Some Delta/NWA route swaps......

[jetjockey#1]

Puff,


Actually, I mostly agree with you on this. If you haven't seen anyone call NWA a piece of crap you obviously have never read some of the local press in our hubs in the wintertime.


One of my best friends is our J/S chairman. I haven't heard that from him but I will be asking him about it. If it has happened it is wrong and needs to be dealt with firmly. FWIW, I have jumped on DAL a few times lately and have been treated exceptionally well every time. Thanks.


I gained 2% relative seniority, but in 5 years that is gone and in 10 years I will have lost 8% relative seniority. 8%....That = about 1000 numbers. That was one of the points of FNWA posters here a while back....what seems fair now looks a lot different in the future. DAL pilots will be doing some major sharing of the benefit of NWA attrition, and that's the main reason we FNWAs can't understand why anyone on your side could be unhappy about the SLI. Having said that, I agree with you, it is what it is, and have moved on. I think we are well positioned for all of our futures overall going forward....or at least almost as well as anyone can be in this industry.

Because a lot of us, hundreds if not thousands feel like NWA will take our seats and bases, when they shuffle equipment. Yeah, in ten years it would suck to be a narrow body captain an extra year or two, but you'll still be making 150K+. Right now on the 7ER I can easily break 100K working my tail off during the summer. In narrow body equipment it would probably take me years to break 100k. That's the difference between now and then. I tell you what, NWA pilots stay on NWA A/C and bases, and we do the same, and we will all be a happy family. I know it's not realistic, NWA will bump DAL pilots the first chance you all get. I am not making it up, read the posts, bunch of you guys already asking about the schedules, junior bases, etc.. How many DAL have you heard say, Man I can't wait to fly that 330 out of MSP or DTW, that's right none........

A lot of looking out the window when and if we are forced to mix displaced crews.

 

[clippyrip]

Get over it my man and move on, everyone has a sad story to tell. Some more than others.

 

[FBN0223]

I am not making it up, read the posts, bunch of you guys already asking about the schedules, junior bases, etc..

A lot of looking out the window when and if we are forced to mix displaced crews.

Correct. DTW is NWA's largest base and over 60% of the pilots are commuters. Many are from FL and the south and will bid into ATL as soon as possible. In MSP, we have lots of guys and gals commuting from the west coast who can't hold the A330 in SEA but would be happy driving to work or having a much easier commute to LAX.

My bet: ATL/LAX already senior bases will become even more senior. DTW/MSP will be good for picking up an early career captain's slot on the MD88. Bring a parka.

 

[nwaredtail]

Correct. DTW is NWA's largest base and over 60% of the pilots are commuters. Many are from FL and the south and will bid into ATL as soon as possible. In MSP, we have lots of guys and gals commuting from the west coast who can't hold the A330 in SEA but would be happy driving to work or having a much easier commute to LAX.

My bet: ATL/LAX already senior bases will become even more senior. DTW/MSP will be good for picking up an early career captain's slot on the MD88. Bring a parka.

I agree, every FO I have flown with has said they will bid widebody FO as soon as they can. MSP will still be the same due to the people that still say "it's a great place to live".

 

[licorice]

I agree, every FO I have flown with has said they will bid widebody FO as soon as they can. MSP will still be the same due to the people that still say "it's a great place to live".

If I were a junior NW DC-9 f/o commuting from the southeast/Florida to DTW/MSP/MEM, I wouldn't start ordering the 767ER manuals or looking for commuter pads around Virginia Ave.....quite yet... Two factors will thwart their ambitions (in ATL) First, it will not be lost on the hundreds of relatively senior DL f/os currently on the maddog/737-800 that those positions (75/76/767ER) will start to go more senior, and they will try to position themselves accordingly sometime before SOC. Secondly, as regards the 76ER flying, all indications are that there may be another ER base in the works sometime after SOC....that time would have to come from somewhere, most likely JFK and/or ATL, thus making the ER category in ATL even more senior. In general, there is a perception at DL that the ER widebody (f/o) positions are in jeopardy system-wide because of salivating, ambitious young NW DC-9 f/os....the AE bids on the ER between now and SOC you can bet will become more and more senior.

 

[FBN0223]

If I were a junior NW DC-9 f/o commuting from the southeast/Florida to DTW/MSP/MEM, I wouldn't start ordering the 767ER manuals or looking for commuter pads around Virginia Ave.....quite yet...

Most of the junior NWA DC-9 FOs will probably stay DC-9 FOs for a while. There is, however, a very large contingent of senior NWA B757 FOs who be be very interested in the B767ER and an easier commute.

 

[hockeypilot44]

I see a pattern. Just about every Delta pilot gains percentage increases throughout his/her career while just about every NWA pilot loses seniority percentages throughout his/her career. The list blatantly disregarded our attrition, and the Delta pilots get to benefit at our expense. It was an unfair award. The only consolation prize is maybe some NWA pilots will be able to bid to a better base or equipment very soon.

