National seniority list.

[HalinTexas]

This discussion has departed reality.

No furloughed pilot from one carrier could displace a pilot from another carrier. If 2nd carrier was hiring, then the furloughed pilot could (should) slide into the equipment he is qualified on with DOH protection. But the hiring carrier would have to be compelled to hire from the "furloughed pilot" group. I don't think anyone is suggesting that a furloughed pilot has superior rights to a job.

As I've said before, furloughed pilots should get hiring priority, seniority is less of an issue than longevity for the purposes of pay/benefits.

When you speak of "unity" what else could you mean?

 

[waveflyer]

This would at least bring being a pilot closer to an actual profession with freedom of movement as opposed to being handcuffed to a single company and having to ride it all the way down because leaving would entail starting over. An Accountant or Attorney, etc., can leave for any reason if he doesn't like the direction his/her firm is going and usually makes more at the new company.

that's the point and the problem to be solved.
everyone knows i used to be the biggest fan of an NSL- i still think it could work- though it would be the mother of all seniority integrations.

flattening out pay rates and getting rid of 1st year pay seems more american.

 

[HalinTexas]

I'll fly anything and sit on the bottom of a list for what I was making last March before ATA shut down.

 

[noperf]

If those who brought this forward were willing to lead by example I've got a suggestion. Let them propose to the mangement of the airline(s) they work for to bring the senior SAS pilots who are being layed off out of senioruty onto their seniority list(s).

 

[waveflyer]

exactly-- it's not really the seniority problem- it's the pay problem-
the true problem is that this career has become a case of the have's and have not's. That doesn't work.

 

[B190Captain]

B190:

OK, so there are 10 jobs at Mesa, 6 at SkyWest, 1 at SWA and 1 at FDX and 108 applicants. Who gets what and how?

Just like it is today. Apply, interview, good luck!

It will not prioritize when seeking employment.If furloughed it would be up the employer to prioritize. If hired the pilot will fall based on your overall longevity to whatever seat or ac you can hold. To hold PIC will only be based on slot availability.

 

[Mamma]

Just like it is today. Apply, interview, good luck!

It will not prioritize when seeking employment.If furloughed it would be up the employer to prioritize. If hired the pilot will fall based on your overall longevity to whatever seat or ac you can hold. To hold PIC will only be based on slot availability.

Slot availability??? What FO is going to turn down a captain upgrade at their airline??? This list would be a knife in the back of all FOs looking to upgrade at THEIR airline if upgrades were open to all NSL pilots. Say I am next in line to upgrade at Alaska having waited 13 years and some guy from US Air with higher seniority wanted to move to Seattle and take that job. I would be pissed to no end. Why would a company go outside to find a captain when they have a fully trained FO that has the culture and processes ingrained? They would not. They move the FO up and hire a newbie for peanuts. There would never be available slots.

 

[B190Captain]

Slot availability??? What FO is going to turn down a captain upgrade at their airline??? This list would be a knife in the back of all FOs looking to upgrade at THEIR airline if upgrades were open to all NSL pilots. Say I am next in line to upgrade at Alaska having waited 13 years and some guy from US Air with higher seniority wanted to move to Seattle and take that job. I would be pissed to no end. Why would a company go outside to find a captain when they have a fully trained FO that has the culture and processes ingrained? They would not. They move the FO up and hire a newbie for peanuts. There would never be available slots.

FO's turning down captain slots do happen. Some turn it down for quality of life or they want to be permafos. I am not saying I have all the answers but I would rather be a 15 year pilot and keep my 15 years wherever I go.

Maybe it could be just for pay then? If you are moving to another carrier because you want to move to Seattle you would have to start at the bottom as far as seat and entry equipment but keep your longevity pay.

Just ideas folks. I am not writing policy here..LOL

 

[~~~^~~~]

I understand the longevity arguement & agree, but airlines are going to do their darn'est to avoid hiring those with pay longevity.

The former President of my former employer stood in recurrent and told our class of Captains the airline's problems were the direct result of our longevity making us more expensive than the airline that was replacing us. We "old timers" in our mid-thirties needed to move on, or else the market would do it for us.

In many ways, this problem is an ALPA construct. The absence of scope on the regional level makes the market seek out the lowest cost operator, which is always the airline with the new pilots and new airplanes.

Again, United needs to fix the flying within their own brand before they branch out to claim longevity on other's property IMHO.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

This is the mother of all bad ideas, a national seniority list removes all scope language from all contracts(everyone is on one list right?). EXTREMELY DANGEROUS given the loose bankruptcy laws. We would all be one 1113(c) away from total career destruction.

 

[Mamma]

FO's turning down captain slots do happen. Some turn it down for quality of life or they want to be permafos. I am not saying I have all the answers but I would rather be a 15 year pilot and keep my 15 years wherever I go.

