depart with 600RVR. It doesn't mean we can do it anywhere.
I'll say it again. 121 carriers CANNOT takeoff SBN below 1600RVR. Why? The airport/runways do not have the equipement to support a 1000rvr takeoff.
PERIOD! We can talk about ops specs all day long but this thread is using them out of context.
Those of you that think Pinnacle can use their ops spec minimums for takeoff at any airport they want are dangerously misguided. This will bite many of you someday.

Please someone explain to me how Pinnacle is legal to depart any airport they want at 600RVR or 1000 rvr. I would like to hear this.

 

[rustypigeon]

Now that we are at an understanding (hopefully) of Op Specs vs. Jepps, I am going to throw a wrench in the works. I think this fits well along the same subject lines.

Lets say your Op Specs allow you to go down to 500. We are departing out of LGA Runway 31. The Jepps say that you can go down to 500 (assume all lighting is working). Looking at the notams, you see this...

!FDC 6/7120 LGA FI/T LA GUARDIA, NEW YORK, NY. TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS AND (OBSTACLE) DEPARTURE PROCEDURES... TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS: RWY 31, 300-1 1/2 OR STANDARD WITH A MINIMUM CLIMB OF 260 FEET PER NM TO 400. REST OF DATA REMAINS AS PUBLISHED.

What is the lowest visibility you can have to depart runway 31? (assume you can climb at least 260ft/nm)

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

That doesnt specify lighting systems required. I would say you can still go down to the 10-9 mins for what lighting systems are working or ops specs, whichever are higher.

I'll need to do some digging into my Airway Manual though to make sure....

 

[BoilerUP]

This is for a 135 operator's specific OpSpecs, but looks like its flow might be applicable to the discussion here...

Takeoff Minimums Flow Chart

 

[gunfyter]

Now that we are at an understanding (hopefully) of Op Specs vs. Jepps, I am going to throw a wrench in the works. I think this fits well along the same subject lines.

Lets say your Op Specs allow you to go down to 500. We are departing out of LGA Runway 31. The Jepps say that you can go down to 500 (assume all lighting is working). Looking at the notams, you see this...

!FDC 6/7120 LGA FI/T LA GUARDIA, NEW YORK, NY. TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS AND (OBSTACLE) DEPARTURE PROCEDURES... TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS: RWY 31, 300-1 1/2 OR STANDARD WITH A MINIMUM CLIMB OF 260 FEET PER NM TO 400. REST OF DATA REMAINS AS PUBLISHED.

What is the lowest visibility you can have to depart runway 31? (assume you can climb at least 260ft/nm)

You can go with what the OpSpec says if you meet the climb gradient. the 300-1 1/2 allows you to see and avoid the obstacle if you don't have the climb gradient.

 

[SizzleChest]

THis is a funny thread! DING DING School's in beetches!!!

Think of it this way. The municipality gets $ to build an airport. They want all the pimp equipment but can't afford it. So they can only put certain equipment like lights and markings on certain runways. I don't build airports, I am a pilot. I need to know what the runways at an airport can handle according to Part 97 and all the regs that airports have to build and operate under. This is so I can fly out of there. So how does the airport authority tell me what the runways can handle? Well, they publish that info and companies like Jepp print it on their charts in a handy way that is easy to read. Jepp just passes on the info from the FAA and everyone else in a pretty little page. So I look at that page and it tells me what a particular runway can handle based on its equipment... things like 5/5, 5/5/5, 6/6, 6/6/6, 1/4 MI, etc. Now let's say I write down the WX minima that the runway i want to depart has on a cocktail napkin.

Next.... I consult my airlines OPS SPECS. OPS SPECS tell me what my airline is allowed to do in the places it operates. This is what our crews are trained to do and should know how to do (present thread not withstanding..). The problem is that not all airports are the same. So even though I can go down to 6/6/6, it doesn't mean that all airports can handle 6/6/6 because they ran out of $ when they built the place and are not equipped for 6/6/6 or, TEMPORARILY, something else has popped up that may limit takeoff mins to something HIGHER than what was published by Jepp. Lights may be broken...construction may be going on nearby... whatever. This is why NOTAMS need to be looked over to make sure that you don't hurt anybody or anything.

For argument's sake, here is our condition for our flight. The runway can handle 1200/1000RVR takeoffs as evidenced by my Jepp info. My airline can do 6/6 takeoffs as evidenced by OPS SPECS.

So what do we do now?? We have a square peg and a round hole... UH-OH!!! Well not quite.....

You see, even though I can do 6/6 takeoffs (OPS SPECS), this runway can only handle down to 1200/1000 ("Jepp") because of NOTAM, design, whatever.

So now we can takeoff but no lower than the 1200/1000 runway restriction regardless of my 6/6 capabilities.

