Delta acquisition of NWA almost finalized!

[Superpilot92]

That is probably a good rumor. Maybe. I think it will occur before Nov 23rd either way.
Was it Tim you MSP guy or the DTW one?

neither

 

[michael707767]

Should a 14mo DAL widebody FO be senior to an 8 yr NWA narrowbody FO when it comes to backwards movment?

Depends. If the 14 month DL FO has 10% of the list below him, while the 8 yr NWA FO has only 5% of the list below him, then yes. But if the DL FO only has 10% of the list below him while the NWA FO has 25% of the list below him, then no.

I think some of our junior widebody FOs need to understand the difference between the seat the occupy and thier position on the list. A 14 month FO is only sitting in a widebody seat because being junior, especially in NYC, sucks so bad that none of the senior FOs want that seat. That said, if a 14 month FO at Delta is in a widebody, but a 14 month FO at NW is in a narrowbody, the Delta FO should be senior.

IMHO, your DOH doesn't matter, in any merger. Its what you bring to the table, current position, current progression, current furlough protection, current pay rates, etc that matters.

 

[Superpilot92]

Depends. If the 14 month DL FO has 10% of the list below him, while the 8 yr NWA FO has only 5% of the list below him, then yes. But if the DL FO only has 10% of the list below him while the NWA FO has 25% of the list below him, then no.

I think some of our junior widebody FOs need to understand the difference between the seat the occupy and their position on the list. A 14 month FO is only sitting in a widebody seat because being junior, especially in NYC, sucks so bad that none of the senior FOs want that seat. That said, if a 14 month FO at Delta is in a widebody, but a 14 month FO at NW is in a narrowbody, the Delta FO should be senior.

IMHO, your DOH doesn't matter, in any merger. Its what you bring to the table, current position, current progression, current furlough protection, current pay rates, etc that matters.

The problem is that the new DAL guys may be moving up quick right now because of the bailout of the top of the list and that will plateau at some point.. NWA hasnt had our large retirements #'s or bailouts happen yet and because of age 65 that has put a ? for when people will leave in the next 4 years. The AVERAGE age of the NWA seniority list is something like 53 or 54 years old, the numbers are there. Had we stayed NWA i would be at 45% on the list in the next 10-13 years. We have a "crystal ball" that alpa set up that shows our projected career progression. It shows me in the top 2000 for the last 25 years of my career and retiring at number 3. How does that compare to career progression at DAL for a new guy? Just because a DAL guy is in a widebody as an FO now doesnt mean his/her career progression is better than that of a NWA guy. Apples to oranges and many factors contribute to the equation.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

And I am sure that it will be argued that NWA has better progression than DAL. True initially, but the arbitrators will look at total career progression. Over the long term (10-20) years it is moot either way. You first then us second.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Super.
You need to educate yourself on the top 2300 that left. All would have been gone (except maybe 150 or so) by Dec of last year. (Age 65) That itself is a moot point.
Sole reason for us newbies getting the "coveted seats" is two fold. One, no one else way bidding them and two, 700 new pilots equates to 10% of our post bankruptcy list. That's a lot of pilots. These positions were open in AE and senior individuals could have bid them and chose not to. Also there was probably no way that they all would have been bid. So, either way people with under two years at the company would be in these positions either way.
DAL was over 10K pilots pre 9/11. We parked a ton of jets, and the list shrank by 3000 pilots. All of the early retirements are moot by either measure.

 

[Noserider76]

My opinion is that conditions and restrictions wisely used would protect your greater number of near term retirements for current NWA pilots and also protect current DL pilots bases and equipment during the transition. 5 years seems reasonable to me to allow the dust to settle. By the way, quick initial movement at DL is nothing new. I'm a 10 year 76 FO. I left NW as a DC-9 FO, with no end in sight, for DL and was on the 767 at 11 months and have been there since.

 

[Superpilot92]

And I am sure that it will be argued that NWA has better progression than DAL. True initially, but the arbitrators will look at total career progression. Over the long term (10-20) years it is moot either way. You first then us second.

'Us first" means we have better career expectations in the near future. IE overall seniority Get senior quicker, upgrade sooner, career earnings, etc. In a dynamic seniority list scenario I would move up the list quicker, thus increasing all of the above. With the average age of a the NWA list being as old as it is my career expectations were/are really good. NWA is in a neutral zone right now because of the age 60 change thus making it harder to tell who is leaving and when.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Super - ACL - Bill,

Is everyone forgetting that NWA new hires are getting DC9 slots, FE slots and maybe a 319? You can correct me with the exact answer, but last I heard it was running 13 to 18 years for Super to get ACL's seat.

Is everyone forgetting NWA is retiring 47 airplanes in 2008?

Is everyone forgetting Delta canceled hiring concomitant with NWA canceling a displacement?

Is everyone forgetting that Delta just got a LOA to avoid having to further staff up the MD88's?

