Look before you leap, NJASAP!

[AeroBoy]

Since B19's custom user name is "nobody speaks for me," then he apparently doesn't even speak for himself. So it's perfectly OK to ignore him, then. I'm giving you my permission.

 

[SCT]

"...while giving everyone a headache with that monotous drum beat over and over, same thing all day..."- NJW

NutjetWife, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black!!
I don't agree w/ B19 at all (nor do I have a dog in this fight) but at least B19 actually WORKS in the aviation industry versus you, mam.

SCT

 

[netjetwife]

Not remotely the same SCT. I'm here to discuss relevant, current events with my online frac friends. For example, the issue of the NJ pilots leaving Teamsters is a brand new topic which will directly impact the NJ pilots---and their family members. Many pilots know that my family is very involved in the independence movement. (Thanks to all those mailing in cards and donations.)

As the wife of a NJ pilot, that worked on both the 2005 and 2007 contracts, I have insight and encouragement to offer to the Options pilots as we talk about their negotiations and the treatment they receive from management. The pilots with a family understand that their frac career affects their family in a significant way, especially when they're overworked and underpaid. They know that I understand what they're going thru. Yes, you've heard me say some of the same kinds of things before; I posted very similar comments and encouragement to the NJ pilots during their contract dispute. The Ops pilots are likewise deserving of support and admiration for the stand they're taking.

Many of the board members know my husband and/or me and they support my right to post here. The positive feedback I receive (from NJ pilots and others) far outnumbers the negative so I'll continue to enjoy the camaraderie of the online frac community. SCT, does your family's paycheck come from a frac company like my family's does? I've forgotten who you fly for, but I do recall that you showed a tendancy to discriminate in the past. I invited you then to put me on your ignore list and that suggestion, sir, still stands. NJW

 

[fischman]

Sct,

"...while giving everyone a headache with that monotous drum beat over and over, same thing all day..."- NJW

NutjetWife, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black!!
I don't agree w/ B19 at all (nor do I have a dog in this fight) but at least B19 actually WORKS in the aviation industry versus you, mam.

SCT

NJW has done more for the Fractional Pilot than 95% of us out here. She is better informed that 99% of us.

Trust me, she has earned your respect. I suggest you apologize.

 

[stingray]

B19

NetJetwife is simply a spouse that cares about this pilot group. She at least speaks up in support of this pilot group, and does what she can to make it better.

What do you do besides sit there and complain. You sound like a definte National Teamsters Cronie trying to push their crap koolaid. or you just don't care

I have seen her post many times on this site always in support of bettering our pilot group.

Do you realize 99.9% of what we "The NetJets Pilot Group" have is purely because of our pilots who have voluntered to take positions in our union and the staff at our local 1108 level, and the many other volunteers.

National has done nothing except suck money from our pilot group, and try to get us to settle for crap, sounds familiar like our previous local. National should have learned from what we will do with this type of action or in-action "They refuse to learn from the past" there is a name for that.

Now they realize we are leaving, they screwed the pooch, and we are saying goodbuy to them, and the millions we have sent them will be no more, and there is not a dam thing they can do about it. That is their only thought.

We already have well past the amount of cards required to have a vote, over 100 cards a day are still coming in. Do the math

 

[Fozzy]

but at least B19 actually WORKS in the aviation industry versus you, mam.
SCT

If you don't think a spouse of a pilot does not work in the aviation industry, you are seriously out of touch. Just because the check comes in their spouse's name does not mean they don't sacrifice just as much. Same goes for the kids.

If I had to venture a guess, you have yet to get married. Good luck with that.

 

[SCT]

You crack me up NJW. You rant and rave every day about your causes but has soon has someone w/ a different opinion (and not just B19, I've seen you do it over and over thru the yrs) posts you go ballistic. Also, I don't "discriminate" (i'm not pro or anti unions)
I just like pointing out the idiot statements that you like to make about the aviation industry. My favorite was your advice on accepting tips from pax...it was a classic.

Well, once again I don't agree w/ anything B19 has posted but at least he works in the industry and the real world. I have lots of friends in the frac world and I wish them the best. I really don't care if they work for the carpenter's union.....if that is what they decide to do.

Fozzy, I respect your opinion but you are wrong. You do not see me on "medical" websites posting on behalf of my spouse's career.

 

[B19 Flyer]

NetJetwife is simply a spouse that cares about this pilot group. She at least speaks up in support of this pilot group, and does what she can to make it better.

