Some Delta/NWA route swaps......

[DTW320]

Oh don't worry, I won't, or, for that matter, the guys I talk to, and the guys they talk to want nothing from NWA.Fortunately, for the sake of you and the "guys you talk to", DAL management DID want "something" from NWA. We just want to keep our A/C and bases. Yours are ours and ours are yours.....there was a merger....you should look it up and then get on with your perfect little life there sport.Can you say the same? The fact of the matter is NWA ended up way ahead on this SLI. How far ahead are we in 8 to 10 years? Are you ignorant or just too biased to admit that the average NWA pilot is losing close to double digit relative seniority % a short distance down the road?But that doesn't matter right? All that matters is that your 2 year left seat may not happen like you planned. :crying::crying::crying:. Let's just hope the largest AEs are before SOC, I know that sucks for you guys, and you will probably try to file a griveance to delay it. After all that, enjoy our equipment and bases, your union did a heck of job for you all, I wish I could say the same thing about my union.

It's over. Nobody owes you anything.

The stagnation will be thanks to your pilot groupfor at least 5 years. 1000 retirements are nothing in a 12000+ pilotgroup, if I am lucky to keep my job.If you lose your job it will be with a lot of NWA pilots that were hired 7 years before you. Yet you are the one whining. Impressive. Oh, and if it happens, enjoy the left seat of the E175 at Compass vs the unemployment line.....YOUR WELCOME.

I got to go, December 29th ATL at 9:00PM is about 50 degrees and I am having a bbq, you enjoy your ice fishing.

21:45...kinda late for a BBQ. Looks like it's in the low 40's....why don't ya just head on over to Williamson Bros. instead

 

[General Lee]

I concur there will be a lot of opportunities for those of either pre-merger group who want to domicile out of DTW or MSP, especially for those who live there.

NWA is not DAL. I am hoping the NWA folks living on base will stay put. As far as DAL pilots taking over your bases, and drooling over jumping on A330, A320, or DC9, don't worry, we won't, well maybe the 20 or 25 guys who enjoy the -30 degrees temperature you all just had..... Can you say the same about NWA pilots? No, you can not. At the first opportunity you all have you'll be displacing a bunch of DAL pilots, and feel really proud for sticking it to DAL

I'm sure there will be due consideration given by the mid-90's FNWA hires not to bid what their seniority can hold post SOC so as not to cause any whining by 07' FDAL hires.......:smash:

Whining 07 RDAL hire who was expecting to upgrade within 2 years, less than 200 numbers from Cpt right now, before they shoved this merger down our throats. The stagnation will be thanks to your pilot group for at least 5 years. 1000 retirements are nothing in a 12000+ pilot group, if I am lucky to keep my job.

I got to go, December 29th ATL at 9:00PM is about 50 degrees and I am having a bbq, you enjoy your ice fishing.

And I thought I MADE US LOOK BAD sometimes.... Come on dude. Really, you are stressing out a bit too much here. You will undoubtably get bumped from your quick upgrade time that you thought you had, but in the longrun we will all be better for it. You can't expect much as a relative newhire. If we have a bid before SOC, you can guarantee you won't be 3000 numbers close to MD88 captain. You won't. Some senior FO (not me---waiting for the 73N) will snatch that MD88A slot from you. Did you see how senior the last bid went? The 76ER in ATL went to guys with over 12 years here---for FOs. You are lucky to be flying what you currently have, and hopefully you can continue to do so. If not, take the punches and roll with it. Really, there is no need to keep fighting with these NWA guys. It is fun to spar every once and awhile, but that is about it. The SLI is over. Take it down a notch.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

General,

Delta pilots had every right to expect status quo. Although I'll get a small bump mid career, the bump does not nearly make up for the differences in the fleet and pay NWA brings to the mix. Really this works out to be about a seven to ten year set back and most of us are too old to ever make up the difference.

I never applied to NWA and would not have left my prior job to work at NWA. There is nothing about NWA's operation that appeals to me.

If FNWA pilots don't want to return from furlough to fly their equipment out of their bases for a whole lot more longevity pay than I'll make, then I sure as heck don't want to be forced up there. They applied for that job, I didn't.

My family and I have already decided. If displaced, I'm going back to corporate flying. Delta is a great gig while it lasts, but I'm not moving and not commuting. No way, no how, just "aint" worth it.

Some Mesaba spiky hair'd IPOD wearing, backpack toter can flow up and enjoy the DC9.

 

[General Lee]

Delta pilots had every right to expect status quo.

I never applied to NWA and would not have left my prior job to work at NWA. There is nothing about NWA's operation that appeals to me.