NWA pilots feel entitled to Delta jobs on equipment they could not hold at NWA for years, plus dynamic seniority to take them higher and then some Delta people get on here and agree. My goodness, I'm thankful that the NWA pilots got their demands to go to arbitration.

I'm sure on these web boards the proverbial gloves will come off after Thursday. Might be time for Fins to go on hiatus and come back for Thanksgiving with a heapin' helping of "I told you so" Turkey.

Yummy! :beer:

 

[Superpilot92]

Super.
You need to educate yourself on the top 2300 that left. All would have been gone (except maybe 150 or so) by Dec of last year. (Age 65) That itself is a moot point.
Sole reason for us newbies getting the "coveted seats" is two fold. One, no one else way bidding them and two, 700 new pilots equates to 10% of our post bankruptcy list. That's a lot of pilots. These positions were open in AE and senior individuals could have bid them and chose not to. Also there was probably no way that they all would have been bid. So, either way people with under two years at the company would be in these positions either way.
DAL was over 10K pilots pre 9/11. We parked a ton of jets, and the list shrank by 3000 pilots. All of the early retirements are moot by either measure.

Regardless, the retirement numbers in fron of you in the next 15 years dont even compare to ours. And for me i care about moving up the list quicker in that period of time than i do post that time frame. I would rather be in the top 50% in the next 15 years than to be in the top 50% in 25 years. Rough numbers, feel free to fill me in on when you are projected to be in the top 50% of the company.

here is mine.

Seniority# --Year

2678 --------2018

631 ---------2028

238 ---------2038

3 -----------2041 (my age 60)

3 -----------2046 (my age 65)

 

[Superpilot92]

Super - in several years "dynamic seniority" could pull you up to the seat ACL currently has as status quo. At NWA, isn't it running 13 to 18 years to get to a widebody (and no, I don't mean the FE seat).

There is a difference.

Reference my above. How do you compare? Also the reason why widebody FO is longer here is because we haven't hired as much as DAL and our 787's are delayed. Had our 787s been hear on time you would be seeing a whole different story here at NWA right now. Again each company has its ups and downs and factors that go into everything. Comparing on the NOW doesnt paint the whole picture.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I can tell you that I did the math of NWA and DAL before coming here. I was still better off at DAL (total package) than I was a NWA. That was with all of the retirements.
I will retire in the top 20 here or there. Still be be in the top 30 no matter how the SLI goes. Ultimate career expectations for the bottom dwellers will be the same either way.
What your argument is, is that you would have gotten your fourth strip before me. I doubt that. Yes, 52% of your list retires in the next ten years. Ours takes three to four years longer. So what you are now back on is Dynamic Seniority.
I can tell you this, if you go with what you propose, you will move 50% in ten years, and then 45% in the next 7. Giving you 20+ in the top 5%. No one not even the arbitrators would go for that. It is quite a bump. In the near term and the long term. You win and everyone else would suffer for it.

I am not in to getting in to petty matches. We all voted for or against the process that is about to start on Thursday. We will all live and die by it. Arguments will be made, for and against each of us. What I propose is let the elected officials with whom we have granted "trust" sling the mud. I much prefer to deal with the cards once we show our hands, and move on. Pi$$ing about this now and in the future will just make this job more of a pain. I tust that one way or another I will be sharing a cockpit with many of you in the ensuing years. I would pefer to not deal with this. Sports, women, boats, and property acquisitions are much more fun to talk about, then how we all got screwed.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I compared that it will take me four and a half years to longer, but then I move up quicker than you do from 2022-2035. I stay in the top 100 or so until my last five years, then it is top 25.
Also remember that I am almost a decade older than you. They individuals that are 25-28 that are senior to me fare even better than I do. Actually better than you do. (Yes, I have run their numbers)

 

[ACL65PILOT]

One of your former co-workers is here, so I can make an exact comparison, to you Super. It is not a guesstimate.

 

[MCDU]

These threads are sounding a lot like USAIR and AWA.
Can not wait til the list comes out and a 1998 hire finds himself junior to a 2007 hire. Guess who will be furloughed first?
DOH with fences and protections for your bases and equipment is the only fair way. That way someone that was hired many years after you can not go and steal someone elses job in their original base.
Look at how AMR and UAL look now and how dynamic a seniority list can be. Senior one day, junior the next and maybe suddenly senior again based on economics, luck or management desicions . Taking a snapshot of an SNL is wrong and does not take into account how this industry always changes and how SNL's can change in just a few years. Just look at how UAL and AMR lists look compared to a few years ago.

M

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fact is that at my retirement date I am over 220 number senior to where you would be on the same date.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Now I just put a ratio based on most senior equipment bid in to my excel program and the fact is that you end up more senior (less numbers between us) than you do on DOH by a long shot. (About 400 numbers less in the combined company)
Save your breath I do not need the dynamic seniority deal.