 

[licorice]

I see a pattern. Just about every Delta pilot gains percentage increases throughout his/her career while just about every NWA pilot loses seniority percentages throughout his/her career. The list blatantly disregarded our attrition, and the Delta pilots get to benefit at our expense. It was an unfair award. The only consolation prize is maybe some NWA pilots will be able to bid to a better base or equipment very soon.

No, hockeypilot, an unfair award would have been 210 Delta pilots in the TOP 1400! (your MEC's version of the top of a "fair" list) Think of that obscene proposal, hockeypilot, and tell me what is fair and what is unfair. Also, a 400 NW staple at the bottom would have been unfair. Many DL pilots on this and other forums admitted the 400 staple was unfair, but never did I ever hear even the faintest of indications on the NW side that 210 DL in the top 1400 might be considered just a tiny bit "excessive". It actually p!sses me off to think that we had to take that POS DOH proposal so seriously for so long during arbitration.....but alas, you had nothing to lose, right? The problem is, you "bought" your MEC's version of "fair", but in reality you "bought" an outside chance at a huge windfall at DL's expense. In the process of so thoroughly convincing yourself that DOH was fair, you unwittingly found yourself in a situation where the idea that a "loss" for your side was IN REALITY, actually considered "fair" by 3 unbiased experts in the field of seniority list mergers. Had your side initially agreed on the inherent fairness of categories/ratios, you might have been able to concentrate more energy to recovering your retirement attrition, and might have achieved a better outcome, but you gambled on winning a huge, decisive victory- - - -and you "lost".

 

[Muskycat]

I see a pattern. Just about every Delta pilot gains percentage increases throughout his/her career while just about every NWA pilot loses seniority percentages throughout his/her career. The list blatantly disregarded our attrition, and the Delta pilots get to benefit at our expense. It was an unfair award. The only consolation prize is maybe some NWA pilots will be able to bid to a better base or equipment very soon.

What about Delta's attrition? It exceeds your attrition by almost 2000 pilots in my career. And far as me gaining anything through your retirements I pretty much shift a few percent over the years. Right now I've lost 1%.
I understand why NWA guys are not happy because the have to share their attrition. But on the other hand, DOH and credit for attrition via arbitration is something that is seldom considered. So my point is that NWA expectations where a wee bit scewed. And for the Delta guys complaining about getting bumped out of their base, well, what where they thinking? New company brings change, both good and bad. Deal with it and move on.
I look forward to working with NWA, now Delta brother and sisters. And I hope we can get back what we had in our 2001 contract and move on.

Cheers and Happy New Year!

 

[licorice]

Most of the junior NWA DC-9 FOs will probably stay DC-9 FOs for a while. There is, however, a very large contingent of senior NWA B757 FOs who be be very interested in the B767ER and an easier commute.

Well, there is an even larger contingent of senior DAL 75/767 domestic F/Os who may be equally interested in the B767ER and it's more commutable trips. That point may be partially moot, however...Did I read somewhere that all FNW 757 pilots will, after only differences training (but not DAL NAV/mountain training) on the 767, be considered as being in the ER category? Thus, they wouldn't need to "bid" for the ER. BTW, I think it is better to keep the 75/76 categories separate. (ER and dom.) The issue of real-world currency (vs. "official" currency) would be paramount, with literally thousands of pilots/trips in a combined category, and over half of them in ATL.....better to keep them separate, IMHO.

 

[jetjockey#1]

I see a pattern. Just about every Delta pilot gains percentage increases throughout his/her career while just about every NWA pilot loses seniority percentages throughout his/her career. The list blatantly disregarded our attrition, and the Delta pilots get to benefit at our expense. It was an unfair award. The only consolation prize is maybe some NWA pilots will be able to bid to a better base or equipment very soon.

Who are you kidding? 70% of DAL pilots lost seniority power, plain and simple. As a 07 new hire, I am holding widebody with 100 hours a month may-oct. I was 187 numbers from holding captain, yes captain. All that is gone, thanks to NWA. Oh wait, maybe not, NWA will stay on their own equipment and bases, and we'll do the same. Yeah right, all you have to do is read a few posts to see NWA pilots asking all kind of questions about our, DAL, equipment and bases. How many DAL pilots have been asking about NWA equipment/bases, none, oh wait, ACL65, that's one

 

[poor2thecore]

Who are you kidding? 70% of DAL pilots lost seniority power, plain and simple. As a 07 new hire, I am holding widebody with 100 hours a month may-oct. I was 187 numbers from holding captain, yes captain. All that is gone, thanks to NWA. Oh wait, maybe not, NWA will stay on their own equipment and bases, and we'll do the same. Yeah right, all you have to do is read a few posts to see NWA pilots asking all kind of questions about our, DAL, equipment and bases. How many DAL pilots have been asking about NWA equipment/bases, none, oh wait, ACL65, that's one

I'm sure there are a number of DAL guys/gals living in MSP, DTW or MEM or said general vicinity (2hr drive) that do not post on these forums that are probably drooling over the fact they might not have to catch a flight to and from work. Instead they'd take the Ford or Chevy down the interstate. I'm sure they'd take the less paying, old school DC-9 and drive to work, vice commuting to a 737-800.