She is entitled to her opinion and can say anything she wants, no matter how disrespectful it is to aviation professionals in the fractional as well as other aviation entities by her statements as to the method of which they have invested in their careers.

I am entitled to my opinion. I don't like unions from personal experience and have never seen a union do anything good for a company as a whole. Profitability is not the only measure of how a company is affected. QOL extends beyond the pilot group. A CBA may benefit the pilot group, but it is always at the expense of other employees, shareholders and patrons.

She is nothing more than a pilot's wife. She hasn't invested in a career in aviation. She hasn't paid her dues, doesn't personally draw a paycheck and can only ride on the coat-tails of he husband.

She writes pages to discredit my opinion of unions, yet when I point out facts and attitudes she has that are detrimental to the industry, she calls me names and says that I twist words. Not true.

She is only a pilots wife, nothing more.

 

[B19 Flyer]

NJW has done more for the Fractional Pilot than 95% of us out here. She is better informed that 99% of us.

What has she done?

Has she traveled to various parts of the world and been an active participant on rulemaking committees that support fractional programs with the FAA and ICAO?

Has she been an active participant on developing fractional safety programs such as ASAP?

What could she have possibly done for the fractional industry outside of support 1108?

She's only a pilot's wife and she is free to speak her mind, but anything she says needs to be weighed with the fact that she's only a pilot's wife.

 

[netjetwife]

Fisch, Foz, and ST, I appreciate your support and enjoy posting with you guys. When I want to talk about the latest happenings, I don't have to explain all the background to y'all like I do to my friends and neighbors. As usual, y'all made good points....

SCT, it sounds as though you personally have no direct connection to the frac industry, is that right? To clarify, your family's income isn't derived from the frac industry like my family's is? You're family doesn't volunteer for the Union, as mine does?

Apparently your discrimination is so ingrained it doesn't register. Fisch, Foz and Sting all saw it right away. SCT, if your spouse's co-workers met online to discuss common issues like working conditions, schedules, and pay, you would certainly be qualified to discuss the situation as one directly affected. If your family made huge sacrifices for the greater good I bet you'd even be welcomed with open arms.

Behind complaints there is usually a pet peeve and/or hidden agenda. So your's is tips, huh? Then you'll be interested to know that my husband and the other pilot both got a $150 tip yesterday from a family that voluntarily chose to express their appreciation. The pilots didn't rudely reject it, on the contrary, my husband enjoyed the recognition of his extra efforts to make the busy day go smoothly for his pax.

As a reminder, experts in the service industry state that pilots aren't tipped when they only fly the plane; however, those who do additional duties to personally assist the passengers have earned special recognition (often expressed w/money) for going above and beyond their flying tasks. According to the experts (not to mention common courtesy) tipped pilots should smile and say thank you. They warn that refusing a gracious gesture would be insulting and possibly embarrassing to those who choose to express extra appreciation with their compliments.

To those of you thinking here we go again, I say.... He started it!

 

[Hawker dude]

She is nothing more than a pilot's wife. She hasn't invested in a career in aviation. She hasn't paid her dues, doesn't personally draw a paycheck and can only ride on the coat-tails of he husband.


WOW. B19,

why can't you just go away??

Nobody at Netjets agrees with you. you suck, you are a dork.

just go away. if you are so happy in your current job stay there and shut up.

we as pilots all pay our dues and so does our family. to say our wives and kids don't have a say is wrong.


Once again B19 you suck and nobody likes you, and once again go F#()yourse#f

 

[Grizz]

Why do you guys keep wrestling with this pig? It accomplishes absolutely nothing and it amuses the pig.

Just put B19 on your ignore list and be done with it. He'll eventually go away like every other half-baked lunatic that tries to make a "name" for himself on Flightinfo. He offers nothing of value and you waste your time even reading his posts.

 

[realityman]

Grizz, I've already tried handing out that advice. But people keep responding.

He isn't relevant, has absolutely ZERO knowledge of Netjets, our union, what's actually going on at either our company or our union, and hasn't convinced one single person on these boards that he's right.

I'm almost 100% sure he's just stirring the pot because he can. Kind of reminds me of another person on the NJA 1108 boards (now all but abandoned) who did the same thing and eventually was banned.

Folks, put him on your ignore list or just skip over his posts! It's easy!!

 

[B19 Flyer]

Grizz, I've already tried handing out that advice. But people keep responding.

He isn't relevant, has absolutely ZERO knowledge of Netjets, our union, what's actually going on at either our company or our union, and hasn't convinced one single person on these boards that he's right.

