Look before you leap, NJASAP!

[B19 Flyer]

NJW,

WAVE OFF! WAVE OFF! WAVE OFF!




Don't respond, this thread has gone on too long as it is.

R,
265

Her husband is former Air Force, she has no idea what you mean. But she'll make something up like she always does because she's an expert and all, ya know?

As long as she wants to attack me, call me names and speak on behalf of other groups she has no part of (FLOPS) and take credit for work she has never personally done, I think there is a need to point out the facts. The only thing I can do is just place the reminder, that she is only a pilot's wife who is entitled to her opinion.
She only supports pilot unions, not the frac industry or any other facet of aviation because she doesn't understand it.

 

[brokeflyer]

Her husband is former Air Force, she has no idea what you mean. But she'll make something up like she always does because she's an expert and all, ya know?

As long as she wants to attack me, call me names and speak on behalf of other groups she has no part of (FLOPS) and take credit for work she has never personally done, I think there is a need to point out the facts. The only thing I can do is just place the reminder, that she is only a pilot's wife who is entitled to her opinion.
She only supports pilot unions, not the frac industry or any other facet of aviation because she doesn't understand it.

sniffle sniffle.....sorry im all out of tissues for you....lol

pathetic...lol

 

[B19 Flyer]

sniffle sniffle.....sorry im all out of tissues for you....lol

pathetic...lol

I would expect you to be out of tissues.

Nobody cries like a union pilot. :crying:

 

[Ultra Grump]

Back on topic - where the hell is Mooneymite? I'm still waiting for the answers to my questions.

 

[Mooneymite]

Back on topic - where the hell is Mooneymite? I'm still waiting for the answers to my questions.

I've been watching the thread. It seems to have gotten hijacked by certain shrill voices.

I posed a question about the wisdom of further fragmenting the power of labor and the thread turned into a platform for all sorts of peeves about organized labor. That wasn't the intent of my original post (does anyone even remember the original post?!)

There have been some thoughtful posts, but there's been a lot of static, too. I'd be interested in hearing how NJASAP plans on influencing labor legislation and court appointees. Organized labor has effected changes over the years that we benefit from today. How will we keep from being over-run if organized labor is further fragmented?

I'm interested in hearing what people think. I certainly don't have the answer...just questions. I've enjoyed the thoughtful posts on this thread. I think we need to slow down and understand the depth of what NetJets' labor leaders are proposing. They aren't necessarily doing the wrong thing; I just hate to see a mad rush to do what may be the wrong thing with 40 years of retrospect.

MM

 

[IDEtoNJA]

I've been watching the thread. It seems to have gotten hijacked by certain shrill voices.

I posed a question about the wisdom of further fragmenting the power of labor and the thread turned into a platform for all sorts of peeves about organized labor. That wasn't the intent of my original post (does anyone even remember the original post?!)

There have been some thoughtful posts, but there's been a lot of static, too. I'd be interested in hearing how NJASAP plans on influencing labor legislation and court appointees. Organized labor has effected changes over the years that we benefit from today. How will we keep from being over-run if organized labor is further fragmented?

I'm interested in hearing what people think. I certainly don't have the answer...just questions. I've enjoyed the thoughtful posts on this thread. I think we need to slow down and understand the depth of what NetJets' labor leaders are proposing. They aren't necessarily doing the wrong thing; I just hate to see a mad rush to do what may be the wrong thing with 40 years of retrospect.

MM

MM,

What did the disaffiliation of the IBT from the AFL-CIO achieve? Would it be of greater benefit to re-affiliate ourselves we the AFL-CIO; and by extension, with ITUC? Would it be of greater benefit to join forces within a "loose" affiliation amid different pilot groups in the US and abroad?

Just as yourself, I have more question then answers.

IDEtoNJA

 

[Mooneymite]

MM,

What did the disaffiliation of the IBT from the AFL-CIO achieve? Would it be of greater benefit to re-affiliate ourselves we the AFL-CIO; and by extension, with ITUC? Would it be of greater benefit to join forces within a "loose" affiliation amid different pilot groups in the US and abroad?

Just as yourself, I have more question then answers.

IDEtoNJA

Interesting. I'm glad you're asking those questions. They need answers...or at least we need to try to answer them.

I see this as kind of a "confederation vs centralization" type question. Is the labor movement morphing into a confederation and away from strong central control, or is it just "de-constructing"?

Which will be more effective in combating big business? Who will set the "game plan" for labor, or will we all pursue our own agendas independently?

