National seniority list.

[~~~^~~~]

Biggest flaw I see is what incentive would mgmt have to hire a guy with more longevity than a more junior (i.e. cheaper) pilot?

Exactly. This would ensure more senior pilots would not get hired. Flow through schemes would be even more attractive to employers to plug up the pipeline.

What bugs me most of all, is that there are still no bridges being built to carriers like SkyWest who will perform most of the outsourced 737 flying. Through mismanagement of scope, ALPA has done more than anyone to destroy longevity and seniority by creating artificial barriers to pilots engaged in any major airline's flying.

This move is like wanting to get off the Titanic, but refusing to board one of those rickety wooden life boats. Instead they demand first class tickets on the Royal Caribbean Genesis.

One list within the brand is the correct first step in this direction.

This has less chance of passing than age 65... nevermind. But, this will further divide ALPA. UAL did not want this until is benefitted them. I can't see the political alignment for this and the resulting disappointment will harm UAL morale and ultimately harm ALPA's support base.

 

[noperf]

Joe,

You're question is a red herring. The definition of viable, etc. is dependent on the beholder. Most, maybe all, of the debt holders of NWA, DAL, UAL, and US Airways consider them to be viable in one manner or another. Like I said- a national seniority list will be the tolling of the bell for ALPA national.

 

[waveflyer]

Before an NSL- how about we flatten out wages and get rid of this tradition of '1st' year pay. Even out the wages between FO and CA- (make the difference 15-20% instead of the 40-70% or more that it is now) Go to one-rate no matter what you fly. A bigger revenue producer joins the fleet- all pilots see the pay increase.
It's not about ego- it's about leverage and the fact that a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. In the airline world- it's a whole lot more valuable.
Stop chasing the carrot.
If this happens- you'll have good jobs in year 1- and that alleviates most of the concerns in this career while keeping capitalism fully intact.

There would need to be cooperation among unions and MEC's on this. Their does need to be a national plan- and leaders who will get everyone on board.

 

[FR8mastr]

I have read some fine examples of why ALPA has been such a success as of late on this thread. "I got mine so screw you"
Don't worry General I'm sure if something like this ever saw the light of day, there would be no sidestepping to another carrier just because they are more senior. It would surly be vacancy driven, and only if the pilot wishing to move was unemployed. I am also sure there would be protections for pilots working now prior to the implementation date of the new rules. (as there should be).
All that leaves is the "I'm superior because my airline is bigger, or better, than yours" attitude. We all know there is, and was, a tremendous amount of luck associated with getting hired wherever you are.

 

[Dan Roman]

A national seniority list would be the death knell of ALPA. No pilot group at a financially stable and viable airline would elect to remain ALPA. Management would love it. This is just more divide and conquer fodder for management.

True. I said elsewere that airlines like Alaska and Hawaiian would probably get out of ALPA. Otherwise, with domicles like SEA and HNL, they would just be taken over by senior out of work UAL pilots at the expense of the current pilots.

 

[waveflyer]

An NSL wouldn't work unless you could move freely - carrier to carrier when vacancies occurred.

 

[~~~^~~~]

We all know there is, and was, a tremendous amount of luck associated with getting hired wherever you are.

Luck, yes. But many only applied with their #1 choice and were hired there. This is true of most pilots at SWA, FDX and DAL.

It isn't fair to be able to hedge one's bets by taking a risky street captain job with a start up at way below industry wages, then use that position to double down on a job with a more established carrier.

UAL would not support this if SkyBus pilots were lining up for interviews.

 

[PCL_128]

For once I'm agreeing with JoeyMerchant and disagreeing with Fins and the General. Weird.

 

[FR8mastr]

Luck, yes. But many only applied with their #1 choice and were hired there. This is true of most pilots at SWA, FDX and DAL.

It isn't fair to be able to hedge one's bets by taking a risky street captain job with a start up at way below industry wages, then use that position to double down on a job with a more established carrier.

UAL would not support this if SkyBus pilots were lining up for interviews.

I agree that everyone with a pilots license has SWA and FDX as there end all beat all of jobs now, this was not the case 10 years ago. Yes there are always individuals that want a certain carrier and they go for it. However the carrier du jour may not be in such good graces 10 years from now.
Your other points are valid and would have to be addressed to protect the pilots that you have described. In the end, (the big picture) the profession would be much better off. If our kids were crazy enough to follow us into this mess their carreer stability would ourperform ours handily. Remember the other unions have been doing it this way forever, it seems to work.

 

[~~~^~~~]

For once I'm agreeing with JoeyMerchant and disagreeing with Fins and the General. Weird.

It is an interesting academic debate. How can United continue to justify outsourcing schemes and scope that have non-united pilots performing UAL flying, while they want to transport seniority rights to FDX, CAL or DAL?

Obviously they want some flying, but not flying they consider to be beneath them.

If they are coming at this from a morality angle, they need to clean up their own house first.