I'm almost 100% sure he's just stirring the pot because he can. Kind of reminds me of another person on the NJA 1108 boards (now all but abandoned) who did the same thing and eventually was banned.

Folks, put him on your ignore list or just skip over his posts! It's easy!!

You have your opinion, I don't agree with it. The silent majority doesn't agree with you either, and the respect that I recieve via PMs proves that every day. It's that silent majority that feeds my posts as I will write what they think.

I've encouraged those that don't want to read my posts to stick their head in the sand and ignore my posts. I don't want them to read my posts anyway. But I will continue to rebut classic union rhetoric. If they want to ignore my opinion by using "ignore", it's easier for me.

Your sense of reality is single sided, has no vision and is detrimental to the fractional industry. It's all about the money.

You don't care about the industry, all you care about is the wages, benefits and quality of life produced by 1108 for the pilots. Union turmoil at it's best.

You don't care about the financial health of all fractionals, the non-pilot employees or the owners that have investments in the aircraft you fly.

I happen to care about the big picture, the industry that I had a part of during the regulatory process and the frac employees that I've spent a lot of time with over the years. 1108 had raised the bar, but at what cost? Industry leading union contracts have rarely succeeded. Usually the success is short term, maybe a couple of years before the bow wave catches up. The long term effects remain to be seen.

You support unions and have a right to speak.

I don't support unions and have a right to speak also.

You want to turn this thread into something about me, but it's actually about NJASAP.

I still think it's ludicrous and I'm enjoying the rhetoric surrounding it. Union turmoil at it's best.

 

[CA1900]

You have your opinion, I don't agree with it. The silent majority doesn't agree with you either, and the respect that I recieve via PMs proves that every day.

You're telling me you have more people PM'ing you in agreement, than posting here in disagreement? Riiiight...

Your sense of reality is single sided, has no vision and is detrimental to the fractional industry. It's all about the money.

As is the entire fractional industry. You think Mr. Santulli got into this business out of some noble sense of purpose? No, he got into this business because he saw an opportunity to make money.

You don't care about the financial health of all fractionals...

Yes, that's exactly why we agreed to more flexible schedules to ensure better utilization of our aircraft and to reduce the amount of charter supplement we have to use. That makes our owners happy because they prefer to be on our planes, and it saves us money to improve the financial health of NetJets.

We traded short-term schedule flexibility to help the long-term stability of the company for all of its employees. One sell-off would pay for my pay raise many times over, so this is one of the many situations where both sides win because of our new contract.

 

[brokeflyer]

Why do you guys keep wrestling with this pig? It accomplishes absolutely nothing and it amuses the pig.

Just put B19 on your ignore list and be done with it. He'll eventually go away like every other half-baked lunatic that tries to make a "name" for himself on Flightinfo. He offers nothing of value and you waste your time even reading his posts.

lol he sounds a lot like that crying little girl from SEA we all know...lol

 

[netjetwife]

Good post, CA1900! Frac pilots deal with reality. At NJA it has been proven that mutual respect, fairness, and teamwork will take a company and its workers to the top. Frac pilots at other companies are fully aware that an industry standard has been set and the ripples are starting to be felt across the industry, especially at CS. Those non-union pilots are thankful for the efforts of the NJ pilots. NJ pilots introduced work rules that make the industry safer and the other fracs are starting to follow their lead. That is the reality of what happens when talented professionals band together and actively work on making improvements that benefit all involved.

The Options pilots are frustrated over the reality of watching their company fall further behind because MS hasn't broken the code on how to motivate workers and treat them with respect. Ops pilots deal with the reality of having to make ends meet on sub-par wages paid to them for performing essentially the same job as their better paid industry peers.

The reality is that since the formation of StrongUnion (now NJASAP) the frac industry has become safer and more productive. NJA welcomes the input of their pilots and the joint committees are working on exciting new projects and turning out good fair solutions that benefit the entire company. NJW

Frac pilots live and post reality. Fudspinners warp it to fit their own agenda.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Good post, CA1900! Frac pilots deal with reality. At NJA it has been proven that mutual respect, fairness, and teamwork will take a company and its workers to the top. Frac pilots at other companies are fully aware that an industry standard has been set and the ripples are starting to be felt across the industry, especially at CS. Those non-union pilots are thankful for the efforts of the NJ pilots. NJ pilots introduced work rules that make the industry safer and the other fracs are starting to follow their lead. That is the reality of what happens when talented professionals band together and actively work on making improvements that benefit all involved.