If displaced, I'm hoping for long term leave. A job working in the former NWA system is not worth commuting to and sure not worth moving for.

If FNWA pilots don't want to return from furlough to fly their equipment out of their bases for a whole lot more longevity pay than I'll make, then I sure as heck don't want to be forced up there. They applied for that job, I didn't. I will not go.

My family and I have already decided. If displaced, I'm going back to corporate flying. Delta is a great gig while it lasts, but I'm not moving and not commuting. No way, no how, just "aint" worth it.

After 9-11 a lot of our guys got bumped down, and of course a lot got furloughed. The 767B got very senior, since we parked a lot of 737-200s and 727s, and some of their captains moved over to the 767B. I was lucky to stay on it, but I was a junior line holder doing a lot of allnighters. That is the way it goes sometimes, and things change fairly fast. A few years can be a blink of the eye in the grand scheme of things. And, regardless you will still keep a window seat. Back in '91 or 92 when they furloughed, some guys were sent to the FE panel for years.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

General - all you write is true. But this is not the result of a terrorist attack. This is the result of the Delta MEC getting on board with this merger and taking the high road while the NWA MEC enjoyed playing the spoiler & reaping the benefits.

There is a difference.

The Delta MEC probably did the right thing for Delta as a whole. Everyone's results are personal and specific to their particular set of circumstances. With a paid off home and hangar, family and a life time of friends, as well a lot of involvement in local activities being able to hold ATL is the deal for my family.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Most of the junior NWA DC-9 FOs will probably stay DC-9 FOs for a while. There is, however, a very large contingent of senior NWA B757 FOs who be be very interested in the B767ER and an easier commute.

Given the nature of NWA's 757 operations, aren't these pilots already 767ER pilots? Same pay & category, right?

Wouldn't this only be a domicile change for them?

 

[FBN0223]

Given the nature of NWA's 757 operations, aren't these pilots already 767ER pilots? Same pay & category, right?

Wouldn't this only be a domicile change for them?

Yes for many it will be just that. I am sure some differences training would be involved. I guess my point is that many of thousands of NWA pilots who commute to DTW and MSP will be at least interested in making the move to ATL, JFK, SLC or LAX.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I don't think the 757/767 will be moving in that direction. No bump, no flush.

 

[Fly4hire]

You can't expect much as a relative newhire. If we have a bid before SOC, you can guarantee you won't be 3000 numbers close to MD88 captain. You won't. Some senior FO (not me---waiting for the 73N) will snatch that MD88A slot from you. Did you see how senior the last bid went? The 76ER in ATL went to guys with over 12 years here---for FOs. You are lucky to be flying what you currently have, and hopefully you can continue to do so. If not, take the punches and roll with it. Really, there is no need to keep fighting with these NWA guys. It is fun to spar every once and awhile, but that is about it. The SLI is over. Take it down a notch.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I love it - GL - the new "Voice of Reason" Concur 100%. There might be some short term benefit in initial base and equipment bids for mid-grade FNWA F/O's, but the long term favors the FDAL pilots. The "2 yr" Captain is sort of like the $15K"special" Mercedes on the dealers lot - it's never there when you get there.

Seriously, there will be some serious opportunities early on in DTW and MSP, and if CVG which is pretty senior closes or downsizes DTW is driving distance....

 

[Fly4hire]

General,

Delta pilots had every right to expect status quo. Although I'll get a small bump mid career, the bump does not nearly make up for the differences in the fleet and pay NWA brings to the mix.

Puleeze. What did the arbitrators say about expectations in this career?

Really this works out to be about a seven to ten year set back and most of us are too old to ever make up the difference.

So you are 55? If you have 10+ years to go, you will do far better in the long run than a similar age/seniority FWNA pilot - guaranteed.


I never applied to NWA and would not have left my prior job to work at NWA. There is nothing about NWA's operation that appeals to me.

Then quit.

My family and I have already decided. If displaced, I'm going back to corporate flying.

Your call, but I think that would be a decision you would live to regret, sooner than later

Delta is a great gig while it lasts, but I'm not moving and not commuting. No way, no how, just "aint" worth it.

Dude, you are working for the biggest airline in the world with the best route network and future by a country mile. Can you think of any other airline that has a better future right now? You've been here how long? Before you do something stupid I suggest you get the counsel of some senior Captains who have been in the game for a few decades.

Some Mesaba spiky hair'd IPOD wearing, backpack toter can flow up and enjoy the DC9.

That's PCL....

................