I'd like to know if there even IS a game plan for the survival of labor as we know it.

MM

 

[IDEtoNJA]

Interesting. I'm glad you're asking those questions. They need answers...or at least we need to try to answer them.

I see this as kind of a "confederation vs centralization" type question. Is the labor movement morphing into a confederation and away from strong central control, or is it just "de-constructing"?

Which will be more effective in combating big business? Who will set the "game plan" for labor, or will we all pursue our own agendas independently?

I'd like to know if there even IS a game plan for the survival of labor as we know it.

MM

MM,

I think that organized labor as we have known it has been "de-constructing" for a long time!

IDEtoNJA

 

[realityman]

MM,

I don't believe there was a rush into this. Our leaders have been hinting for quite a while now that this was coming. Yes, it's happening now and the rank and file has much less time to think through it than our leaders did, but they are very receptive to questions and I don't think any of them would shy away from giving you the answers you seek.

Which of course makes me wonder why you're posting these concerns on FI. Our own message boards, as well as contact info for ALL our leaders, is on the union boards.

But back on point. I had some questions myself, but they've been answered. And like I said, this has been thought through for quite a while by our leaders. I don't think they're taking rash or hasty action.

There is a certain commonality to all labor in this country. That can't be argued. But there are enough differences between the different working groups that I don't believe any one group can represent them all. Heck, ALPA can't seem to represent the interests of both the mainline and regional pilots who are members. How are IBT supposed to support our needs vs., say, the airlines that they represent. As has been mentioned before, the airlines and their members are probably best served by supporting user fees, while the fractionals, charters, and pure 91 operators will be taking the opposite stance. How would IBT reconcile these differences in representation?

Just read our own message boards and the posts from our leaders and you'll see many many times where we've asked the IBT for assistance and it simply was never given, and no explanation forthcoming as to why they wouldn't help. Bill Olsen himself has said the IBT really doesn't even understand our part of the industry, and doesn't seem to have any desire to educate themselves about it. While pilots, truckers, mechanics, and such have many labor needs in common, there are simply too many differences in other areas of our needs for the IBT to be able to effectively represent us all.

True, it might be nice to have their political connections (do they honestly have any these days that are effective?), but I truly believe they need to start by showing they're receptive to our immediate local needs, before they can stand up for us on a national scale. So far, they've failed miserably on the micro scale and I personally have no confidence in them on the macro scale.

 

[Mooneymite]

MM,

True, it might be nice to have their political connections (do they honestly have any these days that are effective?), but I truly believe they need to start by showing they're receptive to our immediate local needs, before they can stand up for us on a national scale. So far, they've failed miserably on the micro scale and I personally have no confidence in them on the macro scale.

Realityman, your complaint is one I see time and time again. I think it is misplaced. I don't think the national headquarters has any mandate to involve itself with local issues. There are far bigger issues for "national" to deal with. Lobbying, influencing legislation, and matters of public policy are the business of national headquarters.

We do not want the national headquarters either fighting our battles, or sticking its nose into our business. We need a national organization to keep this country safe for labor, and to make it a place where a local union will have laws and judges which will create an environment where the locals can prevail.

It is up to US, to do our part on the local level.

The more that labor fragments, the less favorable the political environment will become and the less favorable the outcome of the local battles.

It is a vicious circle where the less effective the national unions, the more defection there is and the more defection there is, the less effective the national.

Is NJASAP part of the problem, or part of the solution? I'll tell you in about 60 years.

 

[realityman]

MM,

You make a valid point. We certainly don't want them sticking their heads into our local's business just any old time they feel like it. Would certainly slow things down for us, instead of helping.

HOWEVER, should they do absolutely nothing when ASKED for assistance by a group that sends them a great deal of money every month?

And again, I beg you to go back and read Bill O's numerous posts on the subject. He has told us several times that when he asked for their help, ON THE NATIONAL LEVEL, that in essence, they were nowhere to be found. You keep advocating that we need representation on the national level. Well, when we asked for help with it, it wasn't there. Like I said, don't take my word for it. Go back and read the information from the people who were directly involved. That's what I did.

When the FAA convened the FOARC to come up with the new 91K regs, NJA had reps there, including at least one individual from our own local. But where the heck was our representation from the IBT? What? Dealing with the FAA directly wasn't national enough for them?