Here's another scenario.... The runway lists 5/5/5 on the Jepp because of how the runway was designed and equipped. All the lights on the RWY work, etc. My OPS SPEC only has me as low as 6/6/6.

UH OH!!!!!!

Well in this case, I can only go as low as 6/6/6 becase I am not authorized in OPS SPECS to do less than that. IT DOESN'T MATTER that the runway allows 5/5/5 I cannot do 5/5/5. I guess that is just for the cool kids....

DING DING! Class is over! GTFO beetches!!!!

 

[LHRCrewDog]

I may have found an instance where you can takeoff below published Jepp takeoff mins. Look at the Tallahassee 10-9. It lists the mins as 6 tdz and 6 rollout. Now look at the date, Nov. 2, 2007. Anyone remember some general changes to takeoff mins. that came out around June of 2008? These changes outlined what you need to takeoff with 5/5/5. It also came out with some new language about equipment needed. Basically you need two operable RVR (TDZ and rollout), HIRL, CL and of course you need the approval in your op specs. My company is NOT approved for 5/5/5, but several others are. My point is that in this instance, companies with the approval in their ops specs are permitted for a 5/5 takeoff. This chart was made before the updated guidelines, or my chart is out of date. Look at the format changes of your 10-9s before mid-2008 and after mid-2008.

With regards to the Jepp. takeoff mins...they are very good guidelines and they are mostly correct. But when it comes to legality, your ops specs are what you need to know. Of course you CANNOT takeoff with 1000 RVR with only one RVR. Everyone's ops specs says that. Jeppesen knows the equipment layout of the runway, so they put these numbers in as guidelines.

Know your op specs because all jepp 10-9s are not current with the updated takeoff min. changes that came out last year. But honestly, it probably will not make a difference. Jepps do a good job with their guidelines. Of course, I could be wrong. But this is my tenth year in the airlines at two different companies and I always remember my RPC instructors saying that Jepp Take-off mins are guidelines.

Eric Pogo

 

[LHRCrewDog]

Ooops. I forgot to mention that when the jepps include a ceiling requirement or a higher-than-standard visibility, everything changes. Then they are like legal published take-off mins.

Eric Pogo

 

[Andy Neill]

Oh, I may as well jump into the fray here.

Here is the way I taught takeoff minimums starting from best to worst.

1. Are there higher than standard takeoff minimums published (that we cannot get around like with a climb grandient)? Standard for us was 1 mile so if an airport required 300-1, that was higher than standard and binding.

2. If there were not higher than standard published, we needed 1600 RVR in the TDZ or 1/4 mile vis (with reported RVR taking precendence). That also required RCLM OR CL OR HIRL OR anything that could be considered adequate visibility. If the TDZ RVR was inop, we could use the midfiled, if available.

3. If we didn't have that, then we needed 1200 (later changed to 1000?) in the TDZ and 1000 in the rollout RVR with the midfield substituting for either if missing. We also need CL.

4. If we didn't have that, we could use 600 in the TDZ, midfiled, and rollout with any of those allowed to be missing but not reported below. To use 6/6/6, we also needed CL AND HIRL.

5. If we didn't have any of those then we couldn't go.

Now to apply this to the original post where PNCL was taking off on a runway without CL or HIRL, and 1000 RVR being reported in the touchdown, rule 1 was not applicable because there was not any higher than standard published. They didn't meet rule 2 because they were below 1600 RVR. They didn't meet rules 3 or 4 because of the absence of CL. So they couldn't have gone under the rules I taught.

I agree with the Jepp position that they are there for convenience (should match with your OPSEPCS) and are not binding on their own. Ineed, the common example was SFO where the 1600/ 1/4 minimums and the 6/6/6 minimums were listed, but the 1200/1000 minimums were not published but available even if HIRL was out.

If PNCL had the same OPSPECS as we did, I don't see how they were legal for takeoff.

 

[LHRCrewDog]

I think it is 1000/1000 with CL lights or HIRL and RCLM. But there is a 1200/1200 rule now, too. During the day with 1200/1200 you need RCLM or HIRL or CL lights. For 1200/1200 at night you need HIRL or CL lights. These were some of the recent chages that came out in mid-2008.

Eric Pogo

 

[Andy Neill]

I think it is 1000/1000 with CL lights or HIRL and RCLM. But there is a 1200/1200 rule now, too. During the day with 1200/1200 you need RCLM or HIRL or CL lights. For 1200/1200 at night you need HIRL or CL lights. These were some of the recent chages that came out in mid-2008.

Eric Pogo

Thanks. Even with that, neither the 1000/1000 nor the 1200/1200 daytime rule was met in that they didn't have two reportig RVRs.

 

[LHRCrewDog]

Yep...They blew it. Someone should kindly mention this to their training department. This is not the first time I have heard them do this.

Eric Pogo