 

[aewanabe]

Fins, your posts are usually spot on, but did you seriously say you're too good for a DC-9? How many years did you spend at ASA waiting for a mainline job? Be glad NWA is at least bringing 100-seat mainline jets to your property and you guys actually have mainline pay rates to fly them for Chrissakes! And I don't know how well you know the Mesaba pilot group but if any of those guys ever get to enjoy the "trickle up" it's gonna be grey-hairs just as old as you. I guess it's true that a fair merger is one where everyone is pissed. Happy New Year.

 

[General Lee]

I don't know where Fins sits in the pile, but I don't think he would have to go to DC9 if he didn't have to. Most people are established at where they want to live, and some do live in the bases. I know DTW has many commuters, but not all want to migrate south to ATL, with some taking CVG or JFK which might be closer to their home. Many will go West too. But 30% of the DTW base does not commute, and those people will stay and move up in seniority, and like it. I would advise Fins not to leave, and just roll with the punches for a few years. When the FNWA guys start to bail, things will open up again.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Fly4hire]

I don't know where Fins sits in the pile, but I don't think he would have to go to DC9 if he didn't have to. Most people are established at where they want to live, and some do live in the bases. I know DTW has many commuters, but not all want to migrate south to ATL, with some taking CVG or JFK which might be closer to their home. Many will go West too. But 30% of the DTW base does not commute, and those people will stay and move up in seniority, and like it. I would advise Fins not to leave, and just roll with the punches for a few years. When the FNWA guys start to bail, things will open up again.

Bye Bye--General Lee

GL, I don't think guys are going to bid to ATL or any other base because it's a DAL base. Like you said 70% of our airline commutes - they'll balance ease of commute against the position they can hold.

We have a number of guys that live driving distance to ATL or JFK, but otherwise it's still a commute, and from what I have seen on DAL non-rev lists out of LGA and DFW going to ATL, I see more DAL guys bidding DTW or MSP to ease the commute.

I really don't know what all the teeth-gnashing and hand wring is about - there will be no bump and flush, and you can't bid it in seniority unless there are openings. Hopefully there will be a minimum of base/equipment realignments, and the rest are new bases open to bid by all.

 

[another cfii]

GL, I don't think guys are going to bid to ATL or any other base because it's a DAL base. Like you said 70% of our airline commutes - they'll balance ease of commute against the position they can hold.

We have a number of guys that live driving distance to ATL or JFK, but otherwise it's still a commute, and from what I have seen on DAL non-rev lists out of LGA and DFW going to ATL, I see more DAL guys bidding DTW or MSP to ease the commute.

I really don't know what all the teeth-gnashing and hand wring is about - there will be no bump and flush, and you can't bid it in seniority unless there are openings. Hopefully there will be a minimum of base/equipment realignments, and the rest are new bases open to bid by all.

I think our junior folks at FDL concerns are that once SOC completes, the company starts to "realign" a/c around, the new openings will be available to all of us, but the displacements out of those bases where most of us live in base will be mostly FDL folks.

The problem is that even if they displace only 1 category, senior FDL Joe will bump junior FDL Jack into a different category. This "cascading" effect is unknown to most of us right now.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fly4Hire:

Why are you writing, "Puleeze. What did the arbitrators say about expectations in this career?"

The arbitrators tossed status quo (the real here and now) away while honoring the expectation of attrition among the NWA pilots. Can you explain your point in light of the "pull out and plug in" which effectively moved the junior NWA pilots by 548 numbers?

I think our junior folks at FDL concerns are that once SOC completes, the company starts to "realign" a/c around, the new openings will be available to all of us, but the displacements out of those bases where most of us live in base will be mostly FDL folks.

The problem is that even if they displace only 1 category, senior FDL Joe will bump junior FDL Jack into a different category. This "cascading" effect is unknown to most of us right now.

Exactly. Add the variable to new categories that will be bid up by NWA pilots looking to make the most of their current seniority bump and there is no where for the displaced Delta pilot to go, but north.

Then again, this is likely to play out that the NWA guys chase the airplanes and not the bases. There might be a reprieve in the form of NWA guys not wanting to bid the smaller aircraft in Atlanta.

Fins, did you seriously say you're too good for a DC-9? How many years did you spend at ASA waiting for a mainline job?

The point was that a DC9 job was not worth leaving the top 30% of a regional unless you were really young and could take the pay cut until you made the left seat. When you look at the future value of present dollars in a spreadsheet, it took 2 years to break even at FedEx, 3 at Delta, then there was a large drop down to Continental and Airtran. For NWA, it was about 12 years to break even and earn back the lost income at your old rates ... so no, I would not have picked NWA, or even Continental for that matter.

