Takeoff Mins/Pinnacle Ops Specs

[J32driver]

I used the "Disaster" that is LIDO for a bit at my airline. I vaguely remember that takeoff minimums were not contained with the airport charts. I thought we had to go to a separate section at the front (almost like notams) in order to find the takeoff mins that applied to an airport.

No matter what though, the lack of understanding by the majority of Pinnacle guys in this thread is absolutely astounding. It might be the fault of your training department, but I hope your POI finds out about this thread and starts asking some real hard questions of your checkairmen. If the 9E checkairmen are teaching things like you guys say.... I would NOT want to be anywhere near the training house when the POI shows up.

 

[LHRCrewDog]

AVBUG

Thank you! Your post was spot-on. I was getting sick to my stoamch reading this thread until I read your post. I do not know if you put this down, but if there is a ceiling requirement put into the jepps, then you are not able to reduce.

Eric Pogo

 

[Ratherbsurfing]

And contrary to the previous poster who admonished the original poster as a tattletale, I commend the original post since it raised awareness of a potentially confusing issue, and hopefully will keep some future crews out of trouble.[/quote]

I commend anyone who comes on here to raise awareness and learn as well. It's refreshing in fact and the only reason I bother checking this website any longer really. However, I'm a little suspect of a person's motives when instead of being vague about an incident like this they instead point out particular airlines at particular airports at particular times on particular days.

 

[JustaNumber]

I commend anyone who comes on here to raise awareness and learn as well. It's refreshing in fact and the only reason I bother checking this website any longer really. However, I'm a little suspect of a person's motives when instead of being vague about an incident like this they instead point out particular airlines at particular airports at particular times on particular days.

I think he felt he needed to post the details so we could all look at the exact airport, the exact charts, the exact weather, the specific airlines involved's ops specs, etc. The tone of his posts is much more intellectual than vindictive, so I don't think he had any kind of sinister motives. I'll agree, perhaps he could have waited a few days and left the date out, so as to protect the guilty. Regardless, I'm glad he posted. And I hope the guilty have read this thread.

 

[titans10]

Non 121 crews and equipment.

think again

 

[Bart Simpson]

I can't hold back, after ten pages I feel the need to add something as well.

At my copmany (think banana and mexican food to guess where I work), we actually went through exactly what you guys are talking about: Can I take off based on my OpSpecs or my 10-9 page?

And EVERYONE had an opinion about it until the FAA finally made its way into the discussion and their response was very simple: If the numbers published by the airport through Jepp, LIDO, NACO are higher than what your lower than standard opspec authorize, you MUST abide by the published numbers.

If you are in BFE and the airport published 1600RVR, you CAN NOT take off at 1000RVR even if your OpSpecs tell you that the lowest you can go is 6/6/6 (btw, if you have 6/6/6, you can probably go at 6/6, so that technically would be the lowest possible); ASSuming, of course, that you actually looked at NOTAMs.

BUT do not EVER use the published Alternate Minimums unless your company paid a premium to have your company specific ones printed.

This was fun. Kind of reminds me of the whole discussion about ice and flying.

Question of the week for all you 121 guys: Can I fly through a SEVERE ICING SIGMET?


Get some coffee and discuss amongst yourselves.


"never fo(o)llow, always question"

 

[Hugh Johnson]

I have to eat my words. I've been flying 91 too long. Here is the current FAA runway minimum list. SBN supports 1600 RVR. Even if you have 5/5/5 authorized, you can't use it. My bad.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...tatus_lists/media/LTS_Take_Off_Minima_Pub.xls

 

[Sig]

Well, it isn't "just is" ..."it" comes from a form 8260. which the FAA prepares and from which ALL chart manufacturers obtain the information.

I, as is Avbug, am shocked at some of the interpretations I've read here. Just do a loaded take-off in a larger airplane and you would see why the roll-out RVR is important on take-off. Have an engine fail after V1 and you will have explored both ends of almost every runway if you are heavy.

Ding ding.

My biggest WTF over this thread was "where's the fire?" It took Avbug (you too, Don) to 'splain what we're chatting about.

