National seniority list.

[Mamma]

What's stopping an airline from undercutting this seniority list? Hire from overseas, hire direct from college...not to mention their are a zillion pilots ready to stab the rest in the back if it benefits them. Why would XYZ airline hire a 10 year FO that expects 10 year wages? How would a furlough be managed? Would pilots at an airline properly run suffer when a more senior mismanaged airline goes under? Lot of questions to be asked here but if you come right down to it, it seems the case of the more senior pilots sticking it to the junior guys again.

 

[Raskal]

Wow, despite this being flightinfo I can't believe the number of negative posts. Regardless of motivation, this is exactly what has been needed for decades-I only hope those who are opposed will see the absolute necessity of a national list.

Someone wrote that management would never go for it-well no kidding! This would enable all of us to have better job/income security than ever AND at a time when we need it the most, and will completely eliminate the main motivation for alter-ego creations and the like. No longer will a new airline be cheaper to run because of first-year pay scales. This could go a long way toward killing the whipsaw tactics once and for all.

Whether this be selfishly motivated on UAL's part or not, think about it. Does a 10,000 hr capt coming off a career at a failed carrier and starting in the right seat junior to a guy with a quarter of his experience make any sense at all? No-it's insane.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

That "You made your choice, not deal with it" mentality would make more sense to me if the pilots actually had a say in how things are run.

Let's say I went to ABC Air because they looked good, but it turns out that there's a management change that's bad for whatever reason. I take my services elsewhere.

But what if airline XYZ looks good to all pilots, and everyone comes over? Now FOs are either forced to go somewhere else to upgrade or stay FO for a long time.

Would this mean a national payscale? "Hey ATA, these are the rates for the 737 for 2009."

Interesting.

 

[Raskal]

That "You made your choice, not deal with it" mentality would make more sense to me if the pilots actually had a say in how things are run.

Let's say I went to ABC Air because they looked good, but it turns out that there's a management change that's bad for whatever reason. I take my services elsewhere.

But what if airline XYZ looks good to all pilots, and everyone comes over? Now FOs are either forced to go somewhere else to upgrade or stay FO for a long time.

Would this mean a national payscale? "Hey ATA, these are the rates for the 737 for 2009."

Interesting.

I think that might be oversimplifying a bit. No, I don't think there would be a national scale-some companies pay more than others, just like everywhere else in business.

The other point about 'what if everyone decides to go to xyz airline and displace everyone...', just because you hold a number doesn't entitle anyone to a job, it just dictates the level at which they're hired in at. Tons of folks want in at NJA-they hire what they need.

Not to mention, I would assume that protections would be standard as to displacement and hiring would be based on vacancy openings.

Real possibilities here.

 

[Mamma]

That "You made your choice, not deal with it" mentality would make more sense to me if the pilots actually had a say in how things are run.

Let's say I went to ABC Air because they looked good, but it turns out that there's a management change that's bad for whatever reason. I take my services elsewhere.

But what if airline XYZ looks good to all pilots, and everyone comes over? Now FOs are either forced to go somewhere else to upgrade or stay FO for a long time.

Would this mean a national payscale? "Hey ATA, these are the rates for the 737 for 2009."

Interesting.

Hard to say if management would like this or a national pay scale. Some would in that it would put everyone on a level playing field in regards to labor. Others would not...those who want to subsidize cheap tickets with low cost labor. I like the idea in general but I just don't think it would work. Many airlines would find a way around it and pilots would stab each other in the back.

 

[Raskal]

... Many airlines would find a way around it and pilots would stab each other in the back...

As opposed to now?

 

[Flopgut]

If you were hired by an FAR 121 carrier before 1974 and lost your job you had job protections at another carrier that was hiring. This was a benefit provided by the RLA that was removed by ALPA at UALALPA's urging so UAL wouldn't have to hire any of the Frontier pilots back in 1986.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Maybe we need a Union Scale. Don't they do that in other businesses? You can work for more than scale, but not for less.

"I hear that XYZ is paying scale plus 15%"
"I heard that ABC pays 10%, but you get a monthly bonus based on under-burn!"

Maybe we could actually have a big stick when it comes to strikes.

 

[Flopgut]

The best way to accomplish a comprehensively good NSL-type device for this profession is to leverage it against the RLA. Go after the RLA! Either we keep working under it and we get the good aspects, or we dump it and go with the NLRB. Either way we win and it attacks the strategy set against us.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

If you were hired by an FAR 121 carrier before 1974 and lost your job you had job protections at another carrier that was hiring. This was a benefit provided by the RLA that was removed by ALPA at UALALPA's urging so UAL wouldn't have to hire any of the Frontier pilots back in 1986.

Really? I missed that section of transportation history. What protections did those pilots get?

 

[HalinTexas]

Would this include non-ALPA pilots?

Would ALPA be the keeper of the list?

What about those of us that are unemployed from an ALPA airline? Any airline?

I'm for it, but it'll never happen. Too many lawsuits to settle.

 

[Raskal]

Would this include non-ALPA pilots?

Would ALPA be the keeper of the list?

What about those of us that are unemployed from an ALPA airline? Any airline?

I'm for it, but it'll never happen. Too many lawsuits to settle.

You'd have to look to other industries for guidance there, but the short answer is the airlines would have to have either a single union on the national level or at least some kind of joint agreement between unions, local and national.

I still believe it can work.

 

[B190Captain]

Would this include non-ALPA pilots?

Would ALPA be the keeper of the list?

What about those of us that are unemployed from an ALPA airline? Any airline?

I'm for it, but it'll never happen. Too many lawsuits to settle.

maybe your number can be determined by the Issuance of your ATP or Commercial ME.

 

[Flopgut]

Really? I missed that section of transportation history. What protections did those pilots get?

Frontier pilots were case in point. Lorenzo didn't particuliarly want to hire the FAL pilots he ended up with. But those with hire dates before 74 were protected and all ended up flying Captain at CAL.

 

[HalinTexas]

maybe your number can be determined by the Issuance of your ATP or Commercial ME.

That's the point that I would support. It's also the most arbitrary. (Mine's August 1993)

Other things could be worked out like a national longevity list as opposed to a seniority list. This would entail keeping your longevity, but losing your seniority when you change jobs. Another requirement: first furloughed, first hired. When there are furloughes out there, they get first shot at jobs they apply.