What has ALPA done for me lately?

[Flopgut]

Of course they were valid! Just like your filed destination is always valid. But, as any professional pilot knows, sometimes you gotta be prepared to deal with Plan B.

I think you're just bitter. I could be wrong, though. (I'm not...but I could be)

The issue is who or what is to blame for your failed (but valid) expectations.

You've chosen ALPA. Easy target, cuz ALPA's mistakes have been committed by...YIKES!...the guys at your very airline!

Yet your spiffy NEW UNION will draw pilots from a different demographic. They'll be totally mistake-proof, with a guileless sang-froid that soothes all, fixes all, and makes mounds of julienne fries.



Try this: Delete the word "union" and replace it with "airline brothers right here on my property"...then you'll have an accurate rant going.

You cite "honor" instead of decisions. Not to steal too many billable hours from your therapist...but why do you say that?



Ha! That's a good one! If you want to start a thread about all of the things ALPA needs to fix...let's do it. I suspect my list of needful things is longer than yours. ALPA has a lot of flaws and warts, and I would join you, arm-in-arm, if I believed an in-house alternative, drawing from the same demographic and facing the same issues, could do any better.

But unlike you, I'm not driven by unquenchable anger.

You could correctly paraphrase Occam's POV in this thread with: "Hey, how can ALPA help ME with MY upcoming needs and expectations if they are going to be bothered with [anyone but me] issues?!"

If this issue was dear to NWALPA, you'd want the coffers cleared getting the help you felt you needed. Back off these guys, I don't understand what they are trying to do but I have enough respect for them to let it run it's course.

 

[ualdriver]

The basic allegation is that ALPA didn't properly represent the TWA pilots during the integration because they were trying too woo the APA pilots into coming back to ALPA.

So ALPA had an active recruiting drive going on at American when this TWA stuff was happening? When did the drive start vs. when TWA was merged into AA?

 

[PCL_128]

So ALPA had an active recruiting drive going on at American when this TWA stuff was happening? When did the drive start vs. when TWA was merged into AA?

That's the allegation, but I have never seen any evidence to support that allegation. The TWA pilots claim that they have documentation that will be presented in court, but I think we'll end up finding out that, much like the RJDC lawsuit, they really have no substance to their case. There are always ongoing discussions between ALPA and APA leaders. I'm not sure what's going on with the new APA leadership, but I know that when I was doing work before leaving my ALPA carrier, ALPA was always in touch with Captain Hunter and the rest of the APA. That's not "recruiting," it's simply open communications and smart union work. We were also constantly talking with leaders from all of the other independent unions. Is it a long-term goal for ALPA to represent all air line pilots? Of course. ALPA would love to represent the American pilots, the AirTran pilots, the Frontier pilots, and so on, but that doesn't mean that ALPA has ever engaged in activities that would be a violation of their duty of fair representation just to "court" any of these pilots.

 

[Occam's Razor]

You could correctly paraphrase Occam's POV in this thread with: "Hey, how can ALPA help ME with MY upcoming needs and expectations if they are going to be bothered with [anyone but me] issues?!"

If you can find that anywhere in my posts, please point it out.

Back off these guys, I don't understand what they are trying to do but I have enough respect for them to let it run it's course.

What? I don't know what they're up to...but we oughta let 'em try?

Are you channeling Timmy McVeigh's mother?

Sometimes even those driven by the purest and truest of intentions can cause harm through their irresponsible methods.

But that ain't any of the issues I've raised. I want to know how the NEW UNION will function if it draws it's leaders and workers from the same group...and faces the same impediments.

 

[flygirlqt]

Hey QT..

Do you french kiss your girlfriend with that mouth?


Just wondering.....

PHXFLYR

Wonder all you like just but please, just keep your hands out of your pants while you are thinking about it.

I know that might be a radical departure from your typical layover activities.

 

[flygirlqt]

What did trhey tell you about your responsibilities as an ALPA member?

