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National seniority list.

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That's essentialy it. A regional guy may see this as an opportunity to move up, but this looks like a pretty transparent attempt to take someone elses job if UAL craters.

It's kinda pathetic really. Joe Merchant was also an RJDC member, which means he was lazy and never wanted to "start over" the same way thousands of pilots ahead and behind him did----by APPLYING to another airline. Some people just feel entitled, or know they couldn't pass an interview.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
So general-
Mgmt everywhere- including delta- is using our socialist seniority system against us (b/c they know we'll do ANYTHING to avoid starting completely over at the bottom at poverty wages)
And you think we should just keep doing what we are doing?
Normally i'd agree w/ your "too bad" logic. But our own seniority system undermines the free hand of competition- and certainly doesn't reward the most capable and qualified. It rewards the lucky.
A NSL will have issues-= but until we can move from company to company w/o such an insane hit to our life, we will see wages slide.
Good job UAL
(from a non-UAL pilot)
 
Fact is that this is really the way that it needs to go. Yeah, lots of us will get screwed, but once again you need to think long term.
 
Don't anybody worry. Management will never go for it. I mean, really, every single union carrier would have to go for it for it to work. What's their incentive?

Regardless, there's only one way a NSL could even possibly work and that's to start it with the first pilot hired after a certain starting date. No way it can be retroactively imposed. Too many richards would get stepped on.
 
So ALPA is finally back to where it was in 1985 when Erol Johnstadt (PAA) proposed a national seniority list. Now we will see whether the membership has come far enough along to understand its benefits.

Bob
 
What's stopping an airline from undercutting this seniority list? Hire from overseas, hire direct from college...not to mention their are a zillion pilots ready to stab the rest in the back if it benefits them. Why would XYZ airline hire a 10 year FO that expects 10 year wages? How would a furlough be managed? Would pilots at an airline properly run suffer when a more senior mismanaged airline goes under? Lot of questions to be asked here but if you come right down to it, it seems the case of the more senior pilots sticking it to the junior guys again.
 
Wow, despite this being flightinfo I can't believe the number of negative posts. Regardless of motivation, this is exactly what has been needed for decades-I only hope those who are opposed will see the absolute necessity of a national list.

Someone wrote that management would never go for it-well no kidding! This would enable all of us to have better job/income security than ever AND at a time when we need it the most, and will completely eliminate the main motivation for alter-ego creations and the like. No longer will a new airline be cheaper to run because of first-year pay scales. This could go a long way toward killing the whipsaw tactics once and for all.

Whether this be selfishly motivated on UAL's part or not, think about it. Does a 10,000 hr capt coming off a career at a failed carrier and starting in the right seat junior to a guy with a quarter of his experience make any sense at all? No-it's insane.
 
That "You made your choice, not deal with it" mentality would make more sense to me if the pilots actually had a say in how things are run.

Let's say I went to ABC Air because they looked good, but it turns out that there's a management change that's bad for whatever reason. I take my services elsewhere.

But what if airline XYZ looks good to all pilots, and everyone comes over? Now FOs are either forced to go somewhere else to upgrade or stay FO for a long time.

Would this mean a national payscale? "Hey ATA, these are the rates for the 737 for 2009."

Interesting.
 
That "You made your choice, not deal with it" mentality would make more sense to me if the pilots actually had a say in how things are run.

Let's say I went to ABC Air because they looked good, but it turns out that there's a management change that's bad for whatever reason. I take my services elsewhere.

But what if airline XYZ looks good to all pilots, and everyone comes over? Now FOs are either forced to go somewhere else to upgrade or stay FO for a long time.

Would this mean a national payscale? "Hey ATA, these are the rates for the 737 for 2009."

Interesting.

I think that might be oversimplifying a bit. No, I don't think there would be a national scale-some companies pay more than others, just like everywhere else in business.

The other point about 'what if everyone decides to go to xyz airline and displace everyone...', just because you hold a number doesn't entitle anyone to a job, it just dictates the level at which they're hired in at. Tons of folks want in at NJA-they hire what they need.

Not to mention, I would assume that protections would be standard as to displacement and hiring would be based on vacancy openings.

Real possibilities here.
 
That "You made your choice, not deal with it" mentality would make more sense to me if the pilots actually had a say in how things are run.

Let's say I went to ABC Air because they looked good, but it turns out that there's a management change that's bad for whatever reason. I take my services elsewhere.

But what if airline XYZ looks good to all pilots, and everyone comes over? Now FOs are either forced to go somewhere else to upgrade or stay FO for a long time.

Would this mean a national payscale? "Hey ATA, these are the rates for the 737 for 2009."

Interesting.

Hard to say if management would like this or a national pay scale. Some would in that it would put everyone on a level playing field in regards to labor. Others would not...those who want to subsidize cheap tickets with low cost labor. I like the idea in general but I just don't think it would work. Many airlines would find a way around it and pilots would stab each other in the back.
 

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