Three questions about the Q-400 trim and deice system.

[Icywings]

Does the Q have some sort of audible alert to let the pilots know if the trim was being activated by the Autopilot? If so, is it something one would notice if it were often activated during that stage of the approach.

Second question: I understand you can get a deice disconnect or malfunction on low RPM which makes sense as there is a lack of air pressure from the engine. Has anyone heard of this or can anyone tell me more about it and how obvious it is to the pilots.

Third Question: If they pilots is there an SOP telling you to switch from 3 minute to 1 minute on the deice system at a certain stage of an approach or icing condition. Could the crew have left it in 3 which would contribute to the crash?

 

[CX880]

Just let it go. Are we goinig to have these threads every other day now? The media is already calling it pilot error, let's not try to come up with something over here as well.

 

[Icywings]

I am trying to help stop the media just blame the pilots. Trust me on this! Answer these for me please. Then I can correct things being reported on CNN and on Foxnews. Thanks!!! I am a pilot as well!!! I think it is unfair that they are blaming the pilots.

 

[ace6453]

Does the Q have some sort of audible alert to let the pilots know if the trim was being activated by the Autopilot? If so, is it something one would notice if it were often activated during that stage of the approach.

Second question: I understand you can get a deice disconnect or malfunction on low RPM which makes sense as there is a lack of air pressure from the engine. Has anyone heard of this or can anyone tell me more about it and how obvious it is to the pilots.

Third Question: If they pilots is there an SOP telling you to switch from 3 minute to 1 minute on the deice system at a certain stage of an approach or icing condition. Could the crew have left it in 3 which would contribute to the crash?

how many sites do you plan on posting this on?

 

[Icywings]

as many as I can until I get until someone stops dicking with me and will just answer me. Can you please post on the http://www.airlinepilotforums.com that I am a member here since 2002 pls? They keep thinking I am new and with the media because of my screen name.

 

[CX880]

Does the Q have some sort of audible alert to let the pilots know if the trim was being activated by the Autopilot? If so, is it something one would notice if it were often activated during that stage of the approach.

Second question: I understand you can get a deice disconnect or malfunction on low RPM which makes sense as there is a lack of air pressure from the engine. Has anyone heard of this or can anyone tell me more about it and how obvious it is to the pilots.

Third Question: If they pilots is there an SOP telling you to switch from 3 minute to 1 minute on the deice system at a certain stage of an approach or icing condition. Could the crew have left it in 3 which would contribute to the crash?

Either you have very bad grammar or you have no idea what you are trying to ask. Which leads me to believe that you are not a pilot. As far as the third question, who cares the only ones that will know for sure were the pilots and the NTSB whenever they complete the investigation. And I'm confused are you trying to not make it seem like pilot error or not , look at your last sentence.....

 

[Icywings]

Either you have very bad grammar or you have no idea what you are trying to ask. Which leads me to believe that you are not a pilot. As far as the third question, who cares the only ones that will know for sure were the pilots and the NTSB whenever they complete the investigation. And I'm confused are you trying to not make it seem like pilot error or not , look at your last sentence.....

I am trying to type very quickly sorry. Yes, I am trying to provide other explanations to get the media to stop saying or focusing on the pilots. As I am typing this Shepard Smith just said the ntsb is focusing on the pilots action. They should focus on other things as well. What if the deice malfunctioned or lost pressure? The pilots couldn't do anything about it at that point. Now they are trying to focus on the damn autopilot again. I want to get them off of this. It makes us look bad. I hate it! STOP fighting me pls and help me.

 

[Jar Jar]

Icywings - if you want to relay something to your media 'connection' tell them to report the NTSB findings verbatim - nothing more.

I just wish the public would become aware of the NTSB's work, and the fact that it is largely IGNORED by the FAA.

Im sure the NTSB will look into any mechanical/deice malfunctions - crash investigations take a very long time to do properly and the folks at the NTSB are very very competent at doing a thorough job. Give them some time.

 

[Icywings]

Icywings - if you want to relay something to your media 'connection' tell them to report the NTSB findings verbatim - nothing more.

I just wish the public would become aware of the NTSB's work, and the fact that it is largely IGNORED by the FAA.

I have and sadly they are. They are just picking and choosing. They want to sensationalize this. If I have some info from Q drivers about the darn plane I can pass that on and get them to at least present other possibilities and that it may very well not be a pilot error. I have heard the Deice can malfunction on approach or lose pressure at low rpm. Did that happen? We won't know until the NTSB can get into it. However, by then these poor pilots will have already been found guilty in the public eye and media. THAT is sooooo wrong it makes me sick and don't want that to happen.