 

[MCDU]

Man, we got some pretty young pilots here. Anybody over 40?

M

 

[ACL65PILOT]

DOH affects the Dead zone of our list. Ala flush, so it is a non starter. I can see that at the bottom but not anywhere above the 75th%.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fin you there? I think you are over 40.
I am in my mid 30's.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Thanks for outing me for the "old fart" I am. Thanks to all the Red wine & running, the Doc says I should hold up like Heffner.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Awesome. I guess that stuff is good for an old fart's heart.

 

[Superpilot92]

One of your former co-workers is here, so I can make an exact comparison, to you Super. It is not a guesstimate.

Some of your former co-workers are here and can make the same comparisons. Like is said both sides have their +'s and -'s. I agree with you that we all have way to much time left with this company to get worked up about all of this. My point is only that those at DAL that are trying to argue that junior DAL pilots have better career expectations than those at NWA because they are on widebodies NOW need to not only be looking at NOW. Apples to oranges.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I can tell you that I did the math of NWA and DAL before coming here.

You serious?

Fin Fans: Like the boy in orthopaedic shoes, I stand corrected. I wrote that "no one I know considered NWA" and apparently that statement is incorrect. Crap, that's the second time this year that I've been wrong ....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Some of your former co-workers are here and can make the same comparisons.

How did that happen, they get fired?

 

[michael707767]

The problem is that the new DAL guys may be moving up quick right now because of the bailout of the top of the list and that will plateau at some point.. NWA hasnt had our large retirements #'s or bailouts happen yet and because of age 65 that has put a ? for when people will leave in the next 4 years. The AVERAGE age of the NWA seniority list is something like 53 or 54 years old, the numbers are there. Had we stayed NWA i would be at 45% on the list in the next 10-13 years. We have a "crystal ball" that alpa set up that shows our projected career progression. It shows me in the top 2000 for the last 25 years of my career and retiring at number 3. How does that compare to career progression at DAL for a new guy? Just because a DAL guy is in a widebody as an FO now doesnt mean his/her career progression is better than that of a NWA guy. Apples to oranges and many factors contribute to the equation.

The NWA pilots need to get over the early outs. The vast majority of them would have retired at age 60, before the rule change, anyway. And as far as retirements going forward, yes NWA has more short term, but Delta has more long term.

No, just because a DL pilot is in a widebody now doesn't mean their future progression is better. Re-read what I said. Current seat, current progression. That includes the retirements you expect, as well as new aircraft, aircraft going away, etc.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Agree with that statement for the most part. There are some issues with it. I am sure that all sides will be disceted for all of to see in the coming weeks.
As stated, this is out of the rank-and-file pilot's hands. We had our vote. You can talk your LEC reps ears off, but both sides know what is at stake and are going to fight vehemently for the best out come for their member's. No one should take it personally. It may get ugly, but when it is over it is over. We need to on some level have the ability to move on.
On a side note, you will be a CA on something by the time your are 33 if you want it. Personally, I am all about quality v/s quantity. Give me an ER, or wide body FO line and I will probably stay there for many many years. My wife may have different ideas, but that is my goal.

 

[~~~^~~~]

and our 787's are delayed.

Who's 787's?

I had to correct the lady on the Boeing tour too. That red tail throws a lot of folks off. Fortunately in the building next door they have three 777's on the line for Delta, so they can see how the paint is supposed to look.

Hope you know I'm just yanking your chain.

See you for Thanksgiving. Hopefully we will both be thankful for something.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

You serious?

Fin Fans: Like the boy in orthopedic shoes, I stand corrected. I wrote that "no one I know considered NWA" and apparently that statement is incorrect. Crap, that's the second time this year that I've been wrong ....

FIN, I did a comparative analysis of everywhere. It is what I do. You do the same thing. Not that it was an option. As stated, quality over quantity. I am from the Midwest and NWA was no where near one of my top choices. It was a backup. Cripes I even turned SWA down for DAL. We will see how that decision plays out in the ensuing years.

 

[michael707767]

My point is only that those at DAL that are trying to argue that junior DAL pilots have better career expectations than those at NWA because they are on widebodies NOW need to not only be looking at NOW. Apples to oranges.

I actually agree with your point. However, that a DAL junior pilot is on a widebody is still a factor in the SLI, and I still think the longterm prospects of a Delta new hire are better.

 

[Superpilot92]

Fact is that at my retirement date I am over 220 number senior to where you would be on the same date.

You were hired at DAL before me and are older than me. What are you using as your placement and mine on a list? Also 220 numbers isnt alot, especially considering i have 10 more years post ACL65Pilot

I appreciate the good a discussion. In all seriousness I look forward to how this pans out because either way i think we are sitting in good positions. Ultimately we got in at the front end of what will eventually be a big wave.

(ps, i just ordered my nifty DAL name tag, does that get me up the totem pole any? )