Fact is, they have no clue about our side of the industry. And they simply refuse to learn. The plight of all labor is our plight too, up to a certain point. But there simply isn't any way they can effectively represent us on the national level if they don't even understand us. Heck, go and read it from our leaders. They've demonstrated how IBT doesn't really even understand the RLA!! That's pretty freaking significant! And not in a good way for us.

As for 60 years from now, you're right again. Who knows? But hey, it'll only be at the end of this contract when we can really determine if we did the right thing with this IBB. It'll only be at the end of the next president's term of office when we know if we elected the right person. It'll only be at the end of your career when you know if you invested your 401K properly. All we can do for now is take the information at hand and make the best decision possible. Our leaders have looked at this for a while now. The rank and file are getting much less time to evaluate things. But not everyone is a follower. You're not. And that's good. I try not to be, but I'm not as smart as many others, so prefer to look for the right questions asked by others and see what the answers are. Then evaluate and decide. From what I've seen, we need to get away from the IBT.

By the way, did you read any of the 'informational mailings' by Hoffa? What'd you think of him trying to take credit for the things our leaders, and WE THE PILOTS, accomplished without any help from them? Do you trust someone who would lie to the very people who are in the best position to know better? That not only makes them liars, but stupid to boot.

Maybe we will need a powerful representational voice in Washington in the future, but the IBT is on its way out. Something better will come along. Even if it's ourselves.

 

[netjetwife]

MM, the NJ pilots don't have the luxury of waiting to make up their minds; the time for action is now--at the beginning of a long contract in an era of cooperation with the Company --timing doesn't get any better than this. I agree with everything Realityman has posted. You say you're worried about the "game plan" for labor; then it should concern you that the IBT doesn't even get on the field when frac issues come up. All the potential things you think they could do for us can't stack up against the fact that they don't have the expertise, or even the motivation, to get involved. NJ pilots have talked to Teamster officials who don't even know who NJA is or that the pilots are in the IBT. That could be excused possibly, but what about the fact that they surveyed members and didn't have "pilot" as a possible labor group for the NJ pilot who got called?! :erm: That sums up their lack of interest quite well I think.

The decision is far from hasty. Pilots proposed it when we were leaving 284 and setting up 1108, but the timing wasn't right then. Obviously, the NJASAP leaders considered it carefully before sinking time and money into the decertification campaign. They read the pilot group correctly going by the way the cards poured in.

You ask good questions, MM, but I'm not sure they're even necessary. If you read the NJASAP website a lot of them would be answered and, as RM, points out, those that aren't can be voiced directly to the NJASAP Directors. As a leadership group they are visionary thinkers with ambition and concern for the industry. They've made themselves available for questions and can discuss their personal experiences in trying to get help from the Teamsters. A number of them (AV, ML, JB..off the top of my head) have posted on the subject in response to questions similar to yours. It seems that those of us posting on the thread with you aren't as bothered by the future because we've been following the discussion on the NJASAP board and reading up on the NJASAP plan. It's laid out and they take questions. Given your uncertainty it seems best for you to go directly to the source for answers. I recommend starting with the Board positions and their duty descriptions. You should find the info on the VP in charge of Industry Affairs quite interesting. http://njasap.com/library/bylaws.pdf

BTW, have you noticed that Bill Olsen resigned immediately from his position as EBoard President? He supports the NJASAP pilots and thinks the will of the pilot group should prevail. As the majority have already sent in their cards the direction they want to go seems clear. I don't see NJASAP as hasty; it is the next logical step for a group of professionals committed to superior representation for their members. NJW

 

[Mooneymite]

MM,

You make a valid point. We certainly don't want them sticking their heads into our local's business just any old time they feel like it. Would certainly slow things down for us, instead of helping.

HOWEVER, should they do absolutely nothing when ASKED for assistance by a group that sends them a great deal of money every month?

And again, I beg you to go back and read Bill O's numerous posts on the subject. He has told us several times that when he asked for their help, ON THE NATIONAL LEVEL, that in essence, they were nowhere to be found. You keep advocating that we need representation on the national level. Well, when we asked for help with it, it wasn't there. Like I said, don't take my word for it. Go back and read the information from the people who were directly involved. That's what I did.

When the FAA convened the FOARC to come up with the new 91K regs, NJA had reps there, including at least one individual from our own local. But where the heck was our representation from the IBT? What? Dealing with the FAA directly wasn't national enough for them?