 

[Erlanger]

I have and sadly they are. They are just picking and choosing. They want to sensationalize this. If I have some info from Q drivers about the darn plane I can pass that on and get them to at least present other possibilities and that it may very well not be a pilot error. I have heard the Deice can malfunction on approach or lose pressure at low rpm. Did that happen? We won't know until the NTSB can get into it. However, by then these poor pilots will have already been found guilty in the public eye and media. THAT is sooooo wrong it makes me sick and don't want that to happen.

Maybe if you were more forthcoming and tell us all who you are, you may get more help on this.

You claim to be a member since 2002 but you have only made 1 post in 7 years until this BUF accident. Why the FI hiatus till now? What's your interest in this accident? Do you still fly for Ameriflight?

 

[flynryan15]

Either you have very bad grammar or you have no idea what you are trying to ask. Which leads me to believe that you are not a pilot. .....

After years on this board I have to disagree. His bad grammar proves he is a pilot!!! :laugh:

 

[Icywings]

yea my grammar sucks. I'll give you all that..lol

I was a Metroliner driver for Ameriflight up through 9-11. After 9-11 I couldn't compete with the flight time the senior guys getting laid off had and couldn't get hired. I got a later start then normal as a pilot so by the time I could get hired and looking at the future of the industry and retirement I SADLY decided I couldn't make a long term legit career out of it to where I could support my family with enough income. So, I turned it into a hobby. I have been a member here since 2002 as it says. In fact, I need to update the hours on there. I didn't realize it until a few minutes ago.

 

[ultrarunner]

as many as I can until I get until someone stops dicking with me and will just answer me. Can you please post on the http://www.airlinepilotforums.com that I am a member here since 2002 pls? They keep thinking I am new and with the media because of my screen name.

If I recall correctly, it is FAR Part 25 requirement that a 'trim-in-motion' clacker be installed. However, in some part-25 aircraft, this clacker is inhibited in some configurations, namely with flaps extended. But not in ALL planes.

And in some cases in may be related to weather or not the aircraft has a visual trim-in-motion wheel.

Go take a look at Part-25. It's an easy search on the net.

Ultra

 

[Icywings]

If I recall correctly, it is FAR Part 25 requirement that a 'trim-in-motion' clacker be installed. However, in some part-25 aircraft, this clacker is inhibited in some configurations, namely with flaps extended. But not in ALL planes.

And in some cases in may be related to weather or not the aircraft has a visual trim-in-motion wheel.

Go take a look at Part-25. It's an easy search on the net.

Ultra

Thank you! The 767 does not have any audible indication but others do. I am trying to find out if the Dash 8 has one. Thank you for the reply though!

 

[Raskal]

If I recall correctly, it is FAR Part 25 requirement that a 'trim-in-motion' clacker be installed. However, in some part-25 aircraft, this clacker is inhibited in some configurations, namely with flaps extended. But not in ALL planes.

And in some cases in may be related to weather or not the aircraft has a visual trim-in-motion wheel.

Go take a look at Part-25. It's an easy search on the net.

Ultra

I don't think it has to be a clacker, a light or efis indication also meets the requirements if I remember right-I'm too lazy to actually look it up.

 

[Axel]

Dude-

It doesn't matter what you tell the media. The more responsible among them will misreport it through ignorance of the subject matter, the blood suckers will rape the context and twist it into an unrecognizable shape that gets them ratings. Neither will report it accurately.

As was stated above, the best thing you can do is tell your contacts that if they have any interest at all in the integrity of their profession they will read and/or print verbatim, without opinion, what is released by the NTSB in their press releases and news conferences. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Icywings]

Dude-

It doesn't matter what you tell the media. The more responsible among them will misreport it through ignorance of the subject matter, the blood suckers will rape the context and twist it into an unrecognizable shape that gets them ratings. Neither will report it accurately.

As was stated above, the best thing you can do is tell your contacts that if they have any interest at all in the integrity of their profession they will read and/or print verbatim, without opinion, what is released by the NTSB in their press releases and news conferences. Nothing more, nothing less.

I do have the ear of the producers. They can get it right if I can get them the right info. They are reporting what is said just not all of it. I agree they need to do it.

 

[CX880]

They can get it right if I can get them the right info. .

No one has the right info, only the NTSB does.

 

[BirdCatcher]

I do have the ear of the producers. They can get it right if I can get them the right info. They are reporting what is said just not all of it. I agree they need to do it.

