AA recalls starting to increase

[XTW]

Moreover, furloughed former TWA pilots are coming off the street straight to the left seat of an AA Super 80. This is from a 17 year AA native FO that is still throwing gear.

I’m not trying to drudge up another AA-TWA flight, but just setting the facts straight.

AA767AV8TOR

I can assure you that this is not completely true. There was one "furlough instead" that did come back straight to the left seat. She took a furlough directly and voluntarily from the left seat, out of furlough seniority. Every other former TWA furloughee has come back as an FO.



XTW

 

[AAbyDefault]

Big Slick,

I’m not quite sure where you are getting your information, but the TWA pilots were not stapled at the bottom of our list. I routinely fly DFW to HNL, our most senior trip, with former TWA Captains.

Moreover, furloughed former TWA pilots are coming off the street straight to the left seat of an AA Super 80. This is from a 17 year AA native FO that is still throwing gear.

I’m not trying to drudge up another AA-TWA flight, but just setting the facts straight.

AA767AV8TOR

Well, not all true......the ABC version is mid 1989 hires and below were stapled. Not all TWA pilots are going to the left seat. Captains that were furloughed have re-instatement rights to the left seat in STL only. If they leave STL, then they exercise their system seniority which is right seat somewhere else.

Hope this clarifies all the misleading info.

 

[CitationLover]

Big Slick,

I’m not quite sure where you are getting your information, but the TWA pilots were not stapled at the bottom of our list. I routinely fly DFW to HNL, our most senior trip, with former TWA Captains.

Moreover, furloughed former TWA pilots are coming off the street straight to the left seat of an AA Super 80. This is from a 17 year AA native FO that is still throwing gear.

I’m not trying to drudge up another AA-TWA flight, but just setting the facts straight.

AA767AV8TOR

your facts are wrong. are you confusing recall rights with actual recall positions?

no twa'ers are coming off the street to the left seat. in fact, one recently told me a check airman told him before a session, "That Supplement CC has really worked out for you."

To which his bewildered sim partner (a BOS based 767 FO upgrading on the 80 - a 90 hire) defended with, "Yeah, 4 1/2 years on the street worked out real well for him."

Some people still have blinders on in the Luftwaffe.

 

[pkober]

Big Slick,

I’m not quite sure where you are getting your information, but the TWA pilots were not stapled at the bottom of our list. I routinely fly DFW to HNL, our most senior trip, with former TWA Captains.

Moreover, furloughed former TWA pilots are coming off the street straight to the left seat of an AA Super 80. This is from a 17 year AA native FO that is still throwing gear.

I’m not trying to drudge up another AA-TWA flight, but just setting the facts straight.

AA767AV8TOR

Then how did I end up stapled below the AA pilots? This is from a 12 year TWA pilot who has been furloughed for 5 years yesterday. Luckily throwing gear at another airline, unfortunately there are still allot of "non-stapled" TWA/AA guys still waiting to get called back.

 

[Prog 2/2]

I dunno.

Something like a hundred years and a billion keystrokes might put a dent in it, though.

Some other items that the garden variety AA pilot absolutely, positively knows to be true about theTWA acquisition--

TWA was bankrupt, on the edge of liquidating, and all TWA employees were just about on the street. Never mind that the bankruptcy filing was a condition of the asset purchase, and that TWA had more cash in the bank at the time of acquisition than they had the previous year, and that the acquisition was the brainchild of our CEO, who was trying to keep his job.

AMR assumed billions in debt when they acquired TWA. Never mind that the bankruptcy process allowed AMR to shed the Karabu agreement, all subordinated debt, and many,many individual liabilities. Equipment lease rates were able to be renegotiated, Worldspan was put up for sale, and AA was able to replace some of their least efficient fleets with newer jets.

Had they not assumed that debt, they would have never lost a dime, never furloughed, and every native FO would now be a captain. Don't bother considering the effect of those two big buildings in NYC falling down and the subsequent economic toilet ride, it's clearly all TWA's fault.

And of course, AA got rid of all the TWA airplanes, and was stuck with the all pilots. Never mind that there are roughly 80 TWA airplanes still flying AMR colors, with only around 400 TWA pilots on the property. And don't ever, ever ask yourself, if you are a native in the bottom third of the seniority list, whether you would have been able to keep working post 9/11 had TWA not been acquired.

And finally, the catch all's. TWA airplanes were all junk, AA had to spend zillions just to get them up to "AA standards", they were all old, clapped out, and hadn't had any mtc done to them in years, since TWA was broke. Yet those very airplanes, most newer that AA's, were the ones that provided just enough cushion for the furloughs to barely touch the native ranks.

