CAL GUYS, PAY not as they stated in writting.

[Hpilot]

As a probationary pilot? I'd classify that as poor judgment.

Totally agree with that. A guy at Airwisky brought this kind of attention on himself. They waited until the year probation meeting then said "don't let the door hit you on the way out".

 

[Lear70]

A) Never seen a pilot fired for something so small. Never seen a probie fired at all, and I have seen some probies do some pretty darn dumb stuff.

You must have worked at some very cool places.

I've seen it happen many, many times.

However, of those that happened, most occurred because the person in question either had the tact of a pit bull or the brain of one.

Sounds like the question has already been answered: you read your letter incorrectly. Glad this forum was good for something helpful to you (clarification). Sorry it's not in your favor (pay).

As far as Skybus? Get the type rating, use it to go Ex-Pat DEC for $150k+ a year. Keep their training costs SKY high...

 

[Bavarian Chef]

While we may not be at the bottom, we can see if from here.

Folks are walking from CAL and JB. Age 60 has meant that the FO wages better be livable, because some of us are going to be on them for a while. I think we got a shot across the industry on these next contracts for some serious improvements...

Its not a question of whether guys will leave their company or their industry. Its happening already.

Skybus? Nobody will stay. They'll fill some classes with some new meat that want A320 type ratings, but just as JB is having a hard time filling classes as the train has slowed and rapid upgrades aren't happening--Skybus will see the same thing.

And do you refuse to prep any of them, especially those dirtbags from jb or skybus?

(toungue in cheek, albie. actually a deeper question than the mob will take it for.)

 

[talespin]

CAL has always had sub-par pay even before 9/11 with a weak pilot group. Any place that lets scabs be union officals should raise some flags.

Well there is a lot of new young blood at this company who have been eating sh!t for a long time at the regional carriers, so hopefully we will stand together for contract 08. I know everyone I talk with is pissed and won't settle for less. I hope this holds true as we approach the table. You guys keep in mind we are the first ALPA carrier to go through this since 9/11 and all the bullsh!t cuts, so what ever airline your at a little support would be nice and hopefully our contract will pay off in the end when yours comes around.

 

[Uniform Shop]

This cracks me up. If you have only been at XJT for a few years and you won't go to CAL, and still look for a "better" airline while you're there, you're nuts. It's a lot easier to leave CAL for another airline then it is from XJT. Why someone wouldn't make the move is beyond me.

First year pay does suck and no insurance for the first 6 months is total B.S. That will change, I guarantee it. I wish you could see our private message boards. That's one of the hottest topics. I also guarantee that our pay is going to go up substantially on the next contract. If it doesn't you will see pilots leaving everyday.

As far as new hires leaving. There are a few people leaving but not as much as this message board makes it out to be. I know people who have gone back to DAL because of their pension settlement and longevity. I would leave too if I was going to get 200,000 into my 401K and 7th year pay. Everyone has their reasons for leaving.

I honestly believe that we have some of the best flying in the industry. As a new hire you have the option to fly all over the world in wide body aircraft or fly 737's all over the U.S., South America, Caribbean and Mexico. If you combine our flying with a decent contract then you would have one of the most desired places to be.

They gave up way too much on the last contract but it was negotiated by morons during the worst downturn in Aviation history and it will get better.

 

[pkober]

An ex-CAL guy (left after 9 months for SWA) was in the XJT weather room yesterday telling a story that his hotel room wasn't scheduled in IAH the night before his IOE. He called scheduling and they told him it wasn't their problem and advised him to sleep in the crew room. He said it happened to 4 other guys in his new hire class.

There is no way I cold work for that place after hearing so many stories. Yes, for you history buffs, I interviewed, was hired, and turned them down when they called me with a class date. Definitely wost major IMO.

I was most concerned that nothing is going to change there for a long time.

bye farr da bust speeling seene 2 dait!

