What has ALPA done for me lately?

[Occam's Razor]

Now I understand the inherent benefit of an independent, in-house union.

When the pilots on the property (as opposed to those hundreds of miles away) decide for themselves to waive their rights, then don't like the way things turn out...they won't be able to sue the rest of us!

The circle of suspects shrinks a bit.

I like it!

Open issues:

1. Are all of us ready for some personal accountability? (Any East/West USAirways guys wanna weigh-in here? AA/TWA?)

2. Is it a good thing to have our freeway underpasses clogged with refrigerator boxes full of homeless tort lawyers?

 

[ironspud]

fd, occum, pcl.

I am done discussing this issue. Let it drop and we shall see if the suit has any merit.
You all obviously have your opinion and no logic will change your mind.
Fly safe and have a great Thanksgiving.

Thank you.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

fd, occum, pcl.

I am done discussing this issue. Let it drop and we shall see if the suit has any merit.
You all obviously have your opinion and no logic will change your mind.
Fly safe and have a great Thanksgiving.

I don't think there is logic to change minds.....

Well....at least those in favor of the lawsuit have failed to present logic....

 

[flygirlqt]

So the modern day airline industry doesn't match up to your grandpa's standards... DC-3 speeds can't keep up with a turbojet?

Obviously the comparison was intentionally disregarded but you know what I meant. ALPA of the past in their time is nothing like the politically fueled, backstabbing , money grubbing organization it has become today. Comments rife with sanctimonious, impious and sarcastic rhetoric from those like yourself only push this image deeper and deeper into those coming on board the industry today.

Two things.... Only the President gets a salary, and that salary is determined by the ALPA BOD, which is elected by every ALPA pilot... usually, these elections have a minority particaption rate...of 30% so who do we really need to look at?

The leadership has to ask why participation rates have dropped off the cliff. Really pretty simple in my opinion.

The other three ALPA officers get their airlines pay, basically....and they have taken deep cuts as you know.. including thier pension.

Wow..they still have a pension.

In addition, any expenes that the ALPA national officers incur (or any ALPA volunteer actually) are subject to IRS taxes. So, if I give up a day off and do ALPA work and I expense a lunch meal, then I have to pay tax on that expense as if it was income. Nice IRS...huh...

I’m sure Prater is struggling with that $10,000 a month expense allocation

The problem is people like you focus on misinformation like ALPA national salaries... and you create a negative stigma that is based on false data... how productive is that?

Misinformation? Ignoring public data and minimizing it's effect on the membership makes you part of the problem.

Sorry... nice try... the only thing Prater said was he'd take a pay cut if the BOD mandated it..

Absolutely false. Besides, if any of these guys really wanted to restore some integrity to the union they wouldn’t rely on the crutch and excuse of “the BOD determines my salary”. They certainly could forfeit it on their own. How about donating the excess to PAC? What about Charity?

Who would be doing the political hacking and backstabbing? Your fellow pilots at an LEC meeting?

You really are too far gone to accept the reality of the ALPA backroom network today. If you want o keep your delusions of grandeur I can not help you. All the while ALPA will continue to lose more of the hearts and minds of pilots daily. Again, I point to the failed Skywest organization as an perfect example. Not only in the loss but the stunning defeat for ALPA. It wasn't even close.

Aren't you really saying that this whole self reliance and responsibility for your own airline career is really a bit too troublesome...or that you don't have the energy? The fact is there are some really cool sit coms on TV that you'd rather watch.. or maybe something else?

Now I will have to mention again why there is such low participation nowadays. Read the first paragraph RezO

Nice try again... dump it on the leadership.... that way you won't have to accept responsbility for your career. You won't have to hone your political skill to deal with your political career.

Yes, blame It on the membership again. Do you ever see a pattern here?

Who really wonders if they will be politically effective in thier career while learning how to fly? Who would have known that once you got the job that you have to work to keep it and to make it better.

Who would have known that we would be paying dues to an organization that really does not represent the best interests of the entire membership?

I am not sure if it has sunk into you membership people that it is YOUR career. Quit dumping all the repsonsbility of YOUR career onto volunteers. We are trying to do the best we can but when you don't give a SH*T until it is too late and then complain that we didn't read your minds it gets real old..real quick.

I know what you mean about statements and comments getting old. Do us all a favor and let somebody else do the volunteering with your general attitude. You may do good work but your attitude and placement of blame does far more damage than good by alienating those that cast a weary eye on your actual work.

Look man...

“Man”? Are you dense?