I'd say that AMR got value for their money.

And if they didn't, the junior AA pilot sure did.

(This was not posted to reopen the AA/TWA wound. I simply get sick of listening to the half-truths, misconceptions, and outright falsehoods that many continue to spout, and the overarching belief that all the problems at AA are directly the result of the TWA acquisition, that the acquisition directly harmed every AA native, and that the AA pilot group has made tremendous sacrifices because of it.)

 

[XTW]

Prog 2/2,

Stop it! Stop it right now! This is FI and there is no room for level-headed or fact based posts! I will report you to the Rule 32 police, whoever that is.:nuts:

XTW

 

[FreightGod]

I'd say that AMR got value for their money.

And if they didn't, the junior AA pilot sure did.

Hmm, guess I was too junior to get value for my money?

Got 4 years on the street instead.
In my recall class last fall we had several TWA dudes who got MD-80 capts slots, but witheld for 6 months as F/Os on the B-767.

Of course TWA would have been around after 9/11 just like the "new" Midway and the pilots would have been much better off if AA had not gotten involved.

The truth comes in many flavors for sure.

 

[XTW]

In my recall class last fall we had several TWA dudes who got MD-80 capts slots, but witheld for 6 months as F/Os on the B-767.

I am going to call BS on this one. There has only been one recallee that has gotten a Captain bid upon recall. That person was a FIS who returned in the first recall class in January 2007. I was recalled and deferred last summer, and I cannot hold Captain even under CC at this time.

What more likely occurred is that they got MD80 slots, but used a reinstatement right to get the 767 for QOL issues. What recall class were you in?


XTW

 

[FreightGod]

What recall class were you in?

Oct 3rd, 2007.

I am going to call BS on this one.

No need to use the BS card. Plenty of ex-TWA guys in my class, check the roster on AA pilots.

Some of them had Capt. re-instatement rights on the -80..

Lowest Capt seniority right now is # 8880.

Perhaps some of the guys in my class had previously deferred....Lots of gray hair among them.

3 or 4 of them came from Focus...Good timing.

 

[Prog 2/2]

Hmm, guess I was too junior to get value for my money?

Got 4 years on the street instead.
In my recall class last fall we had several TWA dudes who got MD-80 capts slots, but witheld for 6 months as F/Os on the B-767.

Of course TWA would have been around after 9/11 just like the "new" Midway and the pilots would have been much better off if AA had not gotten involved.

The truth comes in many flavors for sure.

You got 4 years on the street because of two things, both completely unrelated to TWA.

The first was 9/11, and the second was because you were on the bottom of the seniority list.

How hard is it for you to accept that what happened to you would have happened with/without the acquisition of TWA?

UAL, DAL, and anybody else you care to name, also furloughed junior pilots post 9/11, and they had acquired no one.

Why do you believe that anything different would have taken place at AA?

My point is that the furloughs at AA, post 9/11, would have gone much deeper into native ranks than they did had it not been for the TWA furlough fodder at the bottom of the list and the additional TWA aircraft.

That to me is a value for the junior AA pilot.

What happened is almost exactly the opposite of what almost every hardcore native proclaims is a truism when it comes to AA and mergers; i.e., AA dumps the airplanes and keeps the pilots.

In this instance, AA kept airplanes and dumped almost 3000 pilots, some natives among them, to be sure, but far fewer natives were furloughed than would have been the case w/o TWA.

It matters not if TWA would, or would not, have survived 9/11. I'm not arguing that point, because in the context of this discussion, it's completely moot. That's just something that gets trotted out when you run out of facts to argue, and it is completely irrelevant.

Congratulations on your recall, and best of luck on the line.:beer:

 

[XTW]

Oct 3rd, 2007.



No need to use the BS card. Plenty of ex-TWA guys in my class, check the roster on AA pilots.

Some of them had Capt. re-instatement rights on the -80..

Lowest Capt seniority right now is # 8880.

Perhaps some of the guys in my class had previously deferred....Lots of gray hair among them.

3 or 4 of them came from Focus...Good timing.

The senior ex-TWA guy in the October 3 class was a previous deferral, but only from August. He is now #9509. The #8880 guy was in the first recall class back in January 2007. The gray hairs are probably because the ex-TWA guys in your class were hired in late 1988/early 1989. All of them have Captain reinstatement rights because they had flown Captain for about 3 years prior to being furloughed.


