Delta acquisition of NWA almost finalized!

[General Lee]

Fins and Puff Daddy,

Help me understand your and puffys idea of relative seniority. IF those 2007 hires really get onto the 777 or 88A do you really believe that should blend in with 96 or 97 dohs from our side? If that is what dalpas idea of relative seniority is you are suggesting a essentially a staple of the last 1500-2000 nwa pilots with the bulk being hired prior to 2000. I don't believe the arbitration panel would agree either. I understand relative to be relative. 59% today 59% manana. Anything other than that would be a win fall for y'all. If there is a gross disparity of dohs, I predict a very angry unmotivated portion of the seniority list. Not good for any of us, nor the success of the company.

I think there will be some wiggle room with respect to aircraft size and payscale, but mostly will be relative seniority. If you are in the bottom 5% of your company, you will be in the bottom 5% of the merged company. You can say NWA has more senior guys, but they also still have a frozen pension, and a lot more smaller, older planes. NWA hired 160 something guys since recalling the furloughed pilots, and Delta hired almost 600. I just don't think those 760 pilots will be at the bottom exclusively. Also, I know NWA will have a bunch of retirements in the next few years. The DL side will have the same amount about 5 years after that. Both of those will benefit all of us remaining pilots.

The one thing that may throw a lot of this off, though, is payscale. We are all negotiating this with the "old" payscales, and that does not help the NWA side, since a 3rd year pilot at DL is easily on the 767 making $100 an hour, and at NWA that 3rd year guy might be on the minibus, but probably on the DC9, and making a lot less. That will be the wildcard with the arbitrators. We shall see.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Fly4hire]

Fins and Puff Daddy,

Help me understand your and puffys idea of relative seniority. IF those 2007 hires really get onto the 777 or 88A do you really believe that should blend in with 96 or 97 dohs from our side? If that is what dalpas idea of relative seniority is you are suggesting a essentially a staple of the last 1500-2000 nwa pilots with the bulk being hired prior to 2000.

Cobra,

Got to remember Fins is a 06' or 07' hire - course he's hoping for that.

Funny how we use DOH for determining everything within in each seniority list, but suddenly it's meaningless in a merger? If DOH is used at all, most of the post 2001 DAL hires end up at the bottom of the combined list - where they would be in any other situation other than these SLI arbitrations.

Best case might be DOH, with no bump/no flush (I thinks it's already in one of merger side letters), then a ratio'd relative list.

I don't think any one wants to bump anyone on either side, and if all of RA's sunshine predictions for our future hold true shouldn't be an issue.

Assuming SOC is not until late 09' or 10' and DAL's (antiquated) quarterly/semi-annual AE system it'll be the middle of 10' or even 11' before anyone is bidding over someone else - plenty of time to get in the position your seniority/lifestyle can hold.

As always, if you are a bottom feeder on a high paying piece of equipment, you stand a good chance of staying there or being bumped regardless. It always sucks to be junior.

Hopefully with a 3 person panel we will arrive at a balanced solution that will avoid the USAir fallout and be enough motivation to move both groups toward a better negotiated SLI on there own. Sadly my perception based on what I have seen and heard to date, that will only happen if DALPA perceives they are going to get slammed in the arbitration - I get the impession they will be happy to pillage us on SLI if given the opportunity. No one I have spoken to on our MEC feels that way about the DAL group - everyone wants a SLI solution that quickly allows for a harmonious pilot group and avoids the spectre of a USAir scenario.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Look at prior arbitrated mergers. Look at the logic that Arbitrators have used in their rulings. Look at the obligation Arbitrators have to maintain, or improve on, STATUS QUO.

Stack the airline by what each pilot can hold (not actual bid since some pilots bid by QOL) and then apply relative seniority.

I anticipate a range between relative seniority and relative seniority, by equipment. I base these expectations on history (since that's all I've got).

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins and Puff Daddy,

Help me understand .... If that is what dalpas idea of relative seniority is you are suggesting a essentially a staple of the last 1500-2000 nwa pilots with the bulk being hired prior to 2000.

Well, that is the final solution NWA proffered and then withdrew, leading to the deadlock.

It is difficult at the bottom of the list because there is a big difference in the status quo.

How would you adjust for the fact that Delta simply brings more, bigger, equipment to the table? I'm just asking? (Big fences?)

The mood of most people I fly with is that the Delta MEC already took a position that conceded too much to gain NWA's agreement. Most (make that everyone that I've flown with) expect a better outcome in Arbitration than would be reached by consent.

If anyone too upset, they know what they can do. I've already been out on a couple job interviews (wonder if AIG's flight department is still hiring )

 

[Noserider76]

Sadly my perception based on what I have seen and heard to date, that will only happen if DALPA perceives they are going to get slammed in the arbitration - I get the impession they will be happy to pillage us on SLI if given the opportunity. No one I have spoken to on our MEC feels that way about the DAL group - everyone wants a SLI solution that quickly allows for a harmonious pilot group and avoids the spectre of a USAir scenario.

