Takeoff Mins/Pinnacle Ops Specs

[gunfyter]

OpSpecs are controlling?

What does your OpSpecs say you need for 1000 RVR? Runway Facilities Required?

Mine says 2 RVRS NOT just one. Actually 3 RVRs but one may be not available.

This is why the Jepps have RVR-1600 for the minimums at SBN. According to AIRNAV.com RW 27L only has ONE RVR.

 

[regionalcap]

People, the back of the 10-9 is NOT CONTROLLING for airlines! Period. Please read the 121 reg that was posted earlier in this thread. You must look at what you are authorized to do (based on ops specs). Ops specs are issued based on training at your company. I know we cant use certain Cat 2 apchs that use the MM for the DH or ones that use barometric pressure, though they are listed as 1200' RVR Cat 2's. We also cant use the CAT 2 in BOI because of the apch lights that it has. We need ALSF 1 or 2's.
If you think that Jepps are controlling then you are doing your company a disservice, (unless you enjoy making the extra $$ waiting for RVR's to go up!) Please call your training department and talk to one of your in-house sim instructors. They will tell you that ops specs dictate when you can takeoff, not Jeppesen.
I have to stop reading this thread, its too irritating for a Saturday afternoon. Have a good weekend.

This is what the Delta manual says.

"Only apply takeoff minima as low as published on the airport page unless
specifically authorized lower by NOTAM or flight plan remark."

Your examples are misleading. You are referring to something more restrictive to Jepps.

 

[Allen1]

Non 121 crews and equipment.

Dude you're so wrong it's not even funny. Hope I don't have to ride on the back of your airplane. your understanding is dead wrong. You can only reduce if the chart allows those minimums. Your statement about the back of the chart being just for part 91 is flat out scary!

 

[Stifler's Mom]

6 pages and still no definitive answer. C'mon guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Allen1]

People, the back of the 10-9 is NOT CONTROLLING for airlines! Period. Please read the 121 reg that was posted earlier in this thread. You must look at what you are authorized to do (based on ops specs). Ops specs are issued based on training at your company. I know we cant use certain Cat 2 apchs that use the MM for the DH or ones that use barometric pressure, though they are listed as 1200' RVR Cat 2's. We also cant use the CAT 2 in BOI because of the apch lights that it has. We need ALSF 1 or 2's.
If you think that Jepps are controlling then you are doing your company a disservice, (unless you enjoy making the extra $$ waiting for RVR's to go up!) Please call your training department and talk to one of your in-house sim instructors. They will tell you that ops specs dictate when you can takeoff, not Jeppesen.
I have to stop reading this thread, its too irritating for a Saturday afternoon. Have a good weekend.

Another person who is wrong you're not reading the ops spec right.

 

[dustrpilot]

.....

 

[viper548]

Here's what skywest has:
-10-9 is only controling when published takeoff mins are higher than standard takeoff mins (i.e. 2sm or if a minimum ceiling is listed, 300-1)

-1600 or 1/4sm= HIRL, CL, RCLM or adequate visual reference
-1200/1200/1000, Day=RCLM or HIRL or CL
Night= HIRL or CL
-1000/1000/1000 a) CL, or
b) HIRL and RCLM
-600/600/600, HIRL and CL

The 10-9 at SBN shows the takeoff mins are standard, so we are able to use lower than standard mins.
27L has HIRL but no CL. If the RCLM was visable (not covered in snow) takeoff mins would be 1000/1000/1000

-For operations below 1600 RVR a minimum of 2 RVR reporting systems are required.

If there are at least 2 RVR reporting systems the takeoff mins would be 1000/1000/1000 (or whichever 2 they have)
If there is only 1 RVR reporting system the mins would be 1600 RVR

Our mins are almost always what the back of the 10-9 says but there are a few exceptions out there

 

[gunfyter]

6 pages and still no definitive answer. C'mon guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is a definitive answer...

OpSpecs require at least 2 working RVRs for less than 1600RVR takeoff mins.