Well then tell them to just report the news, and stop making it. Read the NTSB briefing from a teleprompter, how hard is that?

 

[Axel]

That is exactly my point. Tell the producers that the only people who have all the right information is the NTSB. Tell them that if they report verbatim what the NTSB releases - nothing more, nothing less - they will have accurately reported all the facts that are known at that time.

If they need to explain what stick pusher is, have a professional pilot, qualified in type, as their expert; not the first private pilot Cessna owner they can grab off the street muddying up the water in the name of 15 minutes fame.

In short, tell your producer friends to report responsibly.

That's all the help you are going to get from me. I am not qualified on a Dash 8, and I am not NTSB. I have nothing further to offer.

 

[BirdCatcher]

Here's an idea, howabout they read the stimulus package on the air all the way through, that'll kill some airtime instead of drawing conclusions from their "experts"

 

[kf4amu]

Thank you! The 767 does not have any audible indication but others do. I am trying to find out if the Dash 8 has one. Thank you for the reply though!

100/300 doesnt. The trim wheel just moves.

 

[Icywings]

Here's an idea, howabout they read the stimulus package on the air all the way through, that'll kill some airtime instead of drawing conclusions from their "experts"

LOL !

Unfortunately they can't just read the NTSB report. Every news cast only gives them enough time to basically give an outline of what was said. They pick and choose what parts to report. Then they have to translate it for the general public. THAT is where we get so many damn idiiots like the 300 hour CFI with no turbo-prop time to report their expert opinion.That is how the news works and no matter what we do it won't change. All we can do is give them the correct outline to report. So, THEY don't pick and choose but we guide them to choose the correct parts of the story. Yes, the pilots ARE going to be brought into this and that is because of the auto-pilot and the arm chair quarterbacks will always ask if they should have had it on when it was recommended not to by the ntsb. These are people that never fly and have no idea what they are talking about. I am trying to get into the ear of the producers to at least make it balanced at the very least.

 

[Icywings]

100/300 doesn't. The trim wheel just moves.

Okay thanks! So unless you are looking at the trim wheel you would have no idea the autopilot was moving the trim?

 

[ehaecker]

Okay thanks! So unless you are looking at the trim wheel you would have no idea the autopilot was moving the trim?

I think you would hear the trim wheel. I remember from my jumpseat experiences on the 737 that the trim wheel made plenty of noise while in motion. I can only assume the 767 is the same.

 

[Icywings]

I think you would hear the trim wheel. I remember from my jumpseat experiences on the 737 that the trim wheel made plenty of noise while in motion. I can only assume the 767 is the same.

Yea the 737 does make noise so the pilots know it is in motion. The 767 doesn't make a sound I am told from a 767 captain. I am curious to know the Q400 makes any audible sound or not.

 

[JetSpeed219]

It makes a very light clicking sound that you can only hear if you are really listening for it.

 

[Icywings]

It makes a very light clicking sound that you can only hear if you are really listening for it.

Great, so if autopilot was engaged, the plane took on ice and kept the trim wheel moving to compensate that would be pretty obvious to the crew right? Because common sense tells me if the trim was going more so then normal the crew would notice it and wonder why. However, if the click wasn't working the crew would have little knowledge of what was happening. I wonder if the click is something that can fail or if it is a mechanical device.

Your a Q400 pilot what is the media getting wrong about a possible cause. I know we all need to find out what the final NTSB report says but in the meantime is there anything you can give me to divert this from pilot error? I hate seeing them being hung out to dry like this.

Have you had the same deice disconnect that I have heard from others?

 

[anon]

Icywings,

You obviously have no idea of what you are speaking about. I sincerely believe you are trying to pawn yourself off to some news department as an aviation expert.

The only facts are those provided by the NTSB. That's it.

I've always wondered how they found these aviation "experts" to interview. From your posts, I believe you're the one approaching them. Are you trying to compensate for your own lack of experience or what.

Please let the NTSB do their job and let these people rest in peace.

 

[DX Rick]

Your a Q400 pilot what is the media getting wrong about a possible cause. I know we all need to find out what the final NTSB report says but in the meantime is there anything you can give me to divert this from pilot error? I hate seeing them being hung out to dry like this.

Have you had the same deice disconnect that I have heard from others?

What has everyone else here been telling you? Tell your friend to read the NTSB report, thats it.
Now you're here asking a pilot to give his OPINIONS!
Are you slow? did you lick the windows on the short bus?
The medias "aviation experts" are a joke in itself. Are you trying to one up those guys? Are you trying to replace one of them?
You wonder why no one wants to answer you.