Well, my Grandfather is dead and my Dad says that today’s ALPA is nothing but a shell of it’s former self. My father said that more than likely those in my Grandfather’s era are turning in their graves seeing what has become of the union today.

but yet you thought it was acceptable when others were saying... that UAL2000 and DAL2001 were outgragous... you felt those pilots should have taken cuts..

I have never thought the salaries paid to National officers were ever acceptable. I’m not sure what you’re trying to accomplish by putting words in my mouth about UAL and DAL as I never equated anything remotely to those cba’s.

And how was it the staffers fault... expecially when the pilots agreed via free will to those paycuts.

You either missed the concept or understood it perfectly. Mostly assuredly both apply to you.

Perhaps... what is the cost of living in NOVA?

?

WRONG! that is not what he said... he said he would accept any pay structure the BOD agreed upon...

If I had the energy (or even really cared), I would search for some of Prater’s election propoganda where he did in fact state this. Either way, doesn’t really matter since the end result is the same. Another broken promise.

Cute... maybe your resolution doesn't pass the sniff test amongts cooler heads in a democratic group.

The resolution would never survive the political hacking and backstabbing it would create. The ALPA triangle has become too politically insulated for real effective membership input to result in change.

You can fret that things that you do not or cannot easily control are the big problems in your life or you can (wo)man up and understand what you can control and work to effect change.

The choice and career are yours...

Typical response but I commend you for at least toning it down from your usual "it's the memberships fault". Change also starts from the leadership. I’m not sure if it has sunk into guys like you that your continued rhetoric has alienated a lot of people towards the union. The recent dismal representation election at Skywest is a perfect example. It should also serve as a long overdue wake up call for ALPA.

 

[Flopgut]

So ALPA had an active recruiting drive going on at American when this TWA stuff was happening? When did the drive start vs. when TWA was merged into AA?

F-in' A right they did! I saw the same thing at CAL at almost the same time. ALPA was hosting info lunches in Houston and hanging out in the crew room. DW had a mostly NWALPA group leading the effort. It was pretty creepy to say the least...the ALPA message: "We're here for the money guys". $400K salaries were newly minted by UAL and DAL pilots and ALPA's thesis on how to keep them was to get CAL onboard and then AA and SWA (heard that right out of DW's mouth). NOT that they were going to help these new pilot members get the same slaraies necessarily, but rather get the dues in National's hands, AND pre-ordain the next ALPA martyrs. See, nobody "wins" playing ALPA's game unless there's a loser. It's too much for ALPA to help the whole membership equally. That was the competeing arguement against ALPA that you heard from the CAL strikers. Yes, I said the STRIKERS...Full term CAL strikers were the ones most uncomfortable with ALPA's effort to get back into CAL. If ALPA's intentions were genuinely to help ALL pilots, the strikers were the ones they should have reached out to first, but they ignored them! They were as indifferent to the strikers as they were to the guys who crossed. And, I imagine they did the same at APA. They probably ignored the history and just came with the same "we're here for the money" pitch......And I wouldn't doubt for a second ALPA's pitch to APA included an offer to withold effort on the part of TWA's pilots.

 

[Flopgut]

If you can find that anywhere in my posts, please point it out.

It's obvious the way you argue this. If this was your baby, you'd want all the stops pulled out. You want ALPA resourses topped off for your pilot group and want to ration everybody else. That's how ALPA operates (especially NWA). When I think of TWA I'm glad their transaction wasn't ALPA to ALPA. Say, for instance, the deal wasn't AA. What if it was NWA? You guys might have given 10% of them interviews! But NO more than that! And ALPA would have made sure of it.

But that ain't any of the issues I've raised. I want to know how the NEW UNION will function if it draws it's leaders and workers from the same group...and faces the same impediments.

I don't know what the he!! makes you think anything BUT the union is the problem at this point?! How bad do things actually have to be before you start to question ALPA yourself? If you factor how expensive ALPA is, and how fundamentally flawed it is, how can you strike from consideration that another union couldn't do it better? It's about the only ingredient we haven't changed in our career equation.