Fact is, they have no clue about our side of the industry. And they simply refuse to learn. The plight of all labor is our plight too, up to a certain point. But there simply isn't any way they can effectively represent us on the national level if they don't even understand us. Heck, go and read it from our leaders. They've demonstrated how IBT doesn't really even understand the RLA!! That's pretty freaking significant! And not in a good way for us.

As for 60 years from now, you're right again. Who knows? But hey, it'll only be at the end of this contract when we can really determine if we did the right thing with this IBB. It'll only be at the end of the next president's term of office when we know if we elected the right person. It'll only be at the end of your career when you know if you invested your 401K properly. All we can do for now is take the information at hand and make the best decision possible. Our leaders have looked at this for a while now. The rank and file are getting much less time to evaluate things. But not everyone is a follower. You're not. And that's good. I try not to be, but I'm not as smart as many others, so prefer to look for the right questions asked by others and see what the answers are. Then evaluate and decide. From what I've seen, we need to get away from the IBT.

By the way, did you read any of the 'informational mailings' by Hoffa? What'd you think of him trying to take credit for the things our leaders, and WE THE PILOTS, accomplished without any help from them? Do you trust someone who would lie to the very people who are in the best position to know better? That not only makes them liars, but stupid to boot.

Maybe we will need a powerful representational voice in Washington in the future, but the IBT is on its way out. Something better will come along. Even if it's ourselves.

Realityman, thank you for your post.

I guess I have made my point that national representation is extremely important in the "big picture". Apparently you agree. I further agree that the IBT needs some significant changes if it is to fulfill its duties of representation.

Where I get confused is in the world of "He said/she said" between 1108 and IBT national. I read what Bill O. writes, I read what Hoffa writes and they do not jibe. As much as I trust and respect Olsen, I also know he is skilled at presenting "his-story" in a way favorable to his position. Hoffa is also "spinning the facts".

In most cases, the truth lies somewhere between the two advocates. I've had 40 years in aviation watching this stuff and I become more skeptical everyday. I've been lead astray by trusted leaders before who were doing their best, but they were just wrong. I should have asked more questions and demanded more answers.

You and I are in agreement in how we process our facts, but there is a difference in which facts we accept as the gospel. I am not discrediting what you say, but I'm not convinced the data you are using are "fact".

The good news is that I'm about done in this industry. The changes we are discussing will not affect me directly. I hope the crowd pushing for fragmentation is doing the right thing and it all works out. I really do. I only ask that we "look before we leap". There is far too much crowd following and thoughtless cheerleading to make me comfortable.

 

[realityman]

Realityman, thank you for your post.

I guess I have made my point that national representation is extremely important in the "big picture". Apparently you agree. I further agree that the IBT needs some significant changes if it is to fulfill its duties of representation.

Where I get confused is in the world of "He said/she said" between 1108 and IBT national. I read what Bill O. writes, I read what Hoffa writes and they do not jibe. As much as I trust and respect Olsen, I also know he is skilled at presenting "his-story" in a way favorable to his position. Hoffa is also "spinning the facts".

In most cases, the truth lies somewhere between the two advocates. I've had 40 years in aviation watching this stuff and I become more skeptical everyday. I've been lead astray by trusted leaders before who were doing their best, but they were just wrong. I should have asked more questions and demanded more answers.

You and I are in agreement in how we process our facts, but there is a difference in which facts we accept as the gospel. I am not discrediting what you say, but I'm not convinced the data you are using are "fact".

The good news is that I'm about done in this industry. The changes we are discussing will not affect me directly. I hope the crowd pushing for fragmentation is doing the right thing and it all works out. I really do. I only ask that we "look before we leap". There is far too much crowd following and thoughtless cheerleading to make me comfortable.

LOL!! At least we're on the same page.

But what I meant by Hoffa's 'interpretation' of things in his mailings is that he, and any of his national cronies, were NOT involved with our 2005 contract, and absolutely were NOT involved with the IBB. I don't have to take our elected leaders' word for it. I was there!! Not sure how long you've been with the company, but if you've been here for more than three years surely even you can see that Hoffa's letter was full of bald-faced lies.

I happen to be friends with the top guy on the strike committee. You know, the ones who set up the picketing, banners, advertising, and so forth, and I can assure you that even when asked, we received NO help from IBT.

I certainly can't verify every last word that comes out of Bill's mouth about what went on at the national level, which is where he's spent much of his focus, but based on the things I can directly verify, I'd have to say that Hoffa is a flat out liar. And stupid. Like I said before, who tries to lie to the people who are in the best position to know better?

If you weren't here for the contract in 2005, let me assure you, the info in the mailing from Hoffa is flat out FALSE!