 

[s3jetman]

wow 10 pages and i have not seen it so here it is

"Mesa Sucks!!!!"

 

[rustypigeon]

FAA finally made its way into the discussion and their response was very simple: If the numbers published by the airport through Jepp, LIDO, NACO are higher than what your lower than standard opspec authorize, you MUST abide by the published numbers.

Cliff notes for this entire thread right here ^. This is the final answer.

 

[cale42]

Wow this is scary...

You can't go below published minimums. Period. Ever.

Op specs are the lowest possible. My ops specs says I can go as low as half a mile on a non precision approach too.. but I can't do that if the approach doesn't allow it.

C056 says you can can use any applicable lower than standard IF there are no published minimums.

Whoever thought they could land with 1800 even if it isn't published is dead wrong as well.

Quite simply you can't go below published minimums ever. With a HUD you can have op specs down to 300 RVR for takeoff.. but you can only do it on runways that are approved for that.

Its always the highest of op specs or published.

cale

 

[SEVEN]

I can't hold back, after ten pages I feel the need to add something as well.

At my copmany (think banana and mexican food to guess where I work), we actually went through exactly what you guys are talking about: Can I take off based on my OpSpecs or my 10-9 page?

And EVERYONE had an opinion about it until the FAA finally made its way into the discussion and their response was very simple: If the numbers published by the airport through Jepp, LIDO, NACO are higher than what your lower than standard opspec authorize, you MUST abide by the published numbers.

If you are in BFE and the airport published 1600RVR, you CAN NOT take off at 1000RVR even if your OpSpecs tell you that the lowest you can go is 6/6/6 (btw, if you have 6/6/6, you can probably go at 6/6, so that technically would be the lowest possible); ASSuming, of course, that you actually looked at NOTAMs.

BUT do not EVER use the published Alternate Minimums unless your company paid a premium to have your company specific ones printed.

This was fun. Kind of reminds me of the whole discussion about ice and flying.

Question of the week for all you 121 guys: Can I fly through a SEVERE ICING SIGMET?


Get some coffee and discuss amongst yourselves.


"never fo(o)llow, always question"

Unbelievable. The guys supporting the Pinnacle guys still don't get it. Mesaba is authorized per ops specs to depart with 600RVR. It doesn't mean we can do it anywhere.
I'll say it again. 121 carriers CANNOT takeoff SBN below 1600RVR. Why? The airport/runways do not have the equipement to support a 1000rvr takeoff.
PERIOD! We can talk about ops specs all day long but this thread is using them out of context.
Those of you that think Pinnacle can use their ops spec minimums for takeoff at any airport they want are dangerously misguided. This will bite many of you someday.

Please someone explain to me how Pinnacle is legal to depart any airport they want at 600RVR or 1000 rvr. I would like to hear this.

 

[rustypigeon]

Now that we are at an understanding (hopefully) of Op Specs vs. Jepps, I am going to throw a wrench in the works. I think this fits well along the same subject lines.

Lets say your Op Specs allow you to go down to 500. We are departing out of LGA Runway 31. The Jepps say that you can go down to 500 (assume all lighting is working). Looking at the notams, you see this...

!FDC 6/7120 LGA FI/T LA GUARDIA, NEW YORK, NY. TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS AND (OBSTACLE) DEPARTURE PROCEDURES... TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS: RWY 31, 300-1 1/2 OR STANDARD WITH A MINIMUM CLIMB OF 260 FEET PER NM TO 400. REST OF DATA REMAINS AS PUBLISHED.

What is the lowest visibility you can have to depart runway 31? (assume you can climb at least 260ft/nm)

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

That doesnt specify lighting systems required. I would say you can still go down to the 10-9 mins for what lighting systems are working or ops specs, whichever are higher.

I'll need to do some digging into my Airway Manual though to make sure....

 

[BoilerUP]

This is for a 135 operator's specific OpSpecs, but looks like its flow might be applicable to the discussion here...

Takeoff Minimums Flow Chart