 

[ualdriver]

F-in' A right they did! I saw the same thing at CAL at almost the same time. ALPA was hosting info lunches in Houston and hanging out in the crew room. DW had a mostly NWALPA group leading the effort.

OK, so what's wrong with ALPA trying to recruit the CAL guys? I think it's pretty clear that ALPA wants to represent ALL airline pilots.

It was pretty creepy to say the least...the ALPA message: "We're here for the money guys". $400K salaries were newly minted by UAL and DAL pilots and ALPA's thesis on how to keep them was to get CAL onboard and then AA and SWA (heard that right out of DW's mouth).

Well that makes sense, doesn't it? It's easier to hang on to high salaries when EVERYONE is represented by the same union and the union controls the supply of pilots. Does it not? So basically it's "creepy" when DW says hey guys, we have guys at UAL and DAL making big bucks, and we want to make sure that you guys get on board this gravy train too? I would assume he wanted to make sure that the CAL, AA, and SWA guys didn't undercut those hard fought salaries?

NOT that they were going to help these new pilot members get the same slaraies necessarily, but rather get the dues in National's hands, AND pre-ordain the next ALPA martyrs.

OK, so it's your argument that ALPA had no intention of getting new CAL and AA and SWA pilot members the same high salaries as the DAL and UAL pilots had? You have written that ALPA only cares about dues money. If that is the case, then wouldn't ALPA get MORE dues money by getting those guy the same high salaries that UA and DAL had?

See, nobody "wins" playing ALPA's game unless there's a loser. It's too much for ALPA to help the whole membership equally.

??

That was the competeing arguement against ALPA that you heard from the CAL strikers. Yes, I said the STRIKERS...Full term CAL strikers were the ones most uncomfortable with ALPA's effort to get back into CAL.

Apparently they ended up not being that uncomfortable because ALPA got voted in.

If ALPA's intentions were genuinely to help ALL pilots, the strikers were the ones they should have reached out to first, but they ignored them! They were as indifferent to the strikers as they were to the guys who crossed.

Yet the CAL pilots voted them in?

And, I imagine they did the same at APA. They probably ignored the history and just came with the same "we're here for the money" pitch......And I wouldn't doubt for a second ALPA's pitch to APA included an offer to withold effort on the part of TWA's pilots.

That's complete speculation, isn't it? I thought there were "facts" concerning the TWA lawsuit. I'm not hearing any, and that's what I was hoping to get. What in the world does 99% of the above have to do with the TWA vs. ALPA lawsuit, anyway?

I'll put you in the "I hate ALPA category because all they want is dues money." Thanks for the info......I think.

 

[ualdriver]

That's the allegation, but I have never seen any evidence to support that allegation. The TWA pilots claim that they have documentation that will be presented in court, but I think we'll end up finding out that, much like the RJDC lawsuit, they really have no substance to their case. There are always ongoing discussions between ALPA and APA leaders. I'm not sure what's going on with the new APA leadership, but I know that when I was doing work before leaving my ALPA carrier, ALPA was always in touch with Captain Hunter and the rest of the APA. That's not "recruiting," it's simply open communications and smart union work. We were also constantly talking with leaders from all of the other independent unions. Is it a long-term goal for ALPA to represent all air line pilots? Of course. ALPA would love to represent the American pilots, the AirTran pilots, the Frontier pilots, and so on, but that doesn't mean that ALPA has ever engaged in activities that would be a violation of their duty of fair representation just to "court" any of these pilots.

OK, so one of the points of the TWA lawsuit vs. ALPA is that there was some sort of communication between ALPA leaders and APA leaders during this Jan '01 to Sept. '02 time period which they deem as a recuitment drive. This recruitment drive involved ALPA cutting a deal with the APA to sell out the TWA pilots in the hopes of APA someday joining ALPA? Am I getting the gist of one of their man points?

There has to be more than that!