National seniority list.

[B190Captain]

That's the point that I would support. It's also the most arbitrary. (Mine's August 1993)

Other things could be worked out like a national longevity list as opposed to a seniority list. This would entail keeping your longevity, but losing your seniority when you change jobs. Another requirement: first furloughed, first hired. When there are furloughes out there, they get first shot at jobs they apply.

I believe that would be the most fair way to determine where your number and pay will fall and based on equipment of course. Granted, not everyone has an ATP (career FO's) so I guess once you are qualified to fly for hire in a ME AC then the COM ticket would be a better way.

No matter what airline you work for you would get longevity pay per ac type. Once you get the certificate you are part of the Union or guild and if you are working with a non-union carrier you would be inactive unless you gain employment in a unionized carrier. The work rules remain the same for everyone (union or non union) so if someone starts an airline without a union and flies 737's to get pilots to fill those seats they would have to pay the universal rate. TO UNITE/NATIONALIZE THE PROFESSION IS THE GOAL NOT JUST THE UNIONIZED CARRIERS. THIS WOULD BRING US ALL TOGETHER.That would gain the most unity and one voice and eliminate pilot groups battling each other.

 

[Raskal]

That's the point that I would support. It's also the most arbitrary. (Mine's August 1993)

Other things could be worked out like a national longevity list as opposed to a seniority list. This would entail keeping your longevity, but losing your seniority when you change jobs. Another requirement: first furloughed, first hired. When there are furloughes out there, they get first shot at jobs they apply.

Good points, but not sure about the ATP date. In the other outside industry examples I can think of the date (longevity or seniority) is based upon union membership. I like the longevity idea though.

 

[B190Captain]

Good points, but not sure about the ATP date. In the other outside industry examples I can think of the date (longevity or seniority) is based upon union membership. I like the longevity idea though.

I don't agree union membership is the way to go. There are many pilots that do not have membership because they work for non union carriers. The most fair way is issuance of your COMM ME ticket. The database is in place (FAA) with all names and dates.

 

[StopNTSing]

Biggest flaw I see is what incentive would mgmt have to hire a guy with more longevity than a more junior (i.e. cheaper) pilot?

 

[B190Captain]

Biggest flaw I see is what incentive would mgmt have to hire a guy with more longevity than a more junior (i.e. cheaper) pilot?

Unfortunately I have to agree with that statement. Maybe there could be a clause to prevent that stating as long as more experienced or earlier dates of issuance are available for hire then those pilots would be considered first. (Just a thought) MAYBE IT COULD BE comm SE OR ME. This would even protect the SE pilots flying for hire in a Pilatus for example. It would apply for Part 135/121 and freight dawgs!

If a company or companies take advantage then it would be documented and a pattern will become apparent.

 

[HalinTexas]

There would be no incentive, unless that more experienced pilot is furloughed from another carrier.

 

[TWA]

What happens to FO Johnny at airline XYZ when airline ABC goes Tango Uniform? Does he get furloughed so the more senior pilots at airline ABC can hold onto a job? When an airline furloughs, do the guys at the bottom of the national list end up getting the shaft, regardless of how good or bad their carrier is doing?

Also, when an airline is hiring, must they always take the most senior person who applied? What if the person at the top of the list is borderline incompetent and the hiring board decides they really don't want him? What happens then?

Too many unknowns.

 

[lookin4better]

The last part of your statement is one reason companies will not sign off on this-----being forced to 'hire' someone they dont want.

The idea is great, one list, one union for one profession.....of course this summation is very general and there are so many moving pieces it may be impossible.

 

[noperf]

A national seniority list would be the death knell of ALPA. No pilot group at a financially stable and viable airline would elect to remain ALPA. Management would love it. This is just more divide and conquer fodder for management.

 

[JoeMerchant]

A national seniority list would be the death knell of ALPA. No pilot group at a financially stable and viable airline would elect to remain ALPA. Management would love it. This is just more divide and conquer fodder for management.

How many "financially stable and viable airlines" do we have in ALPA?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Biggest flaw I see is what incentive would mgmt have to hire a guy with more longevity than a more junior (i.e. cheaper) pilot?

Exactly. This would ensure more senior pilots would not get hired. Flow through schemes would be even more attractive to employers to plug up the pipeline.

What bugs me most of all, is that there are still no bridges being built to carriers like SkyWest who will perform most of the outsourced 737 flying. Through mismanagement of scope, ALPA has done more than anyone to destroy longevity and seniority by creating artificial barriers to pilots engaged in any major airline's flying.

This move is like wanting to get off the Titanic, but refusing to board one of those rickety wooden life boats. Instead they demand first class tickets on the Royal Caribbean Genesis.

One list within the brand is the correct first step in this direction.

This has less chance of passing than age 65... nevermind. But, this will further divide ALPA. UAL did not want this until is benefitted them. I can't see the political alignment for this and the resulting disappointment will harm UAL morale and ultimately harm ALPA's support base.

 

[noperf]

Joe,

You're question is a red herring. The definition of viable, etc. is dependent on the beholder. Most, maybe all, of the debt holders of NWA, DAL, UAL, and US Airways consider them to be viable in one manner or another. Like I said- a national seniority list will be the tolling of the bell for ALPA national.

 

[waveflyer]

Before an NSL- how about we flatten out wages and get rid of this tradition of '1st' year pay. Even out the wages between FO and CA- (make the difference 15-20% instead of the 40-70% or more that it is now) Go to one-rate no matter what you fly. A bigger revenue producer joins the fleet- all pilots see the pay increase.
It's not about ego- it's about leverage and the fact that a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. In the airline world- it's a whole lot more valuable.
Stop chasing the carrot.
If this happens- you'll have good jobs in year 1- and that alleviates most of the concerns in this career while keeping capitalism fully intact.

There would need to be cooperation among unions and MEC's on this. Their does need to be a national plan- and leaders who will get everyone on board.

 

[FR8mastr]

I have read some fine examples of why ALPA has been such a success as of late on this thread. "I got mine so screw you"
Don't worry General I'm sure if something like this ever saw the light of day, there would be no sidestepping to another carrier just because they are more senior. It would surly be vacancy driven, and only if the pilot wishing to move was unemployed. I am also sure there would be protections for pilots working now prior to the implementation date of the new rules. (as there should be).
All that leaves is the "I'm superior because my airline is bigger, or better, than yours" attitude. We all know there is, and was, a tremendous amount of luck associated with getting hired wherever you are.

 

[Dan Roman]

A national seniority list would be the death knell of ALPA. No pilot group at a financially stable and viable airline would elect to remain ALPA. Management would love it. This is just more divide and conquer fodder for management.

True. I said elsewere that airlines like Alaska and Hawaiian would probably get out of ALPA. Otherwise, with domicles like SEA and HNL, they would just be taken over by senior out of work UAL pilots at the expense of the current pilots.