XTW

 

[pkober]

Remember we were "Aquired not hired".

TWA may not survived post 9-11, no one knows for sure. Just like AA may not survive long term. UAL has appeared on deaths door. NWA and DAL have filed bankruptcy. No one in this industry has a crystal ball. If you say you do then your full of shi+.

 

[Uniform Shop]

Remember that TWA went out of business before AA bought them, so it wasn’t really a merger in the normal sense.

If TWA went of business then I guess DAL, NWA, USAir and UAL did too. There is a big difference between entering bankruptcy and going out of business.

 

[highflying]

can anyone ever ask AA question without it becoming an AA TWA argument?

 

[CitationLover]

Two great airlines.....
one great future.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YayAONi07s0

 

[XTW]

can anyone ever ask AA question without it becoming an AA TWA argument?

I have not argued at all. I am stating facts with no emotion at all.


XTW

 

[G4G5]

your facts are wrong. are you confusing recall rights with actual recall positions?

no twa'ers are coming off the street to the left seat. in fact, one recently told me a check airman told him before a session, "That Supplement CC has really worked out for you."

To which his bewildered sim partner (a BOS based 767 FO upgrading on the 80 - a 90 hire) defended with, "Yeah, 4 1/2 years on the street worked out real well for him."

Some people still have blinders on in the Luftwaffe.

This is wrong.

The fact is, as mentioned above that one former TWA pilot did come back from furlough and directly into the left seat of an MD80 in STL. This can be verified by anyone with access to the APA web site. It is listed under the Benefits/Sevices, then the Furlough section, then Recall Stats.

 

[G4G5]

If TWA went of business then I guess DAL, NWA, USAir and UAL did too. There is a big difference between entering bankruptcy and going out of business.

You need to get your history straight. What were Bill Compton's comments? I don't recall any of the CEO's from the airlines you mentioned giving up and telling the employees that their "were no white knights'.

FYI another FACT is that in 1999 all of the airlines that you mentioned were profitable and in 1999 (a great year for airline profits) TWA was the ONLY major airline that was not profitable.

Ican killed TWA, not AA. It's sad but true

9/11 caused the BK's that you mentioned.



TWA CEO Bill Compton's Senate Testimony for those who want the truth:
http://judiciary.senate.gov/oldsite/te020701wc.htm

"We can no longer afford to operate, let alone sustain these advances. TWA's Many Successes Have Not Been Enough."

Finally, this winter we ran out of time. By January 10, 2001, TWA had cash on hand of only $20 million and needed more than that amount just to make it through the next day. With our cash reserves nearly depleted and a major financial commitment to lenders coming due, our backs were squarely against the wall. "

"Only American Airlines saw fit this winter to come forward with a proposal that was not merely an offer to cherry-pick a prized asset here or there."

 

[FreightGod]

No one in this industry has a crystal ball. If you say you do then your full of shi+.

Not sure anybody has claimed a crystal ball except those who said TWA would/could have made it on their own after 9/11 without AA..If so you are probably right.

You got 4 years on the street because of two things, both completely unrelated to TWA.

The first was 9/11, and the second was because you were on the bottom of the seniority list.

How hard is it for you to accept that what happened to you would have happened with/without the acquisition of TWA?

Huh?

You are the one that said I got so much value for my money being a junior AA native. I just did not se it that way when i got hundreds of TWA on the list senior to me, then a furlough notice in the mail.

Twist and turn and play victim all the way, but not many AA pilots felt we lucked out with the TWA purchase. In fact many thought we would be better off in the long (and short) run without TWA.

Whatever, wishful thinking won't change reality, this was Carty's idea and shortly after, he was carted off the property. Thanks Uncle Don..

 

[stlflyguy]

TWA CEO Bill Compton's Senate Testimony for those who want the truth:
http://judiciary.senate.gov/oldsite/te020701wc.htm

"We can no longer afford to operate, let alone sustain these advances. TWA's Many Successes Have Not Been Enough."

Finally, this winter we ran out of time. By January 10, 2001, TWA had cash on hand of only $20 million and needed more than that amount just to make it through the next day. With our cash reserves nearly depleted and a major financial commitment to lenders coming due, our backs were squarely against the wall. "

"Only American Airlines saw fit this winter to come forward with a proposal that was not merely an offer to cherry-pick a prized asset here or there."

Yeah, let's play "Your CEO said this..." I guess they ALL tell the truth, don't they G4G5? What were Carty's statements about "fair and equitable?"

stlflyguy