SBN RW 27L has ONLY ONE RVR....

1000 RVR takeoffs are not allowed.

 

[viper548]

If you're the only one taking off or landing due to weather it would be prudent to figure out why

 

[timmay]

Jepps are trying to do the work for you. In order to (as stated numerous times before) reduce below 1600 RVR requires at least two working RVRs therefore you cant reduce below that no matter what.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Sec. 121.651 - Takeoff and landing weather minimums: IFR: All certificate holders.
Link to an amendment published at 69 FR 1641, Jan. 9, 2004.
(a) Notwithstanding any clearance from ATC, no pilot may begin a takeoff in an airplane under IFR when the weather conditions reported by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, are less than those specified in --
(1) The certificate holder's operations specifications; or (2) Parts 91 and 97 of this chapter, if the certificate holder's operations specifications do not specify takeoff minimums for the airport.


This is pretty easy. 121.651(a)(1). Opspecs rule. They are FAA approved. End of discussion. If your opspecs say you can do jato takoffs from grass strips, you can.

You guys that think you need 3 rvr's for take off are ignorant morons. Those are landing only. WTF do you care what the rvr is 9000 feet down the runway?

It's obvious, in these 6 pages, about 3 guys understand the rules they fly under.

 

[gunfyter]

Show me the OpSpecs that say you can takeoff with less than 1600 RVR and ONLY one RVR reported?

Nobody has that OpSpec.

 

[regionalcap]

Sec. 121.651 - Takeoff and landing weather minimums: IFR: All certificate holders.
Link to an amendment published at 69 FR 1641, Jan. 9, 2004.
(a) Notwithstanding any clearance from ATC, no pilot may begin a takeoff in an airplane under IFR when the weather conditions reported by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, are less than those specified in --
(1) The certificate holder's operations specifications; or (2) Parts 91 and 97 of this chapter, if the certificate holder's operations specifications do not specify takeoff minimums for the airport.


This is pretty easy. 121.651(a)(1). Opspecs rule. They are FAA approved. End of discussion. If your opspecs say you can do jato takoffs from grass strips, you can.

You guys that think you need 3 rvr's for take off are ignorant morons. Those are landing only. WTF do you care what the rvr is 9000 feet down the runway?

It's obvious, in these 6 pages, about 3 guys understand the rules they fly under.

Are you aware that you do need 3 RVR's if you use 300 RVR? The ignorant morons comment was not necessary.

 

[gunfyter]

Are you aware that you do need 3 RVR's if you use 300 RVR? The ignorant morons comment was not necessary.

300 RVR?

 

[rustypigeon]

If you think that Jepps are controlling then you are doing your company a disservice, (unless you enjoy making the extra $$ waiting for RVR's to go up!) Please call your training department and talk to one of your in-house sim instructors. They will tell you that ops specs dictate when you can takeoff, not Jeppesen.
I have to stop reading this thread, its too irritating for a Saturday afternoon. Have a good weekend.

I have worked for one 135 operator and two different 121 operators, all of which were issued the op specs to use lower than standard minimums. I never knew there was this much confusion on the issue. At every operator I have worked for, if the jepps had a higher requirement than the op specs, we had to use the more restrictive.

At my current company, we were approved to use 5/5/5 long before any of the airports we served were approved to use 5/5/5. It was common knowledge among the pilots and the training dept that we effectively wouldn't be able to go below 6/6/6 because no airport we served had takeoff mins lower than that, as dictated in the Jepps.

The 121 company I worked for prior had the same interpretation. I was able to find my old FOM and this is what it says verbatim....

Takeoff minimums applicable to all Part 121 Operators are published on the Jeppesen Approach Charts for each airport in the block titled 'Takeoff'. At some airports, obstructions or other factors require the establishment of higher than standard takeoff minimums and/or IFR departure procedures to assist pilots during an IFR climbout.

I had never heard a disagreement on what this meant in the 3 different companies, and hundreds of pilots I have flown with... That is, until I read this thread.

