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National seniority list.

JoeMerchant

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[FONT=&quot]AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]102ND REGULAR EXECUTIVE BOARD MEETING[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]September 9-10, 2008[/FONT]​


[FONT=&quot]SUBJECT[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]National Seniority Protocol[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]SOURCE[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]UAL MEC[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BACKGROUND INFORMATION[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]See proposed resolution.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]PROPOSED RESOLUTION[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the Air Line Pilots Association has been at the forefront of pilot labor representation in the airline industry since 1931, and has consistently been the champion of safety protocols that assure our passengers have the safest transportation system possible, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the 77 year history of ALPA is replete with examples of bold decisions made by ALPA leaders in order to assure that measures, necessary to protect the economic bargaining rights and professional interests of its members, have been instituted and that the best interests of the profession have been secured, and, [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS opportunities to make significant and enduring policy changes that enhance the professional opportunities of every ALPA member come along rarely and are often precipitated by industry destabilizing events like those brought to bear on ALPA members with The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, the September 11th acts of war, the bankruptcy era, and the current manipulated inflation of the price of petroleum, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the most unfulfilled professional benefit, recognized by all airline pilots and by ALPA members specifically, is the lack of a policy, derived from fundamental union principals, that enables and enforces the individual members’ ability to transfer their seniority, longevity, and operational experience as professionals from one airline employer to another, thereby allowing a manipulation of their entire career path by the actions of the very same capitalist cabal whose fundamental goal is to limit, degrade and minimize the essential role of pilots to the airline industry, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS parochial company loyalty, historically embraced by ALPA pioneers of previous eras, has been perverted and used against ALPA members as a capitalist leveraging tool that stifles the inherent right of professional pilots to collectively negotiate an economically sound and stable ratio of pay and work rules for identical job responsibilities using the continual underlying threat of losing the earned seniority benefits derived from their professional longevity at a particular airline while being compared to the economics of another airline (whipsawing), and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the fundamental principal of national seniority does not conflict with the current or future job prospects of pilots but instead extends a common system of advancement to be used at every ALPA carrier and bonds all ALPA pilots to the profession instead of to an individual airline; a national seniority list would assure a logical and rational adherence to a measurable, protected status of those pilots from a commonly defined starting point in their professional careers regardless of how many airlines may exist, regardless of the skill and economic acumen of the managements that run them, and regardless of the transient political influence of the day, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the career security of any pilot who was able to transfer his seniority to another air carrier would liberate ALPA pilots and forever eliminate the ability of management to whipsaw or erode ALPA unity based on loss of job threats, economic fear or arbitrary merger awards, based on a perceived surviving carrier analogy, thus enabling ALPA to negotiate wages and work rules at all airlines based on the pilots’ collective evaluation of their true contribution and economic value to an air carrier,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Executive Board acknowledges this historic and momentous opportunity in time when several key air carrier contract amendable dates are so closely aligned, and which could be coordinated as part of this undertaking, that will launch a historic, new career security protocol for all ALPA pilots and by design, realign the true interests and career expectations of every pilot represented by ALPA both now and in the future, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the development of a national seniority protocol be assigned to a select National Seniority Committee (NSC) consisting of the President of ALPA; one pilot from each represented pilot group within group A, to be appointed by the Master Chairman of each MEC of the group; and one pilot representing each group designation: B1, B2, B3, B4 and C, each of whom shall be appointed by a consensus of the MEC Master Chairmen from each of the pilot groups represented within a classification; for a total of 11 members, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the National Seniority Committee will establish a single national seniority protocol that will be used to establish two separate lists reflecting the Canadian ALPA pilots and the United States ALPA pilots, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the protocol for an ALPA national seniority list will be developed by the NSC under a rigid timeline with a specific date for completion in 2009, and using a simple and transparent methodology that defines a starting point common to all professional air line pilots from which all seniority benefits and longevity will derive, and,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that without discrimination to any pilot, the NSC will set and fix a methodology recognizing “benchmarks of career achievement” with associated “exercise rights” in order to minimize unrealistic windfalls/detriments to any pilot unless and until those common benchmarks have been met, regardless of whether the benchmarks have been achieved at an ALPA carrier or not, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that upon completion of the protocol, the NSC will present a single, unified explanation of the developed protocol to all ALPA members, and all other represented professional pilot groups, using all available communication tools before preferably submitting the NSC proposal for ALPA-wide membership ratification, Roll Call by the governing body, or the applicable rules as stipulated in the ALPA Constitution and By Laws, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that upon adoption as ALPA policy by the proper authorizing internal ALPA mechanisms, the national seniority protocol will be enforced as of that date and no ALPA Collective Bargaining Agreement will be signed by the President of the Association without full inclusion of this policy as a part thereof.[/FONT]
 

Fubijaakr

Seniority is Forever
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Enough
Its about darn time!
 

