What has ALPA done for me lately?

[ualdriver]

I don't know what the he!! makes you think anything BUT the union is the problem at this point?! How bad do things actually have to be before you start to question ALPA yourself? If you factor how expensive ALPA is, and how fundamentally flawed it is, how can you strike from consideration that another union couldn't do it better? It's about the only ingredient we haven't changed in our career equation.

Flopgut, who do you work for?

I'm not striking from consideration that another union couldn't do better than ALPA. What union, what is their specific plan to make things better, and how much less expensive is it going to be than ALPA to accomplish more with less? I'm all ears. He11, I'll run the recruiting drive at UAL if you have an organization that can help ALL airline pilots enjoy a better career! Details, please!

 

[FDJ2]

That's complete speculation, isn't it? I thought there were "facts" concerning the TWA lawsuit. I'm not hearing any, and that's what I was hoping to get.

The fact is that the TWA MEC, not ALPA National conceded their seniority integration protection based on AA and the APA giving a reasonable best effort at seniority integration.

When the seniority list was published, ALPA immediately grieved it. The arbitrator's decision was that AA and the APA had indeed given a reasonable best effort at a fair seniority integration. ALPA lost the argument and was then sued for the list produced by the APA and AA.

 

[ualdriver]

The fact is that the TWA MEC, not ALPA National conceded their seniority integration protection based on AA and the APA giving a reasonable best effort at seniority integration.

When the seniority list was published, ALPA immediately grieved it. The arbitrator's decision was that AA and the APA had indeed given a reasonable best effort at a fair seniority integration. ALPA lost the argument and was then sued for the list produced by the APA and AA.

OK, thanks. I was familiar with that timeline, but I thought there would have been very specific events that would have been cited by the TWA pilot group as a basis for the lawsuit. I mean, if one looks at what's going on with U.S. Airways, they can point to specifics in the Nicolau decision as a basis for their desire to give ALPA the finger (even though I think the U.S. Air guys are wrong). I would have assumed there would have been specifics in this TWA lawsuit as well. I suspect I'm beating a dead horse. It seems that everyone knows TWA is suing ALPA, but no one knows why.

 

[Vne]

The fact is that the TWA MEC, not ALPA National conceded their seniority integration protection based on AA and the APA giving a reasonable best effort at seniority integration.

When the seniority list was published, ALPA immediately grieved it. The arbitrator's decision was that AA and the APA had indeed given a reasonable best effort at a fair seniority integration. ALPA lost the argument and was then sued for the list produced by the APA and AA.

Yah thats it ...you must have a vistors pass to the Star Chamber Thanks ........

 

[PCL_128]

There has to be more than that!

You would think so, wouldn't you? Unfortunately, it doesn't take much in this country to file a lawsuit. This one will end the same way that the RJDC suit ended, having wasted tons of union money and resources for nothing.

 

[Flopgut]

I'll put you in the "I hate ALPA category because all they want is dues money." Thanks for the info......I think.

I'm a CAL pilot.

Put me in the category: "I can't stand pilots that don't understand what's actually going on". I have been in three pilot labor unions, I don't care what the name is per say, I just want a unified group that can respect other members. I'm sick of this Survivor-reality-show BS we've got going on. If the TWA guys say they have a case, let em work it! I don't think we need to exclude them simply because they've been voted off the island. If ALPA did something wrong--I want to know about it! I think we all should! Problem we've got here is a guy like Occam (and maybe you as well) doesn't want ALPA's dirty secrets exposed, wants to keep hiding them and keep them available for future use! Read Occam's posts. Anytime the golden share is brought up he's right there instantly. Got the same thing to say all the time and it's pretty clear that deception, half-truth, and all other manner of ALPA antics are something he's acutely aware of. Certainly, he's counting on them, and there are probably 1000s of guys like him over there. It's NWA for cryinoutloud...All they know is stuffing a knife in someone's back. ALPA merger policy was corrupted years ago by UAL, RLA job protections (that would have protected the TWA pilots) were dropped by ALPA to favor the olde "big three". Until we fix these problems, ALPA might be a lost cause. There are a lot of other unions out there. Any would be better where all pilot groups agreed to these sorts of principals.

Your new Master Chair is going to be a good one. When the dust settles and he gets to start working on the line pilots' relationship with the RLA, some real good could happen.

FWIW: I think we should have a national organization that works like SAG. Get your card when you get your ATP. We need to provide and administer our own retirement plan, health insurance, LOL, and unemployment (maybe even training). Replace our companies role in these pursuits. Got to have a card to get the benefits. It's NOT a bad idea.

 

[PCL_128]

If the TWA guys say they have a case, let em work it!

If you "let em work it," then they could end up bankrupting the union and ending all union protection for ALPA members. When you sue your union, you're really suing your fellow pilots.

 

[pilotss]

I'm all for the national seniority list!

 

[ualdriver]

If the TWA guys say they have a case, let em work it! I don't think we need to exclude them simply because they've been voted off the island. If ALPA did something wrong--I want to know about it! I think we all should!

I generally agree with this, assuming it's not a frivolous lawsuit over stuff ALPA had little or no control over. That's why I was asking about the facts of the lawsuit. I have no idea if ALPA was right or screwed up, but I'm assuming innocence until I hear facts otherwise.

ALPA merger policy was corrupted years ago by UAL, RLA job protections (that would have protected the TWA pilots) were dropped by ALPA to favor the olde "big three". Until we fix these problems, ALPA might be a lost cause.

OK, so what merger policy should ALPA have when two ALPA groups merge AND make both sides happy with the results? I like the one we have now. It's better and more fair than straight DOH, which is what I assume you're going to suggest. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Further, what policy should ALPA "impose" on non-ALPA carriers when there is a merger? What policy should ALPA "impose" on non-ALPA carriers when one of the merger parterns is a bankrupt ALPA carrier and the other is a healthier, non-ALPA carrier? Maybe we should make it illegal for a MEC to waive any of it's rights pre-merger, no matter what the circumstances?

I'm all ears as to what merger policy would have been a win-win situation for the TWA and AA pilots.

There are a lot of other unions out there. Any would be better where all pilot groups agreed to these sorts of principals.

What principles should we all agree to?

FWIW: I think we should have a national organization that works like SAG. Get your card when you get your ATP. We need to provide and administer our own retirement plan, health insurance, LOL, and unemployment (maybe even training). Replace our companies role in these pursuits. Got to have a card to get the benefits. It's NOT a bad idea.

Great idea. How do we implement that unless EVERY AIRLINE PILOT IN THE COUNTRY is under the ALPA umbrella? Let's say ALPA announced that tomorrow. How long do you think it will be before non-union carriers like JetBlue, Virgin, etc., simply undercut all of us again, like the LCC's did in the late 90's and early 00's and put us back into the same precarious situation we found ourselves several years ago? But then if ALPA makes efforts to get every airline pilot under the same umbrella in order to implement your idea, ALPA's accused of just wanting dues money and not caring about the plight of the airline pilot.

 

[Vne]

When you sue your union, you're really suing your fellow pilots.

When you ask your union for help you are really asking your fellow pilots for help.