Good luck with your career choices. Every airline I have worked for, 3 majors, has problems. If your looking for a dream airline job, keep looking. Anyone who thinks that the airline they work for is perfect must be smoking crack.

 

[pkober]

CAL has always had sub-par pay even before 9/11 with a weak pilot group. Any place that lets scabs be union officals should raise some flags.

I guess you feel the same way about UAL. If the scab issue bothers you than you should be mad a ALPA national. They welcomed the CAL scabs back into the fold with open arms. It's all about money. I don't like what the scabs did either and they suck as pilots. But you can't lump all of CAL into some kind of scab group. Most of us are "loyal" ALPA members in good standing.

As far as pay goes, look at our pay now compared to the other majors. If we are now sub-par, then most others are sub-parrier. First year pay sucks and hopefully will be addressed in 08.

 

[Andy]

A) Never seen a pilot fired for something so small. Never seen a probie fired at all, and I have seen some probies do some pretty darn dumb stuff.

B) Ignorance on the subject? Disagreement is not a sign of ignorance. How many airlines have you been employed by? This is my third in 9 years, so I think its safe to say I have the ability and background to draw a rational opinion on this subject.

I personally know two pilots who were canned during their probationary year; one at United and one at Alaska. I know both of them and was on a first name basis with both of them. I know of several others who were canned from various airlines during probationary year.
If you say that you've never seen a probie fired at all, then yes, you are ignorant on the subject. Either you haven't noticed or you don't know many pilots. So by your statement that you've never known a probie to be fired indicates that you do not have the ability and background to discuss this subject.
How many airlines have I been employed by? Two. But I know hundreds of pilots at all different airlines.

The problem here is that you do not know if the original poster draws attention to themselves on a regular basis. If so, the very best recommendation is that they keep a low profile for a year.
SOVT has posted the letter that he received from CAL; this whole thread is because the original poster was unable to comprehend the concept of being a reserve pilot vs being in training. That tells me that the original poster is not the sharpest knife in the drawer (harsh statement, but the letter is clear enough). Based on this, I would say that the very best advice that could be given to the original poster is to have a low profile for a year.

 

[pianoman]

An ex-CAL guy (left after 9 months for SWA) was in the XJT weather room yesterday telling a story that his hotel room wasn't scheduled in IAH the night before his IOE. He called scheduling and they told him it wasn't their problem and advised him to sleep in the crew room. He said it happened to 4 other guys in his new hire class.

There is no way I cold work for that place after hearing so many stories. Yes, for you history buffs, I interviewed, was hired, and turned them down when they called me with a class date. Definitely wost major IMO.

I was most concerned that nothing is going to change there for a long time.

Oh no a scheduling problem?! That NEVER happened to me at XJT!

I've always defended the choice of guys who want to stay at XJT and pass up CAL. Would you mind laying off slamming my choice for a little while? There are ups and downs to every place but, honestly, you're just making yourself look petty and immature by doing this.

 

[IslandDriver]

Just Food for thought

First year pay at Continental : $27,360
First Year at SWA: $48,672 - $7,000 for type = $41,672 plis you do not have to pay COBRA to keep your family insured......


All based on min gaurantee 737

In short over your first 4 years at CAL you will make $190,000 (min on 73) SWA you will make $320,000 (min on 73) at CJC you can make $225,000 on the Q over the next 4 years as a Captain....something to think about when you jump ship for CAL.

 

[ferlo]

Just suck it up for now, get off probation and call in sick for a couple 4 days...You're going to get your money one way or another...Airlines never seem to understand that.

 

[pkober]

Just Food for thought

First year pay at Continental : $27,360
First Year at SWA: $48,672 - $7,000 for type = $41,672 plis you do not have to pay COBRA to keep your family insured......


All based on min gaurantee 737

In short over your first 4 years at CAL you will make $190,000 (min on 73) SWA you will make $320,000 (min on 73) at CJC you can make $225,000 on the Q over the next 4 years as a Captain....something to think about when you jump ship for CAL.