JoeMerchant

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Sounds like the UAL MEC is trying to take care of their pilots should they go belly up. Nothing wrong with that.

Your right.....The UAL pilot group wouldn't be doing this if they were still on top.....Even a broken clock is right twice a day...........They are doing it for their own benefit....We all need to support it however......
 

FR8mastr

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Good for UAL, good for the profession, lets all hope they can get it done. This could bring ALPA full circle, back to the founding ideals of the organization. That would be a great thing!
 
Last edited:

Widow's Son

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Okay FO's. With a national seniority list your choice will be to work for a weakass carrier or stay in the right seat for life.

Very few FO's will ever upgrade at the premium carrier(s).

A national seniority list is the dumbest idea ever conceived by aviators.

A national seniority list failed miserably the only time it was implemented which was the Aeroflot conglomerate of the old Soviet Union.

One single national seniority list will only work with one single national airline.
 
Last edited:

JoeMerchant

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Okay FO's. With a national seniority list your choice will be work for a weakass carrier or stay in the right seat for life.

Very few FO's will ever upgrade at the premium carrier(s).

How many FO's will upgrade at UAL, AA, USAir, and DAL currently?....Time to allow lateral moves.....That will help everyone.....

Maybe we should build a system that doesn't rely on "upgrading at a premium carrier".....
 

General Lee

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Your right.....The UAL pilot group wouldn't be doing this if they were still on top.....Even a broken clock is right twice a day...........They are doing it for their own benefit....We all need to support it however......

Nah, I think we should NOT support it. Too bad if you decided to go somewhere else and that airline ends up in the toilet. Same goes when you decide to buy a house, or go to a certain college. If things go wrong, then it is too bad. Big NO vote here.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

General Lee

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How many FO's will upgrade at UAL, AA, USAir, and DAL currently?....Time to allow lateral moves.....That will help everyone.....

Maybe we should build a system that doesn't rely on "upgrading at a premium carrier".....

Yeah Joe, and your 15 years in the ATR-72 qualify you to move right into a Delta MD88 left seat. Nah, you are way too transparent. And maybe we could all hope for AGE 70 retirement too----yeah, and those UAL and USAir Easties would LOVE it, and take the left seat of every widebody out there. Sure Joe, that's the ticket! You are watching your own airline shrink (bye ATRs), and when that happens to anyone they start to think of "how they can stay in the game, and NOT START OVER like everyone else." This is desperation on the part of UAL pilots and pilots LIKE YOU JOE. Delta may be hiring soon, thrown in an app.

Were any of these pilots FORCED TO GO TO UNITED? Were they assigned to go to United? Were you assigned to go to ASA Joe? It was a choice. No other way to describe it. It may have been a BAD CHOICE. Too bad. You gotta roll the dice sometimes and make decisions. Be a big boy and live with it.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Last edited:

Dan Roman

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Yeah Joe, and your 15 years in the ATR-72 qualify you to move right into a Delta MD88 left seat. Nah, you are way too transparent. And maybe we could all hope for AGE 70 retirement too----yeah, and those UAL and USAir Easties would LOVE it, and take the left seat of every widebody out there. Sure Joe, that's the ticket! You are watching your own airline shrink (bye ATRs), and when that happens to anyone they start to think of "how they can stay in the game, and NOT START OVER like everyone else." This is desperation on the part of UAL pilots and pilots LIKE YOU JOE. Delta may be hiring soon, thrown in an app.

Were any of these pilots FORCED TO GO TO UNITED? Were they assigned to go to United? Were you assigned to go to ASA Joe? It was a choice. No other way to describe it. It may have been a BAD CHOICE. Too bad. You gotta roll the dice sometimes and make decisions. Be a big boy and live with it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

That's essentialy it. A regional guy may see this as an opportunity to move up, but this looks like a pretty transparent attempt to take someone elses job if UAL craters.
 

General Lee

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That's essentialy it. A regional guy may see this as an opportunity to move up, but this looks like a pretty transparent attempt to take someone elses job if UAL craters.