However, Fins would be a very happy pay protected DC9 pilot out of ATL. It isn't the airplane that's the concern. Glad the DC9 is hanging around a little longer, I hear it flies nicer than the MD88 too.

 

[General Lee]

GL, I don't think guys are going to bid to ATL or any other base because it's a DAL base. Like you said 70% of our airline commutes - they'll balance ease of commute against the position they can hold.

We have a number of guys that live driving distance to ATL or JFK, but otherwise it's still a commute, and from what I have seen on DAL non-rev lists out of LGA and DFW going to ATL, I see more DAL guys bidding DTW or MSP to ease the commute.

I really don't know what all the teeth-gnashing and hand wring is about - there will be no bump and flush, and you can't bid it in seniority unless there are openings. Hopefully there will be a minimum of base/equipment realignments, and the rest are new bases open to bid by all.

The guys who are doing the teeth gnashing are fairly junior, which is probably the reason. They worry about the possibility of losing their spots, even though that may not happen. They may not even lose their base, with a possible downgrade as the worst that could happen. That is better than a furlough that many had to endure after 9-11. Being hired right into the right seat of a 767 was an amazing accomplishment, and something that was never guaranteed. If they somehow lose that seat, I am sure they will get it back sooner than later. In the meantime, if they do, they should try to find a plane that is acceptable and ride it out. Also, as you say, people will balance out aircraft and commute. If they live closer to ATL but could only be a reserve there, versus being a line holder on something in DTW and having a better QOL all together, they may stick with DTW. People in the middle will suddenly shoot up to the top of the lists in DTW, and that may disuade EVERYONE from trying to bid ATL or LAX. A commute isn't bad if you get every holiday off in the process.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I think our junior folks at FDL concerns are that once SOC completes, the company starts to "realign" a/c around, the new openings will be available to all of us, but the displacements out of those bases where most of us live in base will be mostly FDL folks.

The problem is that even if they displace only 1 category, senior FDL Joe will bump junior FDL Jack into a different category. This "cascading" effect is unknown to most of us right now.

That could be true. FNWA pilots may not be able to bump and flush our junior guys, but our guys might be able to if they don't want to follow planes to SEA or MSP. If that is the case, and you want to stay in base, find the plane that is acceptable to you (even the MD88) and stay on it until you can hold 757/767 again in ATL or wherever. Hey, A330 in ATL may have a spot or two, and you never know what you can hold until you bid it. Remember a lot of guys will be bidding up to 777 FO in the next few years, which will help junior DL guys when some fleets leave ATL to other places. I hope each airline gets a large bid prior to the SOC, although I don't know if DL would want that due to training overlaps.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[another cfii]

That could be true. FNWA pilots may not be able to bump and flush our junior guys, but our guys might be able to if they don't want to follow planes to SEA or MSP. If that is the case, and you want to stay in base, find the plane that is acceptable to you (even the MD88) and stay on it until you can hold 757/767 again in ATL or wherever. Hey, A330 in ATL may have a spot or two, and you never know what you can hold until you bid it. Remember a lot of guys will be bidding up to 777 FO in the next few years, which will help junior DL guys when some fleets leave ATL to other places. I hope each airline gets a large bid prior to the SOC, although I don't know if DL would want that due to training overlaps.

Bye Bye--General Lee

As someone junior out west, The smallest gauge a/c we have is the 73 (LAX) and the M90(SLC), which is what most of us junior folks are on. We have no where else to bid down to. I'd be more than happy to fly a CRJ if they build a base out west. So unless they're building a comparable sized new fleet out in the west, i.e. SLC A320, SEA 7ER... that equates to the net loss to our current SLC/LAX fleets, we'll be flushed out to ATL MD88, or even JFK MD88. And once SOC completes (which we know it's sooner rather than later), and all of our west coast bases open up, most of the FDL will lose some base seniority, and in the case of us junior folks, we'll find to like ATL/DTW/MSP for a while.

I chose DL over NWA because of the west coast presence, and I knew I was lucky enough to get a seat in the west coast so early in my career. From one of the CP, displacement is coming in Jan, so if I'm getting bumped from the "cascading" effect, i.e. 7ER->767->737->m90, so be it. I know we're in a very envious position among our peers, and I'm grateful to still have a job at the end of this year.

 

[~~~^~~~]

How big a displacement? details?

 

[General Lee]

How big a displacement? details?

I heard this one will take care of the "extra fat" in the 767 and 76ER categories in ATL. They are very short on MD88 FOs, and this will equal it out. There will also be some entitlements for 777 A and B slots too supposedly.

Bye Bye--General Lee