The Options pilots are frustrated over the reality of watching their company fall further behind because MS hasn't broken the code on how to motivate workers and treat them with respect. Ops pilots deal with the reality of having to make ends meet on sub-par wages paid to them for performing essentially the same job as their better paid industry peers.

The reality is that since the formation of StrongUnion (now NJASAP) the frac industry has become safer and more productive. NJA welcomes the input of their pilots and the joint committees are working on exciting new projects and turning out good fair solutions that benefit the entire company. NJW

Frac pilots live and post reality. Fudspinners warp it to fit their own agenda.

Your complete ignorance of the industry and basic business is astounding. It's easy to understand why you are to out of touch with reality. You are a pilot's wife with nothing better to do.

 

[VVJM265]

NJW,

WAVE OFF! WAVE OFF! WAVE OFF!




Don't respond, this thread has gone on too long as it is.

R,
265

 

[Helmsalee]

265, you got that right!!!

 

[B19 Flyer]

NJW,

WAVE OFF! WAVE OFF! WAVE OFF!




Don't respond, this thread has gone on too long as it is.

R,
265

Her husband is former Air Force, she has no idea what you mean. But she'll make something up like she always does because she's an expert and all, ya know?

As long as she wants to attack me, call me names and speak on behalf of other groups she has no part of (FLOPS) and take credit for work she has never personally done, I think there is a need to point out the facts. The only thing I can do is just place the reminder, that she is only a pilot's wife who is entitled to her opinion.
She only supports pilot unions, not the frac industry or any other facet of aviation because she doesn't understand it.

 

[brokeflyer]

Her husband is former Air Force, she has no idea what you mean. But she'll make something up like she always does because she's an expert and all, ya know?

As long as she wants to attack me, call me names and speak on behalf of other groups she has no part of (FLOPS) and take credit for work she has never personally done, I think there is a need to point out the facts. The only thing I can do is just place the reminder, that she is only a pilot's wife who is entitled to her opinion.
She only supports pilot unions, not the frac industry or any other facet of aviation because she doesn't understand it.

sniffle sniffle.....sorry im all out of tissues for you....lol

pathetic...lol

 

[B19 Flyer]

sniffle sniffle.....sorry im all out of tissues for you....lol

pathetic...lol

I would expect you to be out of tissues.

Nobody cries like a union pilot. :crying:

 

[Ultra Grump]

Back on topic - where the hell is Mooneymite? I'm still waiting for the answers to my questions.

 

[Mooneymite]

Back on topic - where the hell is Mooneymite? I'm still waiting for the answers to my questions.

I've been watching the thread. It seems to have gotten hijacked by certain shrill voices.

I posed a question about the wisdom of further fragmenting the power of labor and the thread turned into a platform for all sorts of peeves about organized labor. That wasn't the intent of my original post (does anyone even remember the original post?!)

There have been some thoughtful posts, but there's been a lot of static, too. I'd be interested in hearing how NJASAP plans on influencing labor legislation and court appointees. Organized labor has effected changes over the years that we benefit from today. How will we keep from being over-run if organized labor is further fragmented?

I'm interested in hearing what people think. I certainly don't have the answer...just questions. I've enjoyed the thoughtful posts on this thread. I think we need to slow down and understand the depth of what NetJets' labor leaders are proposing. They aren't necessarily doing the wrong thing; I just hate to see a mad rush to do what may be the wrong thing with 40 years of retrospect.

MM

 

[IDEtoNJA]

I've been watching the thread. It seems to have gotten hijacked by certain shrill voices.

I posed a question about the wisdom of further fragmenting the power of labor and the thread turned into a platform for all sorts of peeves about organized labor. That wasn't the intent of my original post (does anyone even remember the original post?!)

There have been some thoughtful posts, but there's been a lot of static, too. I'd be interested in hearing how NJASAP plans on influencing labor legislation and court appointees. Organized labor has effected changes over the years that we benefit from today. How will we keep from being over-run if organized labor is further fragmented?

I'm interested in hearing what people think. I certainly don't have the answer...just questions. I've enjoyed the thoughtful posts on this thread. I think we need to slow down and understand the depth of what NetJets' labor leaders are proposing. They aren't necessarily doing the wrong thing; I just hate to see a mad rush to do what may be the wrong thing with 40 years of retrospect.