It's kinda pathetic really. Joe Merchant was also an RJDC member, which means he was lazy and never wanted to "start over" the same way thousands of pilots ahead and behind him did----by APPLYING to another airline. Some people just feel entitled, or know they couldn't pass an interview.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

waveflyer

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So general-
Mgmt everywhere- including delta- is using our socialist seniority system against us (b/c they know we'll do ANYTHING to avoid starting completely over at the bottom at poverty wages)
And you think we should just keep doing what we are doing?
Normally i'd agree w/ your "too bad" logic. But our own seniority system undermines the free hand of competition- and certainly doesn't reward the most capable and qualified. It rewards the lucky.
A NSL will have issues-= but until we can move from company to company w/o such an insane hit to our life, we will see wages slide.
Good job UAL
(from a non-UAL pilot)
 

ACL65PILOT

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Fact is that this is really the way that it needs to go. Yeah, lots of us will get screwed, but once again you need to think long term.
 

TWA Dude

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Don't anybody worry. Management will never go for it. I mean, really, every single union carrier would have to go for it for it to work. What's their incentive?

Regardless, there's only one way a NSL could even possibly work and that's to start it with the first pilot hired after a certain starting date. No way it can be retroactively imposed. Too many richards would get stepped on.
 

BobbyBiplane

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So ALPA is finally back to where it was in 1985 when Erol Johnstadt (PAA) proposed a national seniority list. Now we will see whether the membership has come far enough along to understand its benefits.

Bob
 

Mamma

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What's stopping an airline from undercutting this seniority list? Hire from overseas, hire direct from college...not to mention their are a zillion pilots ready to stab the rest in the back if it benefits them. Why would XYZ airline hire a 10 year FO that expects 10 year wages? How would a furlough be managed? Would pilots at an airline properly run suffer when a more senior mismanaged airline goes under? Lot of questions to be asked here but if you come right down to it, it seems the case of the more senior pilots sticking it to the junior guys again.
 

Raskal

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*sigh*
Wow, despite this being flightinfo I can't believe the number of negative posts. Regardless of motivation, this is exactly what has been needed for decades-I only hope those who are opposed will see the absolute necessity of a national list.

Someone wrote that management would never go for it-well no kidding! This would enable all of us to have better job/income security than ever AND at a time when we need it the most, and will completely eliminate the main motivation for alter-ego creations and the like. No longer will a new airline be cheaper to run because of first-year pay scales. This could go a long way toward killing the whipsaw tactics once and for all.

Whether this be selfishly motivated on UAL's part or not, think about it. Does a 10,000 hr capt coming off a career at a failed carrier and starting in the right seat junior to a guy with a quarter of his experience make any sense at all? No-it's insane.
 

ImbracableCrunk

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That "You made your choice, not deal with it" mentality would make more sense to me if the pilots actually had a say in how things are run.

Let's say I went to ABC Air because they looked good, but it turns out that there's a management change that's bad for whatever reason. I take my services elsewhere.

But what if airline XYZ looks good to all pilots, and everyone comes over? Now FOs are either forced to go somewhere else to upgrade or stay FO for a long time.

Would this mean a national payscale? "Hey ATA, these are the rates for the 737 for 2009."

Interesting.
 

Raskal

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*sigh*
That "You made your choice, not deal with it" mentality would make more sense to me if the pilots actually had a say in how things are run.

Let's say I went to ABC Air because they looked good, but it turns out that there's a management change that's bad for whatever reason. I take my services elsewhere.

But what if airline XYZ looks good to all pilots, and everyone comes over? Now FOs are either forced to go somewhere else to upgrade or stay FO for a long time.

Would this mean a national payscale? "Hey ATA, these are the rates for the 737 for 2009."

Interesting.

I think that might be oversimplifying a bit. No, I don't think there would be a national scale-some companies pay more than others, just like everywhere else in business.

The other point about 'what if everyone decides to go to xyz airline and displace everyone...', just because you hold a number doesn't entitle anyone to a job, it just dictates the level at which they're hired in at. Tons of folks want in at NJA-they hire what they need.

Not to mention, I would assume that protections would be standard as to displacement and hiring would be based on vacancy openings.

Real possibilities here.
 

Mamma

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That "You made your choice, not deal with it" mentality would make more sense to me if the pilots actually had a say in how things are run.

Let's say I went to ABC Air because they looked good, but it turns out that there's a management change that's bad for whatever reason. I take my services elsewhere.

But what if airline XYZ looks good to all pilots, and everyone comes over? Now FOs are either forced to go somewhere else to upgrade or stay FO for a long time.

Would this mean a national payscale? "Hey ATA, these are the rates for the 737 for 2009."

Interesting.

Hard to say if management would like this or a national pay scale. Some would in that it would put everyone on a level playing field in regards to labor. Others would not...those who want to subsidize cheap tickets with low cost labor. I like the idea in general but I just don't think it would work. Many airlines would find a way around it and pilots would stab each other in the back.
 
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