National seniority list.

[Raskal]

... Many airlines would find a way around it and pilots would stab each other in the back...

As opposed to now?

 

[Flopgut]

If you were hired by an FAR 121 carrier before 1974 and lost your job you had job protections at another carrier that was hiring. This was a benefit provided by the RLA that was removed by ALPA at UALALPA's urging so UAL wouldn't have to hire any of the Frontier pilots back in 1986.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Maybe we need a Union Scale. Don't they do that in other businesses? You can work for more than scale, but not for less.

"I hear that XYZ is paying scale plus 15%"
"I heard that ABC pays 10%, but you get a monthly bonus based on under-burn!"

Maybe we could actually have a big stick when it comes to strikes.

 

[Flopgut]

The best way to accomplish a comprehensively good NSL-type device for this profession is to leverage it against the RLA. Go after the RLA! Either we keep working under it and we get the good aspects, or we dump it and go with the NLRB. Either way we win and it attacks the strategy set against us.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

If you were hired by an FAR 121 carrier before 1974 and lost your job you had job protections at another carrier that was hiring. This was a benefit provided by the RLA that was removed by ALPA at UALALPA's urging so UAL wouldn't have to hire any of the Frontier pilots back in 1986.

Really? I missed that section of transportation history. What protections did those pilots get?

 

[HalinTexas]

Would this include non-ALPA pilots?

Would ALPA be the keeper of the list?

What about those of us that are unemployed from an ALPA airline? Any airline?

I'm for it, but it'll never happen. Too many lawsuits to settle.

 

[Raskal]

Would this include non-ALPA pilots?

Would ALPA be the keeper of the list?

What about those of us that are unemployed from an ALPA airline? Any airline?

I'm for it, but it'll never happen. Too many lawsuits to settle.

You'd have to look to other industries for guidance there, but the short answer is the airlines would have to have either a single union on the national level or at least some kind of joint agreement between unions, local and national.

I still believe it can work.

 

[B190Captain]

Would this include non-ALPA pilots?

Would ALPA be the keeper of the list?

What about those of us that are unemployed from an ALPA airline? Any airline?

I'm for it, but it'll never happen. Too many lawsuits to settle.

maybe your number can be determined by the Issuance of your ATP or Commercial ME.

 

[Flopgut]

Really? I missed that section of transportation history. What protections did those pilots get?

Frontier pilots were case in point. Lorenzo didn't particuliarly want to hire the FAL pilots he ended up with. But those with hire dates before 74 were protected and all ended up flying Captain at CAL.

 

[HalinTexas]

maybe your number can be determined by the Issuance of your ATP or Commercial ME.

That's the point that I would support. It's also the most arbitrary. (Mine's August 1993)

Other things could be worked out like a national longevity list as opposed to a seniority list. This would entail keeping your longevity, but losing your seniority when you change jobs. Another requirement: first furloughed, first hired. When there are furloughes out there, they get first shot at jobs they apply.

 

[B190Captain]

That's the point that I would support. It's also the most arbitrary. (Mine's August 1993)

Other things could be worked out like a national longevity list as opposed to a seniority list. This would entail keeping your longevity, but losing your seniority when you change jobs. Another requirement: first furloughed, first hired. When there are furloughes out there, they get first shot at jobs they apply.

I believe that would be the most fair way to determine where your number and pay will fall and based on equipment of course. Granted, not everyone has an ATP (career FO's) so I guess once you are qualified to fly for hire in a ME AC then the COM ticket would be a better way.

No matter what airline you work for you would get longevity pay per ac type. Once you get the certificate you are part of the Union or guild and if you are working with a non-union carrier you would be inactive unless you gain employment in a unionized carrier. The work rules remain the same for everyone (union or non union) so if someone starts an airline without a union and flies 737's to get pilots to fill those seats they would have to pay the universal rate. TO UNITE/NATIONALIZE THE PROFESSION IS THE GOAL NOT JUST THE UNIONIZED CARRIERS. THIS WOULD BRING US ALL TOGETHER.That would gain the most unity and one voice and eliminate pilot groups battling each other.

 

[Raskal]

That's the point that I would support. It's also the most arbitrary. (Mine's August 1993)

Other things could be worked out like a national longevity list as opposed to a seniority list. This would entail keeping your longevity, but losing your seniority when you change jobs. Another requirement: first furloughed, first hired. When there are furloughes out there, they get first shot at jobs they apply.

Good points, but not sure about the ATP date. In the other outside industry examples I can think of the date (longevity or seniority) is based upon union membership. I like the longevity idea though.

 

[B190Captain]

Good points, but not sure about the ATP date. In the other outside industry examples I can think of the date (longevity or seniority) is based upon union membership. I like the longevity idea though.

I don't agree union membership is the way to go. There are many pilots that do not have membership because they work for non union carriers. The most fair way is issuance of your COMM ME ticket. The database is in place (FAA) with all names and dates.

 

[StopNTSing]

Biggest flaw I see is what incentive would mgmt have to hire a guy with more longevity than a more junior (i.e. cheaper) pilot?

 

[B190Captain]

Biggest flaw I see is what incentive would mgmt have to hire a guy with more longevity than a more junior (i.e. cheaper) pilot?

Unfortunately I have to agree with that statement. Maybe there could be a clause to prevent that stating as long as more experienced or earlier dates of issuance are available for hire then those pilots would be considered first. (Just a thought) MAYBE IT COULD BE comm SE OR ME. This would even protect the SE pilots flying for hire in a Pilatus for example. It would apply for Part 135/121 and freight dawgs!

If a company or companies take advantage then it would be documented and a pattern will become apparent.

 

[HalinTexas]

There would be no incentive, unless that more experienced pilot is furloughed from another carrier.

 

[TWA]

What happens to FO Johnny at airline XYZ when airline ABC goes Tango Uniform? Does he get furloughed so the more senior pilots at airline ABC can hold onto a job? When an airline furloughs, do the guys at the bottom of the national list end up getting the shaft, regardless of how good or bad their carrier is doing?

Also, when an airline is hiring, must they always take the most senior person who applied? What if the person at the top of the list is borderline incompetent and the hiring board decides they really don't want him? What happens then?

Too many unknowns.

 

[lookin4better]

The last part of your statement is one reason companies will not sign off on this-----being forced to 'hire' someone they dont want.

The idea is great, one list, one union for one profession.....of course this summation is very general and there are so many moving pieces it may be impossible.

 

[noperf]

A national seniority list would be the death knell of ALPA. No pilot group at a financially stable and viable airline would elect to remain ALPA. Management would love it. This is just more divide and conquer fodder for management.

 

[JoeMerchant]

A national seniority list would be the death knell of ALPA. No pilot group at a financially stable and viable airline would elect to remain ALPA. Management would love it. This is just more divide and conquer fodder for management.

How many "financially stable and viable airlines" do we have in ALPA?