You can get insured with other plans that they offer on day one. You don't have to buy COBRA. The whole insurance thing is blown out of proportion. Mostly by people who don't work at CAL and don't know. You can get insured for less than what you will pay once on CAL's insurance. You will have a high deductible, that's all. You're not left in the cold.


You forgot to add the upgrade time at CAL right now may be as low as two years. Junior captain is a 2001 hire with approx 4 years of furlough time. He is making more that $50/hr. So first year $27,000. Second year $65,000. He is a captain now for years three and four, $140,000 x 2 = $280,000. $280,000 + $65,000 + $27,000 = $372,000. Than add into that about 8 on time bonus checks at $65 dollars a pop for and additional $2080 and you now have $374,000 over four years. He may make a few cents more on per diem so lets make it $374,352.69.

You like SWA and thats peachy. I like it here at CAL and that's swell. Can't we all just get along.

 

[Whataburger]

If you say that you've never seen a probie fired at all, then yes, you are ignorant on the subject. So a lawyer that has never seen someone get a lethal injection can't argue for or against the death penalty? I went thru my memory banks - yes I did see one fired for stealing from a shop in DCA while in uniform. How about we both stick to what we know. You stick with mil stuff and I'll stick with civ. Just because you've sat around the crewroom 5 years ago does not make you an expert on major airlines. Maby an expert on being furlougheed. Seems you've been furloughed longer than flying the line.Either you haven't noticed or you don't know many pilots. I know tons of pilots. Good, you get the "knows the most pilots" award. So by your statement that you've never known a probie to be fired indicates that you do not have the ability and background to discuss this subject. Wrong again.
How many airlines have I been employed by? Two. But I know hundreds of pilots at all different airlines.

The problem here is that you do not know if the original poster draws attention to themselves on a regular basis. If so, the very best recommendation is that they keep a low profile for a year.
SOVT has posted the letter that he received from CAL; this whole thread is because the original poster was unable to comprehend the concept of being a reserve pilot vs being in training. You've never misread something? That tells me that the original poster is not the sharpest knife in the drawer (harsh statement, but the letter is clear enough). Based on this, I would say that the very best advice that could be given to the original poster is to have a low profile for a year.

Seems that someone cant have another opinion than yourself. That's pretty weak. Some of our opinions can be right or wrong, but to call someone ignorant or "not the sharpest knife in the drawer for a small oversight is a bit pompous dont ya think?

 

[Uniform Shop]

All based on min gaurantee 737

In short over your first 4 years at CAL you will make $190,000 (min on 73) SWA you will make $320,000 (min on 73) at CJC you can make $225,000 on the Q over the next 4 years as a Captain....something to think about when you jump ship for CAL.

Did you compare CJC's and CAL for the next 25 years? There are a lot more factors to consider before you look at worst case scenario. As a new hire you could get the 757/767 or the 777. If you were awarded the 737 as a new hire you can jump to the 757/767 or 777 on the next bid. You will also receive a profit sharing check. Last year was about a months pay. This year it should be more because we made money in the first quarter compared to a big loss last year.

You also have to look at movement. In a 1.5 years I am only 350 numbers from Captain in EWR. I should hold that within the next 2 years (worst case). I understand that it's all subject to change tomorrow but if there is a drastic change it will be industry wide, not just at CAL.

I'm not happy about flying 90 hours a month but we are so short staffed that you should be looking at at least 85 hours a month for pay, not 72. That doesn't change the crappy hourly rate but it will help you through the tough first year.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to come here. It was a tough decision for me to be honest with you but you can't base your decision on Airlinepilotpay.com. I'm glad I made the move but I was hired at the beginning of the hiring so maybe I'm a little more biased.

Good Luck.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Seems that someone cant have another opinion than yourself. That's pretty week. Some of our opinions can be right or wrong, but to call someone ignorant or "not the sharpest knife in the drawer for a small oversight is a bit pompous dont ya think?