The problem is that everyone's idea of what getting slammed is is different. Under a perfect scenario everyone should at least end up as well off as they are now and no one should expect a windfall that gives them something they had no expectations of prior to the merger. Seems like a very reasonable statement to me but I bet there are many out there who won't even agree with that.

It's my opinion that you can't look back at the result and see only the numbers. You have to look at the total effect on your current career and future expectations based on today's environment.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Just a thought. Since this is an anonymous board unlike the alpa board where we can look at a seniority list to see one's current seniority/doh/posistion, how about we give our posistion and hire date only here. By doing so it will give us some idea where someone is coming from as far as sli, however still keeping anonymity. What say you boys/girls. Fins, acl, fdj2, puffy, occam, nuguy,shwank, etc. I will go first: doh 95, 319/320A.

 

[Fly4hire]

What say you boys/girls. Fins, acl, fdj2, puffy, occam, nuguy,shwank, etc. I will go first: doh 95, 319/320A.

4/98 757B (displaced DC9A)

 

[RedRum]

We are both contract employee groups

You're kidding, right?

Two pilot groups vying for the upper hand in a SLI and you don't think that symantics of "acquisition" vs. "merger" will be brought up?

Go jumpseat on DAL and ask the pilots how they think the SLI should go. I can guarantee that you will hear the words "acquisition" and "bought" used liberally, and the word "merger" will be absent from the conversation.

Frank,

You should know this as you know the process involved with mergers.

No pilot, Delta or Northwest, should feel more entitled than the other when it comes to the "deal." You can call it waht you want (merger or acquisition). This deal was a stock swap with Delta maintaining the name and headquarters.

Currently Delta pilots are under contract to fly for Delta Airlines. This means that you are contract employees that just happen to fly for Delta Airlines Inc through a PWA between ALPA and Delta Airlines. Northwest pilots are under contract to fly for Northwest Airlines Inc through their CBA between ALPA and Northwest Airlines. Do you see where I am going here? It doesn't matter whether you are a Delta pilot or a Northwest pilot. When the DCC occurs, we are all one pilot group who come from different carriers and are now going to be merged in to one. Just because a Delta pilots wants to use the word ACQUISITION doesn't change the fact that they were just contract employees that work for Delta in the first place.

So you can call it what you want. The new Delta is going to be comprised of a larger pilot group working as contract employees for Delta Airlines, Inc. A Delta pilot cannot say they deserve more seniority because they were a contract employee of the new carrier that just so happens to be called Delta.

Northwest could have easily "acquired" Delta and the same would be true for the Northwest pilots. This feeling of entitlement is what got the US Airways boys and girls in trouble. The sooner both groups grasp the fact that career expectations are an old way of thinking and that this is a merger of equals, the sooner we can get the show on the road and move on with things.

You can call it what you want, but an arbitrator is going to look at this as a merger of equals. The arbitrator's charter and goal is to creat a fair and equitable list of pilots to move forward at the new company...not to creat a windfall based on lopsided demands and expectations of one pilot group.

We have already been down this road at Northwest. The Red Book pilots beat down the Republic guys badly with their career expectations. I can only hope that the Delta pilots not try to follow the same path. Honestly I think the arbitrators will be able to see beyond unreasonable expectations and look at our companies as equals.

 

[~~~^~~~]

An arbitrator is going to look at this as a merger of equals. The arbitrator's charter and goal is to creat a fair and equitable list of pilots to move forward at the new company...not to creat a windfall based on lopsided demands and expectations of one pilot group.

We have already been down this road at Northwest. The Red Book pilots beat down the Republic guys badly with their career expectations. I can only hope that the Delta pilots not try to follow the same path. Honestly I think the arbitrators will be able to see beyond unreasonable expectations and look at our companies as equals.

Good post, IMHO.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Cobra and Fly:

Early to mid 2007 hires at Delta are line holders on the 757/767B, 767 ER category and MD88. I don't know if any are lineholders on the 737-NG yet. The 737 pilots tend to stay there, while the 757 and ER category had a growth spurt that sucked some new hires up the list on that aircraft.

No 2007 hire has gotten the 777, or M88A - but they are close. Everything depends on backfill and they are so short on the MD88 that I think they will have to back fill there. The merger might result in these positions going more senior during the next bid.

Of course it would not be my expectation that 2007 hires would be above, or even near, you on the seniority list. Delta has some VERY senior Fist Officers on the 757/767 that aren't going anywhere. The concern many 07 hires have is getting put below the DC9 pilots when the final outsourcing of that airplane happens.

The official word is that the DC9 is going to be around for a while, maybe long enough to make these concerns a non-issue. I hope so. My math indicates that Delta management would be nuts to keep that airplane in service (maybe Occam's right and they will come to us begging for us to work out relief for Compass, I dunno)