I am tired of defending the Association to its own members. I get more respect from Congressmen, the FAA and others than I do from my own people.

Yet you still don’t realize why you have to actually do that do you? I think you need to take a good hard look in the mirror. The answer is there it is just you keep choosing to disregard it.

Who needs to wake up?

You do. Along with the elected leadership.

The 5% attendance rate at LEC meetings?
The 30% voter participation rate in LEC election?
The 30% participation rate in the AGE 60 survey.

Still can’t figure out why the low participation can you?

Sorry.. but membership involvement is way to weak and low for you to try and attempt to blame the volunteer leadership.

Where did I blame the volunteers? You sound like a lunatic at times with your misnomers and hyperbole replies towards what people write. I think half the time pilots on here just ignore your continuing fulsome writings because the summary of your messages is you have nothing actually legitimate to say.

You mean with family and a full time flight schedule, I volunteer to make this profession better, the mebership does sqaut....and it is..... get this........are you ready...... here it comes...... its.......MY FAULT.... that your career doesn't meet YOUR expectations....

Save the woe be to me speech and continued haranguing as I commend the volunteers. My problem of ALPA today is the structure, political insulation of leadership and like it or not the insulting salaries paid to the brass. However volunteers like yourself, as I said before, do more harm than good with your attitude about participation, blame and fault. Somewhere you have intentionally blurred the lines of many with their feelings today towards ALPA. You always try to turn it into a problem with the membership and attacks on volunteers within the organization.

If you paid your G-pa and Dad for your ALPA education... I suggest you get your money back... and give it to ALPA-PAC...

I would kick you right t in the nutsack for that comment you arrogant little toad however in reality one must consider the source. Besides, I probably wouldn’t hit anything anyway as someone obviously eviscerated it long ago and nothing is left.

 

[Flopgut]

OK Occam!

Not so fast genius. Litigants (at least in our case) will stay quiet so that info damaging to the other side does not inadvertently get into the wrong hands. Loose lips sink ships. If you have not figured it out yet, it would help the other side prep. We will not show our hand. Pretty simple if you think about it. And I hope that the documentation is so convincing as to bring apa/amr back into the fray.
Why are you and ual so bent on getting the gouge?

I'm pretty sure a lawsuit is a sufficient means to bear out some facts. We're gonna find out! This dude DOES need to cool it on here, but this is a good topic for this thread.

Maybe they have a bloody glove?

But, like all things "TWA", probably too little too late. Does anybody ever stop to think how close we all are to being a TWA?! Let's give them a little room to swing a cat.

Seriously Occam: If I've unfairly characterized you with regard to ALPA merger policy, let me know. Seems to me, that's the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

Do you really believe this TWA lawsuit could cost too much to run to ground?

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut, since you're so concerned about changing the RLA, which I agree with you about, do you contribute to ALPA-PAC so we can get pro-labor politicians in office to make it happen?

No. I haven't since age 65 came to the forefront. I not proud of it, but I'm not ashamed either. I've talked to CAL's legislative affairs person several times in the last couple years. That has become the single over riding issue to anything done politically. Wrongly so and I won't give a cent to it. Changing retirement age will squander any chance we have to change the RLA, or anything else. And about the time PAC clout gets re-built, another bunch of a$$holes will want it changed again.

 

[PCL_128]

No. I haven't since age 65 came to the forefront. I not proud of it, but I'm not ashamed either. I've talked to CAL's legislative affairs person several times in the last couple years. That has become the single over riding issue to anything done politically. Wrongly so and I won't give a cent to it. Changing retirement age will squander any chance we have to change the RLA, or anything else. And about the time PAC clout gets re-built, another bunch of a$$holes will want it changed again.

You're withholding important PAC money because you disagree with a single issue? I disagreed with the change in policy on Age-60 also, but I continued to back the PAC because I understood the importance of other battles that ALPA was fighting on Capital Hill. Pension reform, flight/duty times, the Akaka amendment, flight deck security, etc.... are all issues that ALPA is currently dealing with, not to mention the huge issue of foreign control and ownership. Open skies has the ability to completely eliminate your career, yet you'll withhold PAC money because Age-65 will simply delay your seniority advancement? What good is Age-60 if some Mexican pilot working for peanuts is flying our flying? We need to prioritize. Notice that both Occam and I disagreed with ALPA's change in policy on Age-60, but we recognized the important of the PAC on other issues. We can't give up on the PAC because of a single issue.

 

[PCL_128]

The leadership has to ask why participation rates have dropped off the cliff. Really pretty simple in my opinion.