I think you've proved his point quite well. Maybe you'll re-read your post, then think a little. Maybe run a spell checker or two. It's interesting how many of you Southwest Pukes think you've got this thing all figured out. The arrogance will diminish rapidly when the rest of the industry returns to normal. Once again, I don't expect you to understand, cause UND, Riddle, or which ever rock you snaked through didn't elicit history, just arrogance it seems.

 

[Whataburger]

I think you've proved his point quite well. Maybe you'll re-read your post, then think a little. Maybe run a spell checker or two. It's interesting how many of you Southwest Pukes think you've got this thing all figured out. The arrogance will diminish rapidly when the rest of the industry returns to normal. Once again, I don't expect you to understand, cause UND, Riddle, or which ever rock you snaked through didn't elicit history, just arrogance it seems.

Thankx. You got to my "week" before I did. My finger studderd on the "e." It's fixed. Please explain how I showed arrogance and what makes me a "Southwest Puke." Why the hostility? I don't believe I "snaked" thru anything to get where I am. What makes you say that?

Just for Grins. Here is one of your previous posts. "Man oh man, it would be nice if this was an expansion time again, with descent contracts to follow. I guess I'm in Cinderella land, hanging with the bunny smoking from the hookah."

We're all human. I enjoy my job, I hope you and Andy enjoy yours.

 

[BID]

Pocono, I am glad you decided not to accept the job offer at CAL. I do not understand why you decided to take the interview though? Maybe to practice for the "big" day?

Look, I have been at CAL for less than 2 years, I have over 1000 pilots below me on the seniority list. That is a really good number, and we will continue to hire here. I can't defend what this pilot group voted on, we all know the contract sucks.

There is so much potential here at CAL. I truly believe we will be industry leaders. You did not make a mistake not accepting the CAL job offer, you made a mistake not understanding the airline industry.

Has SWA always been the top airline to work for? Nope. and I do not think CAL will always be the worse.

 

[Uniform Shop]

I can also say confidently that I would rather work for XJT until I move onto another major airline, instead of work for CAL.

Is it true that pilots are actually getting hired with CAL and leaving for SWA, FedEx, UPS, DAL? Don't bother to answer, I know they are.

Why are they doing that? It must be pretty bad at CAL.

Seriously now. Stop slamming CAL you are just making yourself look petty and immature by doing this.

Sound familiar?

There are ups and downs to every place but, honestly, you're just making yourself look petty and immature.

 

[Captain X]

We've done it to ourselves.... nobody to blame but ourselves.....

This just deserved repeating. And we are the ones who are gonna have to fix it too.

 

[Skywriter70]

Guys, guys, guys.... I received a response back rather quickly. From you, but also from the powers within, and it was an honest mistake. Yes the letter did read exactly as I stated, and they were thankful that it was brought to there attention so it could be corrected. There was an individual that did respond quoting his letter. His letter was apparently different than the letter the last (many) classes received. There were two sentences left out just prior to his bold section talking of 76 garantee for reserve. I too had that part, but the two sentences that were in question were specifically the two sentences prior to that. They stated that "Training pay is calculated at 76 hours per month for a full monh of training." I can handle errors, and apologies, as long as they were true errors, and corrections are made. Am I bitter, no, am I happy to be at CAL. MOST CERTAINLY.. Did I make the right choice coming here, you betcha... I chose to come here. Will there ever be a situation at a company that you are employed at that something doesn't make sense or needs to be fixed. You betcha, but it's how you handle that specific event and remember that mistakes are made. Yes even we make mistakes guys. All of you have great beliefs, and opinions. Most are worthy because of your own past experiences. I have worked at better than 6 airlines prior and can truly say that in my experience so far CAL has been the best so far and hope it continues to be just that. Ever person's situation is different and different things work for different people. PoconoPilot, I have watched your posts through just about every post, and you are truly very bitter, a true pesimist. I really feel that you would/could find the bad in just about ever place you work. Not only find it, but harp on it so you drag others down. Please, find a way to make the industry better, rather than talk down about your fellow pilots, and more so, YOUR CHOSEN PROFFESSION.. Thank you all for your comments and input, again I realize I am one of the new guys, but I think that any situation can be worked through if handled correctly, and I do believe that CAL was genuine in there response and sorry for the error. It was also corrected for future classes. That's what it was, and positive came from it.... I did make the right choice coming here and do feel that CAL is certainly better positioned than almost all other airlines, and my potential is greater here than almost anywhere else. Some of you I have responded privately back to. Thank you. I look forward to possibly flying with you some day on the line. Keep up the good work. I am here by choice, and glad to be. Could things get better, yes. Could things be worse, yes. What a great opportunity CAL has, and what a great opportunity we have at CAL. No true improvement can be made if we are always fighting each other. No this is not a let's all be a happy family chat", but come on. I had a genuine concern and I respect the professional responses. POCONOPILOT, YOU NEED HELP!!!!! thanks again all.....

