Delta acquisition of NWA almost finalized!

[Superpilot92]

That is probably a good rumor. Maybe. I think it will occur before Nov 23rd either way.
Was it Tim you MSP guy or the DTW one?

neither

 

[michael707767]

Should a 14mo DAL widebody FO be senior to an 8 yr NWA narrowbody FO when it comes to backwards movment?

Depends. If the 14 month DL FO has 10% of the list below him, while the 8 yr NWA FO has only 5% of the list below him, then yes. But if the DL FO only has 10% of the list below him while the NWA FO has 25% of the list below him, then no.

I think some of our junior widebody FOs need to understand the difference between the seat the occupy and thier position on the list. A 14 month FO is only sitting in a widebody seat because being junior, especially in NYC, sucks so bad that none of the senior FOs want that seat. That said, if a 14 month FO at Delta is in a widebody, but a 14 month FO at NW is in a narrowbody, the Delta FO should be senior.

IMHO, your DOH doesn't matter, in any merger. Its what you bring to the table, current position, current progression, current furlough protection, current pay rates, etc that matters.

 

[Superpilot92]

Depends. If the 14 month DL FO has 10% of the list below him, while the 8 yr NWA FO has only 5% of the list below him, then yes. But if the DL FO only has 10% of the list below him while the NWA FO has 25% of the list below him, then no.

I think some of our junior widebody FOs need to understand the difference between the seat the occupy and their position on the list. A 14 month FO is only sitting in a widebody seat because being junior, especially in NYC, sucks so bad that none of the senior FOs want that seat. That said, if a 14 month FO at Delta is in a widebody, but a 14 month FO at NW is in a narrowbody, the Delta FO should be senior.

IMHO, your DOH doesn't matter, in any merger. Its what you bring to the table, current position, current progression, current furlough protection, current pay rates, etc that matters.

The problem is that the new DAL guys may be moving up quick right now because of the bailout of the top of the list and that will plateau at some point.. NWA hasnt had our large retirements #'s or bailouts happen yet and because of age 65 that has put a ? for when people will leave in the next 4 years. The AVERAGE age of the NWA seniority list is something like 53 or 54 years old, the numbers are there. Had we stayed NWA i would be at 45% on the list in the next 10-13 years. We have a "crystal ball" that alpa set up that shows our projected career progression. It shows me in the top 2000 for the last 25 years of my career and retiring at number 3. How does that compare to career progression at DAL for a new guy? Just because a DAL guy is in a widebody as an FO now doesnt mean his/her career progression is better than that of a NWA guy. Apples to oranges and many factors contribute to the equation.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

And I am sure that it will be argued that NWA has better progression than DAL. True initially, but the arbitrators will look at total career progression. Over the long term (10-20) years it is moot either way. You first then us second.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Super.
You need to educate yourself on the top 2300 that left. All would have been gone (except maybe 150 or so) by Dec of last year. (Age 65) That itself is a moot point.
Sole reason for us newbies getting the "coveted seats" is two fold. One, no one else way bidding them and two, 700 new pilots equates to 10% of our post bankruptcy list. That's a lot of pilots. These positions were open in AE and senior individuals could have bid them and chose not to. Also there was probably no way that they all would have been bid. So, either way people with under two years at the company would be in these positions either way.
DAL was over 10K pilots pre 9/11. We parked a ton of jets, and the list shrank by 3000 pilots. All of the early retirements are moot by either measure.

 

[Noserider76]

My opinion is that conditions and restrictions wisely used would protect your greater number of near term retirements for current NWA pilots and also protect current DL pilots bases and equipment during the transition. 5 years seems reasonable to me to allow the dust to settle. By the way, quick initial movement at DL is nothing new. I'm a 10 year 76 FO. I left NW as a DC-9 FO, with no end in sight, for DL and was on the 767 at 11 months and have been there since.

 

[Superpilot92]

And I am sure that it will be argued that NWA has better progression than DAL. True initially, but the arbitrators will look at total career progression. Over the long term (10-20) years it is moot either way. You first then us second.

'Us first" means we have better career expectations in the near future. IE overall seniority Get senior quicker, upgrade sooner, career earnings, etc. In a dynamic seniority list scenario I would move up the list quicker, thus increasing all of the above. With the average age of a the NWA list being as old as it is my career expectations were/are really good. NWA is in a neutral zone right now because of the age 60 change thus making it harder to tell who is leaving and when.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Super - ACL - Bill,

Is everyone forgetting that NWA new hires are getting DC9 slots, FE slots and maybe a 319? You can correct me with the exact answer, but last I heard it was running 13 to 18 years for Super to get ACL's seat.

Is everyone forgetting NWA is retiring 47 airplanes in 2008?

Is everyone forgetting Delta canceled hiring concomitant with NWA canceling a displacement?

Is everyone forgetting that Delta just got a LOA to avoid having to further staff up the MD88's?

NWA pilots feel entitled to Delta jobs on equipment they could not hold at NWA for years, plus dynamic seniority to take them higher and then some Delta people get on here and agree. My goodness, I'm thankful that the NWA pilots got their demands to go to arbitration.

I'm sure on these web boards the proverbial gloves will come off after Thursday. Might be time for Fins to go on hiatus and come back for Thanksgiving with a heapin' helping of "I told you so" Turkey.

Yummy! :beer:

 

[Superpilot92]

Super.
You need to educate yourself on the top 2300 that left. All would have been gone (except maybe 150 or so) by Dec of last year. (Age 65) That itself is a moot point.
Sole reason for us newbies getting the "coveted seats" is two fold. One, no one else way bidding them and two, 700 new pilots equates to 10% of our post bankruptcy list. That's a lot of pilots. These positions were open in AE and senior individuals could have bid them and chose not to. Also there was probably no way that they all would have been bid. So, either way people with under two years at the company would be in these positions either way.
DAL was over 10K pilots pre 9/11. We parked a ton of jets, and the list shrank by 3000 pilots. All of the early retirements are moot by either measure.

Regardless, the retirement numbers in fron of you in the next 15 years dont even compare to ours. And for me i care about moving up the list quicker in that period of time than i do post that time frame. I would rather be in the top 50% in the next 15 years than to be in the top 50% in 25 years. Rough numbers, feel free to fill me in on when you are projected to be in the top 50% of the company.

here is mine.

Seniority# --Year

2678 --------2018

631 ---------2028

238 ---------2038

3 -----------2041 (my age 60)

3 -----------2046 (my age 65)

 

[Superpilot92]

Super - in several years "dynamic seniority" could pull you up to the seat ACL currently has as status quo. At NWA, isn't it running 13 to 18 years to get to a widebody (and no, I don't mean the FE seat).

There is a difference.

Reference my above. How do you compare? Also the reason why widebody FO is longer here is because we haven't hired as much as DAL and our 787's are delayed. Had our 787s been hear on time you would be seeing a whole different story here at NWA right now. Again each company has its ups and downs and factors that go into everything. Comparing on the NOW doesnt paint the whole picture.