Maybe it could be just for pay then? If you are moving to another carrier because you want to move to Seattle you would have to start at the bottom as far as seat and entry equipment but keep your longevity pay.

Just ideas folks. I am not writing policy here..LOL

I did not mean to be rash but I still cannot find any logic on how to make this work. I fully agree that we are in a bad spot as things are currently but I just don't see managements hiring new guys at 15 year pay when they can get guys on the cheap from the military or off the street. You are right though in that many turn down Capt upgrades but there are many below them that would take the upgrade and do. The feeling I get from this resolution is the UA MEC is trying to keep their guys from losing seniority should they go under. They have a lot of longevity over there and it would be a tragedy for that many guys starting over.
The only way this could work IMHO is to have all the pilots work for one or two national unions (companies) that the airlines "lease" from. Pay, benefits and the such are set and paid for by the unions. The unions/companies are in charge of all training and the such and each pilot is government certified once they complete the training program. The airlines could only "lease" certified pilots from these companies. The pilot then works for that airline and conforms to all their policies. Just a thought and it is wild but I cannot see it happening if all pilots worked for individual airlines. Won't work.

 

[TWA]

Do any other industries use national seniority lists?

 

[BobbyBiplane]

If those who brought this forward were willing to lead by example I've got a suggestion. Let them propose to the mangement of the airline(s) they work for to bring the senior SAS pilots who are being layed off out of senioruty onto their seniority list(s).

Again, I refer you to the Pan Am acquisition of the non-union Ransome Airlines. The then PAA MEC Chair and 1st VP of ALPA national placed the Ransome pilots on the Pan Am seniority list by date of hire at Ransome, post the "Gill Award" (integrating the PAA & National folks). Following that action pilots hired into PAA or PAE were placed on a common seniority list by date of hire at either carrier.

 

[B190Captain]

Do any other industries use national seniority lists?

Electricians that belong to the "Union" hold that card and can do any job anywhere and get paid for their services based on their current pay and benefits.

I think the Longshoremen and railroad workers could do that as well but I am not sure.

 

[HAL]

I don't understand something here; yes, the if the NSL is approved a company could hire somebody who already has, say, 15 years seniority at another airline. But would they be required to pay that person 15 year pay? That person may be at the 15 year point on the seniority list, but by the new airline's eyes, he's a new hire!. Wouldn't he be paid 1st year pay even though he may be sitting left seat in a widebody?

HAL

 

[General Lee]

I could MAYBE see preferential hiring for other Union members, but at THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST. Sorry, if you rolled the dice and went with another airline (your choice, nobody FORCED you), then you have to start over. Entitlement is soooo USAIR Eastie--ish.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[michael707767]

I don't support this. I don't think you can fairly come up with a single list. Initial DOH? Initial membership in ALPA? Date of Comm/ME?

Think about it. How many folks would have done approached their career choices differently if some arbitrary date is used for a national list? It's not fair to people to change the rules now.

Come up with a fair way to make up the list, and I might support it. But I just don't think you can come up with a fair list.

Seperately, no airline would agree to this. Since none of the current contracts include a nationa seniority list and the right to transfer that seniority, it would have to be negotiated. How much negotiating capital would it cost to force an airline to hire a pilot from the list?

 

[Flopgut]

Really? I missed that section of transportation history. What protections did those pilots get?

To better answer your question: These pilots didn't have to interview for the job. The job was thiers they just had to be intergrated. That's the main issue in this of course. I think all of us would agree that if your airline goes away it's probably not realistic to think you're going to get to integrate at a hiring carrier at the seniority level you were at. But if you could know that you had a job and some sort of intergration that would be good. Especially where if there was an airline that absorbed your former carrier to some degree you had some hiring assurance that would be good. It's important to note: this profession had this at one time. The same a$$clowns that recently pushed for 65 are the ones who scuttled RLA protections 20 years ago.

 

[Flopgut]

At the same time we discuss a NSL, or any other device that helps us work better and longer, we need to talk about how to fiinsh working [retire]. This also pertains to the RLA in my opinion. Face it, most of us would retire at an appropriate time if we had the money. The RLA contains a retirement plan for railroad workers but excludes airline workers. Basically it gets you retired in 20-25 years with a years of service criteria. If we got a similiar benefit that rail workers have right now, we could expect ALL 121 pilots to have a benefit regardless of airplane size, a durable benefit that starts at 10 years of service, unemployment benefits built into the plan in addition to the job protections we are talking about in this thread. It's a good deal.

 

[HalinTexas]

OK, do nothing. The present system works so well............for the employed.

Unity, schmunity. Profession my a$$.

You all whine and complain about things that need to change, but none of you offer solutions. You toubt the party line. The party is part of the problem!