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Its the principle of the "muthaf..ker". I would fight for it, whats next at CAL, no pay at all in training?

Naw dog that's wrong, it's the principality of the muthaf..ker:laugh:


WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

As a probationary pilot? I'd classify that as poor judgment.

Yeah Andy you're right but the post was funny as H ell...

WD.

 

[Skywriter70]

Poor judgement????

Poor judgement was asking if an error was made in the calculation of my check. First you say That's wrong Dog, it's the principle of it - then you say it was poor judgement on my behalf, as a probie? It was handled tackfully and an honest question about pay. I don't follow your comment. Please explain...

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Poor judgement was asking if an error was made in the calculation of my check. First you say That's wrong Dog, it's the principle of it - then you say it was poor judgement on my behalf, as a probie? It was handled tackfully and an honest question about pay. I don't follow your comment. Please explain...

I'll take a quick stab at it. As a pilot on probabation just be a number for 365 days. I fully understand where you are coming form as you were told you would be paid one thing then got something else. Ask tactfully if you must ask at all but not the company, ask your union rep!

Now as for me the one post was too funny for me not to chime in...

WD.

 

[Captain Overs]

My New Hire acceptance letter for CAL stated exactly word for word, "Pay begins the first day of training. Training pay is calculated at 76.00 hours per month for a full month of training. First year pay is $29.97 per hour, regardless of equipment flown." Now, I was in training during the entire month of April, and I was compensated for 72.00 hours. I called payroll and they said that the correct compensation is 72.00, not 76.00 as stated in the letter, and that the letter was wrong. HMMMM????!!!!???? They also told me that I was to reference Section 3 Part 8 Para C..... of the contract if I had any questions. Seems to me that this letter is legally binding, and no contract was given to me ahead of accepting the job, and starting training. If it changed somewhere along the lines, hiring dept did not make the changes, but that's not my fault. Secondly, if you read section mentioned, it is geared towards not a newhire, but someone flying the line, one who might be losing pay during training because it references (2:24) or trip lost, whichever is greater. I am certainly not new to airline contracts, but would like the money that I feel I am owed. Not much, but a great deal for a newhire here. CAL guys, your input, and best course of action please.... New guy and realize that as well with regard to being a squeaky wheel, just want what I feel I am owed. Keep in mind, this also effect 100's of newhires even though they havent realized it until now.... Thanks for the input...

I wouldn't worry about it. Let it go. If you're willing to work for $29 an hour, what's $90 to $100?

 

[Captain Overs]

This cracks me up. If you have only been at XJT for a few years and you won't go to CAL, and still look for a "better" airline while you're there, you're nuts. It's a lot easier to leave CAL for another airline then it is from XJT. Why someone wouldn't make the move is beyond me.

First year pay does suck and no insurance for the first 6 months is total B.S. That will change, I guarantee it. I wish you could see our private message boards. That's one of the hottest topics. I also guarantee that our pay is going to go up substantially on the next contract. If it doesn't you will see pilots leaving everyday.