Anyway, this train has too much momentum to stop now. No matter what happens, it's either going to be an interesting journey to watch, or a really spectacular train wreck to watch. At least it isn't boring!!!:beer:

 

[B19 Flyer]

MM, the NJ pilots don't have the luxury of waiting to make up their minds; the time for action is now--at the beginning of a long contract in an era of cooperation with the Company --timing doesn't get any better than this. I agree with everything Realityman has posted. You say you're worried about the "game plan" for labor; then it should concern you that the IBT doesn't even get on the field when frac issues come up. All the potential things you think they could do for us can't stack up against the fact that they don't have the expertise, or even the motivation, to get involved. NJ pilots have talked to Teamster officials who don't even know who NJA is or that the pilots are in the IBT. That could be excused possibly, but what about the fact that they surveyed members and didn't have "pilot" as a possible labor group for the NJ pilot who got called?! :erm: That sums up their lack of interest quite well I think.

The decision is far from hasty. Pilots proposed it when we were leaving 284 and setting up 1108, but the timing wasn't right then. Obviously, the NJASAP leaders considered it carefully before sinking time and money into the decertification campaign. They read the pilot group correctly going by the way the cards poured in.

You ask good questions, MM, but I'm not sure they're even necessary. If you read the NJASAP website a lot of them would be answered and, as RM, points out, those that aren't can be voiced directly to the NJASAP Directors. As a leadership group they are visionary thinkers with ambition and concern for the industry. They've made themselves available for questions and can discuss their personal experiences in trying to get help from the Teamsters. A number of them (AV, ML, JB..off the top of my head) have posted on the subject in response to questions similar to yours. It seems that those of us posting on the thread with you aren't as bothered by the future because we've been following the discussion on the NJASAP board and reading up on the NJASAP plan. It's laid out and they take questions. Given your uncertainty it seems best for you to go directly to the source for answers. I recommend starting with the Board positions and their duty descriptions. You should find the info on the VP in charge of Industry Affairs quite interesting. http://njasap.com/library/bylaws.pdf

BTW, have you noticed that Bill Olsen resigned immediately from his position as EBoard President? He supports the NJASAP pilots and thinks the will of the pilot group should prevail. As the majority have already sent in their cards the direction they want to go seems clear. I don't see NJASAP as hasty; it is the next logical step for a group of professionals committed to superior representation for their members. NJW

Pilot's wife with an agenda she's entitled to. Too bad she doesn't personally work in the industry or draw a paycheck from NJ.

The other posts around it appear credible.

Either way, the internal bickering supports my opinion about unions. The turmoil never ends.

Hey, Y'all, watch this! (especially the FLOPS pilots.)

 

[Mooneymite]

LOL!! At least we're on the same page.
....
Anyway, this train has too much momentum to stop now. No matter what happens, it's either going to be an interesting journey to watch, or a really spectacular train wreck to watch. At least it isn't boring!!!:beer:

I'll drink to that. Thank you for letting me have my say.

Can we let this thread die now before the shrill voices drag it down again?

 

[Diesel]

Can we let this thread die now before the shrill voices drag it down again?

Awww common I've heard NJW's voice and it isn't that bad.

 

[netjetwife]

Well thanks, Diesel.... You know, my debate points are pretty good , too.

MM, dragging down a thread isn't my style. I am known for my efforts to pull up morale and I am confident that I hold the moral high ground.

 

[Mooneymite]

Well thanks, Diesel.... You know, my debate points are pretty good , too.

MM, dragging down a thread isn't my style. I am known for my efforts to pull up morale and I am confident that I hold the moral high ground.

Your posts speak for themselves.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Well thanks, Diesel.... You know, my debate points are pretty good , too.

MM, dragging down a thread isn't my style. I am known for my efforts to pull up morale and I am confident that I hold the moral high ground.

Actually, you don't hold the moral high ground. I'm not the only one that is of the opinion that you are long winded and don't understand the reality of the job at hand. Everytime somebody disagrees with you , it's name calling and more disrespect. Go get yourself a flight certificate and put a couple of flight legs on instead of those stupid boots. Until then, you are still only a pilot's wife.

Your continued and unforgivable disrespect to non-pilot fractional employees is disgusting as it gets. Post after post, you say how you'll support the pilots, but the rest of the company and employee base just gets tossed aside for your own interests.

No, you don't hold the moral high ground.

And dragging a thread down is exactly what you do best.