The problem with your argument is that participation rates haven't "dropped off the cliff," because they have always been this low. During the old days, participation rates where exactly the same. A couple of years ago ALPA did a study of participation rates by going through the old archives to see if things had changed. The results? Participation rates are the same now as they've always been in the Association. There hasn't been any drop off, pilots are just lazy and apathetic and always have been.

 

[FDJ2]

fd, occum, pcl.

You all obviously have your opinion and no logic will change your mind.

You might also consider the possibility that you presented no logical reason to change or minds.

Regardless, I hope you have a great Thanksgiving also.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Obviously the comparison was intentionally disregarded but you know what I meant. ALPA of the past in their time is nothing like the politically fueled, backstabbing , money grubbing organization it has become today. Comments rife with sanctimonious, impious and sarcastic rhetoric from those like yourself only push this image deeper and deeper into those coming on board the industry today.

Ok... tell me about ALPA of the past.. tell me about their golden days of effectiveness and membership having a positive liking to ALPA... examples please.. Dates, stories, etc...

The leadership has to ask why participation rates have dropped off the cliff. Really pretty simple in my opinion.

See PCL128's reply below... and my follow up.. in addition... so particaption rates are low...

AND?

it is still your career... as a professional airline pilot are you giving in to resignation? Have you no desire to become politically effective? If not... then why did you become an airline pilot? Didn't your G-pa and Dad tell you about LEC meetings, resolutions, voting, communication, etc?

Do you want to say... Why should I have to be politically effective in my career? I just want to show up, fly my trip and go home.. guess what sister...so do I.

I am sure millions of American GIs didn't want to go to Europe in the 1940's...but that is the way it was...

And this is the way it is... if you want to have an Airline Career you have to get involved!

Your choice: continue the status quo and be resentful and bitter or get involved and envoke positive change.

Wow..they still have a pension.

It is the exact same as any line pilot.

I’m sure Prater is struggling with that $10,000 a month expense allocation

Here..let me help...

Duane Woerth
President
Air Line Pilots

2006 Salary Breakdown
$ 20,901 Administrative (6%)$ 0 Contributions (0%)$ 278,676 General Overhead (80%)$ 24,384 Political (7%)$ 24,384 Representational (7%)

$ 348,345 Total Earnings

Historical Salary InformationYear Salary % Raise Title2006 $ 348,345 -0.8% President2005 $ 351,186 -15.4% President2004 $ 415,026 -2.0% President2002 $ 423,705 -3.5% President2001 $ 439,296 40.2% President2000 $ 313,392 — President




Dennis Dolan
First Vice-president
Air Line Pilots


2006 Salary Breakdown
$ 0 Administrative (47%)$ 0 Contributions (0%)$ 0 General Overhead (51%)$ 0 Political (0%)$ 0 Representational (2%)

$ 0 Total Earnings

Historical Salary InformationYear Salary % Raise Title2006 $ 0 — First Vice-president2005 $ 0 — First Vice-president2004 $ 0 — First Vp2002 $ 0 — First Vice Pres2001 $ 0 — First Vice Pres2000 $ 0 — First Vice Pres

You can see the difference between the President, the only ALPA national officer that gets a salary and the first VP. (from 2005-6)

Again.. the salary is determined by the BOD, the status reps at your airline that you probably didn't vote for. Mybe you think repsresentative democracy and voting is a sham? If so, what do you thinkof the US constitution?

Maintaining a presence is Washington DC is expensive. As you know from your ALPA history, Dave Behncke set up shop in Chicago, because he was a UAL pilot. But he was spending over 50% of his time in Wash DC... so he MOVED ALPA to DC...cause that is where the areana of play is... I hope that is ok with you?

We have gone over this over and over on this website.. do a search and get informed (cause you are not).. on how the salary structue works..

Finally, not everyone can be president of ALPA. It takes political skill to do so.... in addition why would someone volunteer to give up 15+ days off to work 6 to 7 days a week?

Misinformation? Ignoring public data and minimizing it's effect on the membership makes you part of the problem.

Wrong again! I am begining to think you got your ALPA education from the cockpits and crewrooms 'experts'....

Absolutely false. Besides, if any of these guys really wanted to restore some integrity to the union they wouldn’t rely on the crutch and excuse of “the BOD determines my salary”.

Ok... would you like to see the Resolutions? Or are they just facades?

They certainly could forfeit it on their own. How about donating the excess to PAC? What about Charity?

They already give to the PAC. Do you?

Charity begins at home.