MM

MM,

What did the disaffiliation of the IBT from the AFL-CIO achieve? Would it be of greater benefit to re-affiliate ourselves we the AFL-CIO; and by extension, with ITUC? Would it be of greater benefit to join forces within a "loose" affiliation amid different pilot groups in the US and abroad?

Just as yourself, I have more question then answers.

IDEtoNJA

 

[Mooneymite]

MM,

What did the disaffiliation of the IBT from the AFL-CIO achieve? Would it be of greater benefit to re-affiliate ourselves we the AFL-CIO; and by extension, with ITUC? Would it be of greater benefit to join forces within a "loose" affiliation amid different pilot groups in the US and abroad?

Just as yourself, I have more question then answers.

IDEtoNJA

Interesting. I'm glad you're asking those questions. They need answers...or at least we need to try to answer them.

I see this as kind of a "confederation vs centralization" type question. Is the labor movement morphing into a confederation and away from strong central control, or is it just "de-constructing"?

Which will be more effective in combating big business? Who will set the "game plan" for labor, or will we all pursue our own agendas independently?

I'd like to know if there even IS a game plan for the survival of labor as we know it.

MM

 

[IDEtoNJA]

Interesting. I'm glad you're asking those questions. They need answers...or at least we need to try to answer them.

I see this as kind of a "confederation vs centralization" type question. Is the labor movement morphing into a confederation and away from strong central control, or is it just "de-constructing"?

Which will be more effective in combating big business? Who will set the "game plan" for labor, or will we all pursue our own agendas independently?

I'd like to know if there even IS a game plan for the survival of labor as we know it.

MM

MM,

I think that organized labor as we have known it has been "de-constructing" for a long time!

IDEtoNJA

 

[realityman]

MM,

I don't believe there was a rush into this. Our leaders have been hinting for quite a while now that this was coming. Yes, it's happening now and the rank and file has much less time to think through it than our leaders did, but they are very receptive to questions and I don't think any of them would shy away from giving you the answers you seek.

Which of course makes me wonder why you're posting these concerns on FI. Our own message boards, as well as contact info for ALL our leaders, is on the union boards.

But back on point. I had some questions myself, but they've been answered. And like I said, this has been thought through for quite a while by our leaders. I don't think they're taking rash or hasty action.

There is a certain commonality to all labor in this country. That can't be argued. But there are enough differences between the different working groups that I don't believe any one group can represent them all. Heck, ALPA can't seem to represent the interests of both the mainline and regional pilots who are members. How are IBT supposed to support our needs vs., say, the airlines that they represent. As has been mentioned before, the airlines and their members are probably best served by supporting user fees, while the fractionals, charters, and pure 91 operators will be taking the opposite stance. How would IBT reconcile these differences in representation?

Just read our own message boards and the posts from our leaders and you'll see many many times where we've asked the IBT for assistance and it simply was never given, and no explanation forthcoming as to why they wouldn't help. Bill Olsen himself has said the IBT really doesn't even understand our part of the industry, and doesn't seem to have any desire to educate themselves about it. While pilots, truckers, mechanics, and such have many labor needs in common, there are simply too many differences in other areas of our needs for the IBT to be able to effectively represent us all.

True, it might be nice to have their political connections (do they honestly have any these days that are effective?), but I truly believe they need to start by showing they're receptive to our immediate local needs, before they can stand up for us on a national scale. So far, they've failed miserably on the micro scale and I personally have no confidence in them on the macro scale.

 

[Mooneymite]

MM,

True, it might be nice to have their political connections (do they honestly have any these days that are effective?), but I truly believe they need to start by showing they're receptive to our immediate local needs, before they can stand up for us on a national scale. So far, they've failed miserably on the micro scale and I personally have no confidence in them on the macro scale.

Realityman, your complaint is one I see time and time again. I think it is misplaced. I don't think the national headquarters has any mandate to involve itself with local issues. There are far bigger issues for "national" to deal with. Lobbying, influencing legislation, and matters of public policy are the business of national headquarters.

We do not want the national headquarters either fighting our battles, or sticking its nose into our business. We need a national organization to keep this country safe for labor, and to make it a place where a local union will have laws and judges which will create an environment where the locals can prevail.

It is up to US, to do our part on the local level.

The more that labor fragments, the less favorable the political environment will become and the less favorable the outcome of the local battles.

It is a vicious circle where the less effective the national unions, the more defection there is and the more defection there is, the less effective the national.

Is NJASAP part of the problem, or part of the solution? I'll tell you in about 60 years.