Sure, Delta has better base locations. Although, people do actually live in the greater Detroit area. I was one of them, nice place to raise a family. I'm sure MSP is the same way.

 

[FBN0223]

All that is gone, thanks to NWA. Oh wait, maybe not, NWA will stay on their own equipment and bases, and we'll do the same. Yeah right, all you have to do is read a few posts to see NWA pilots asking all kind of questions about our, DAL, equipment and bases. How many DAL pilots have been asking about NWA equipment/bases, none, oh wait, ACL65, that's one

As the senior NWA guys and gals head south, you could always head north and bag that MD-88 Captain's slot much sooner than you think. Ice fishing just may be your thing. It wasn't for me hence the interest in new possibilities with Delta.

Yeah you probably won't find anyone asking about the NWA bases. It's a well known fact that our bases are cold and dark but their ours, well.... now yours.

 

[captain caveman]

I'm sure there are a number of DAL guys/gals living in MSP, DTW or MEM or said general vicinity (2hr drive) that do not post on these forums that are probably drooling over the fact they might not have to catch a flight to and from work. Instead they'd take the Ford or Chevy down the interstate. I'm sure they'd take the less paying, old school DC-9 and drive to work, vice commuting to a 737-800.

Sure, Delta has better base locations. Although, people do actually live in the greater Detroit area. I was one of them, nice place to raise a family. I'm sure MSP is the same way.

Yep, A little less than 1% of the premerger Delta pilot group.

 

[Fly4hire]

As the senior NWA guys and gals head south, you could always head north and bag that MD-88 Captain's slot much sooner than you think. Ice fishing just may be your thing. It wasn't for me hence the interest in new possibilities with Delta.

Yeah you probably won't find anyone asking about the NWA bases. It's a well known fact that our bases are cold and dark but their ours, well.... now yours.

I concur there will be a lot of opportunities for those of either pre-merger group who want to domicile out of DTW or MSP, especially for those who live there.

I'm sure there will be due consideration given by the mid-90's FNWA hires not to bid what their seniority can hold post SOC so as not to cause any whining by 07' FDAL hires.......:smash:

 

[Fly4hire]

Who are you kidding? 70% of DAL pilots lost seniority power, plain and simple. As a 07 new hire, I am holding widebody with 100 hours a month may-oct. I was 187 numbers from holding captain, yes captain.

Seniority numbers or numbers ahead of you on a preference list? Reserve JFK? Pass unless you already live there......

Please, don't bid the horrible FNWA bases, or the awful 330, 320, or God forbid, the old, cold, moldy DC9. I assure you the $143/hr it pays is not near as green as the same pay in ATL or JFK.

 

[captain caveman]

Please, don't bid the horrible FNWA bases, or the awful 330, 320, or God forbid, the old, cold, moldy DC9. I assure you the $143/hr it pays is not near as green as the same pay in ATL or JFK.

OK, we won't. Do you guys skidoo?

 

[jetjockey#1]

Please, don't bid the horrible FNWA bases, or the awful 330, 320, or God forbid, the old, cold, moldy DC9. I assure you the $143/hr it pays is not near as green as the same pay in ATL or JFK.

Oh don't worry, I won't, or, for that matter, the guys I talk to, and the guys they talk to want nothing from NWA. We just want to keep our A/C and bases. Can you say the same? The fact of the matter is NWA ended up way ahead on this SLI. Let's just hope the largest AEs are before SOC, I know that sucks for you guys, and you will probably try to file a griveance to delay it. After all that, enjoy our equipment and bases, your union did a heck of job for you all, I wish I could say the same thing about my union.

 

[jetjockey#1]

I concur there will be a lot of opportunities for those of either pre-merger group who want to domicile out of DTW or MSP, especially for those who live there.

NWA is not DAL. I am hoping the NWA folks living on base will stay put. As far as DAL pilots taking over your bases, and drooling over jumping on A330, A320, or DC9, don't worry, we won't, well maybe the 20 or 25 guys who enjoy the -30 degrees temperature you all just had..... Can you say the same about NWA pilots? No, you can not. At the first opportunity you all have you'll be displacing a bunch of DAL pilots, and feel really proud for sticking it to DAL

I'm sure there will be due consideration given by the mid-90's FNWA hires not to bid what their seniority can hold post SOC so as not to cause any whining by 07' FDAL hires.......:smash:

Whining 07 RDAL hire who was expecting to upgrade within 2 years, less than 200 numbers from Cpt right now, before they shoved this merger down our throats. The stagnation will be thanks to your pilot group for at least 5 years. 1000 retirements are nothing in a 12000+ pilot group, if I am lucky to keep my job.

I got to go, December 29th ATL at 9:00PM is about 50 degrees and I am having a bbq, you enjoy your ice fishing.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Please, don't bid the horrible FNWA bases, or the awful 330, 320, or God forbid, the old, cold, moldy DC9. I assure you the $143/hr it pays is not near as green as the same pay in ATL or JFK.

Not planning on it unless I get displaced.... nor are the vast majority of DAL pilots.

The fact is that we are going to see alot of NWA pilots bidding to DAL bases ASAP...especially ATL and LAX.