As far as new hires leaving. There are a few people leaving but not as much as this message board makes it out to be. I know people who have gone back to DAL because of their pension settlement and longevity. I would leave too if I was going to get 200,000 into my 401K and 7th year pay. Everyone has their reasons for leaving.

I honestly believe that we have some of the best flying in the industry. As a new hire you have the option to fly all over the world in wide body aircraft or fly 737's all over the U.S., South America, Caribbean and Mexico. If you combine our flying with a decent contract then you would have one of the most desired places to be.

They gave up way too much on the last contract but it was negotiated by morons during the worst downturn in Aviation history and it will get better.

I guess you're right. Its harder to go somewhere while your building PIC in an RJ than SIC in a 737.

Also, look at CAL historically. They've always been near the bottom in wages and benefits. I'm glad your gunning for the future, but I think you're rationalizing a false hope.

 

[Uniform Shop]

I guess you're right. Its harder to go somewhere while your building PIC in an RJ than SIC in a 737.

If you already have your 1000 hours PIC then your above statement is 100 percent correct.

Also, look at CAL historically. They've always been near the bottom in wages and benefits. I'm glad your gunning for the future, but I think you're rationalizing a false hope.

Who are you comparing CAL too? FedEx? SWA? I'm a little confused. I really do hope that we have a contract that will compare to FedEx and maybe we won't but I guarantee it will be better than any commuter and probably better than most of the other majors.

My point is CAL is a huge step up from any commuter. We have problems but "most" of that will get resolved in 08'.

 

[HA25]

Poor judgement? Done properly, this could be done without getting in "trouble." Managements such as yours, Andy, know that pilots of most major airlines are scared to put their d!ck on the line to fight for what they believe in. It's only $80/mo, it's only a few days more off, it's only a couple of bucks an hour, its only your pension, it's..................................................

Well said..

I find it ironic that the LCC is now lecturing the "Legacy" about this type of "go the extra mile" mentality, but it's only because some of these Legacy unions are completely inept, short sighted, and will sell out their young in a heart beat!

 

[HA25]

While we may not be at the bottom, we can see if from here.

Folks are walking from CAL and JB. Age 60 has meant that the FO wages better be livable, because some of us are going to be on them for a while. I think we got a shot across the industry on these next contracts for some serious improvements...

Its not a question of whether guys will leave their company or their industry. Its happening already.

Skybus? Nobody will stay. They'll fill some classes with some new meat that want A320 type ratings, but just as JB is having a hard time filling classes as the train has slowed and rapid upgrades aren't happening--Skybus will see the same thing.

Also well said...

The days of rapid upgrades and crappy FO wages are numbered.. 60% should be the minimum target, and with wages depressed to begin with, this is even more critical.

 

[Captain Overs]

If you already have your 1000 hours PIC then your above statement is 100 percent correct.



Who are you comparing CAL too? FedEx? SWA? I'm a little confused. I really do hope that we have a contract that will compare to FedEx and maybe we won't but I guarantee it will be better than any commuter and probably better than most of the other majors.

My point is CAL is a huge step up from any commuter. We have problems but "most" of that will get resolved in 08'.

You'll be lucky to get back to where you were before the concessionary contract. You may get a little bump, but don't expect a 20%+ raise. You'll be lucky to see 10%. Kellner has bean counters doing the work. Their not going to give away the store.

Look at the airplanes they gave Expressjet, and look at the money they thought they'd save from bringing in CHQ. The bottom line was saving a dollar, not quality of product.

Don't shoot the messenger.

It all comes down to what you want from a job. If you want the big bucks, CAL's not it. If you want quality life, I would say CAL lacks. If you live in Houston it's great. For me its quality of life. I want to spend time with the family and make a few dollars.

I've never met anyone at age 60 who says "I wish I had worked more."