 

[Kenny]

This thread is extremely worrying because when you can or can't legally take off shouldn't ever be in question or a gray area.

The 10-9 is always the lowest required vis. Just because your ops-specs allow you to launch with a lower visibility requirement does not mean you can disregard the requirements of the 10-9.

Think of it this way, where I work we are authorised to do ILS approaches down to 1800rvr with the AP and FD. However, if the requirements on the approach plate are higher, it doesn't mean I can disregard them and do the approach anyway.

Guys, rather than argue or rely on Website hearsay, this might be a really good time to talk to your respective training depts and find out for yourselves.

 

[TapitLight]

I was the original poster on this thread and someone had asked which flight I was that morning out of those listed KSBN departures.

I was due off at 6:01am we ended up being out at around 9:00 am. So we got to witness the only two Part 121 departures during that 3 hour period of 1/8sm visibility, the Pinnacle flights.

ASH7217

Departure Status Details
Airport: (SBN) South Bend Regional
City: South Bend, IN, US Scheduled: 6:04 AM - Thu Feb 26, 2009 Actual: 8:57 AM - Thu Feb 26, 2009


Arrival Status Details
Airport: (ORD) O'Hare International Airport
City: Chicago, IL, US Scheduled: 6:01 AM - Thu Feb 26, 2009 Actual: 9:52 AM - Thu Feb 26, 2009 (runway) Landed on runway 231 min later than scheduled at gate.

 

[deadstick]

WOW!

I feel like I should fill out a NASA form for just reading this thread.

Yep...

 

[Metro752]

I will LOL if the FAA subpoenas user information for enforcement action here.

WTF guys, how do you not know what the rules are flying around in 50+ seat jet airplanes???

 

[ChickenSled]

I was the original poster on this thread and someone had asked which flight I was that morning out of those listed KSBN departures.

I was due off at 6:01am we ended up being out at around 9:00 am. So we got to witness the only two Part 121 departures during that 3 hour period of 1/8sm visibility, the Pinnacle flights.

ASH7217

Departure Status Details
Airport: (SBN) South Bend Regional
City: South Bend, IN, US Scheduled: 6:04 AM - Thu Feb 26, 2009 Actual: 8:57 AM - Thu Feb 26, 2009


Arrival Status Details
Airport: (ORD) O'Hare International Airport
City: Chicago, IL, US Scheduled: 6:01 AM - Thu Feb 26, 2009 Actual: 9:52 AM - Thu Feb 26, 2009 (runway) Landed on runway 231 min later than scheduled at gate.

I'm just asking, because during the time frame you describe, flightaware shows me 7 different aircraft getting out of there before you. 1 Commutair, 1 ASA, 1 CHQ, 3 Pinnacle, and a King Air.

You are saying the only departures were two Pinnacle flights. So, either there is a major bug with flightaware where it makes up 5 flights which never happened, or there is something really wrong with your story. Which one is it?


ASH7217 CRJ2Chicago O'Hare Intl (KORD)Thu 10:18 ESTThu 09:53 CSTThu 09:35 CST
FLG2941 CRJ2Detroit Metro Wayne Co (KDTW)Thu 08:34 ESTThu 09:09 ESTThu 09:00 EST
N930MC BE9L(CY72)Thu 08:17 ESTThu 14:33 GMTThu 14:23 GMT
FLG2890 CRJ2Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP)Thu 07:32 ESTThu 07:37 CSTThu 07:37 CST
CHQ6045 E145N Kentucky Intl (KCVG)Thu 06:47 ESTThu 07:27 ESTThu 07:21 EST
FLG2354 CRJ2Detroit Metro Wayne Co (KDTW)Thu 06:42 ESTThu 07:17 ESTThu 07:08 EST
ASQ5303 CRJ2Hartsfield-Jackson Intl (KATL)Thu 06:41 ESTThu 08:13 ESTThu 08:11 EST
UCA8732 DH8BCleveland-Hopkins Intl (KCLE)Thu 06:08 ESTThu 07:07 ESTThu 06:54 EST