Part Time Employment Pilots??

[immelman79]

damn, stop all your bitching. yeah we all know pay sucks when we start out, it gets better. the average doctor, lawyer, etc. all don't start out making +100k, it takes time, ask them-maybe you'll learn something. And don't say we are compared to bus drivers- maybe in your mind- smarten up fool. And what makes you think you deserve all this money so soon. These new pilots starting at regionals are making 70k within a couple of years after switching seats -all major captains are at least 130k to 250k. If you feel like your in such a bad industry- get the hell out because your life must suck being so miserable.

 

[Smarta$$]

If your profession requires that you get a second job just so you can put food on your table, then you are in a F'd up industry. With that said, Aviation is an f'd up industry. We all can agree on that. We are are supposed to be professionals with precious souls in our hands.

There was a time when Pilots were compared to Doctors, and they were paid like them too. Now we are compared to Bus Drivers! For that I blame the Regional bottom feeders.

How long are all of you guys/gals going to justify making 19k/yr (and in some cases less) just so that you can gain the experience to go somewhere better. Pretty soon, there won't be anywhere to go! You Regional Scope Busters are eliminating the jobs that you are climbing the ladder for.

This isn't about who flys a faster piece of alluminum, it's about making the industry one that people can build lives around.

WRONG. Even when major airline pilots were paid well, regional pilots were paid terrible. Only thing that changed were the engines on the side. FOr that you can blame mainline pilots for giving up their scope. Any major airline pilot that came from a regional was paid crap. Just because it was a T-prop doesn't change that fact.

 

[insomniac99]

Tool. We are not taking anything. We fly what mainline pilots GIVE away.

that statement would be true with one little change, remove pilots, insert management.

I really don't care if you think I am a tool. do you guys realise that you are cutting your own throats in the longrun. It wouldn't bother me so much if you weren't cutting mine at the same time.

 

[insomniac99]

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/...tionname_1=&deductionamt_1=&deductiontype_1=3

I think some of these drivers even get to wear a big hat and crisp white shirt! I'm sure their bosses will even let them pin a set of wings on their shirts if they want!

I'm sure that could be arranged for some sort of wage/benefit give back.

 

[insomniac99]

dang, stop all your bitching. yeah we all know pay sucks when we start out, it gets better. the average doctor, lawyer, etc. all don't start out making +100k, it takes time, ask them-maybe you'll learn something. And don't say we are compared to bus drivers- maybe in your mind- smarten up fool. And what makes you think you deserve all this money so soon. These new pilots starting at regionals are making 70k within a couple of years after switching seats -all major captains are at least 130k to 250k. If you feel like your in such a bad industry- get the hell out because your life must suck being so miserable.

Who's talking about making 100K? I'm talking about having enough money to pay for a place to live, some food to eat and to pay bills. There is no way I could live on 22K a year. I think that the minimum acceptable salary for a professional is 30K/yr.

 

[Flyby1206]

Regional/commuter payscales have ALWAYS been ridiculously low. Talk to any pilot who has started out years ago and they talk about PAYING for training, and then getting paid 13k/yr to fly 100hrs+ a month in a turboprop 10 legs a day. This is NOTHING new, the only reason everyone is moaning about it now is because there is no movement through the regionals to a major.

 

[insomniac99]

my understanding of the situation is this:

The original purpose of regionals was to provide service between hubs and outstations where the use of mainline aircraft was not economically viable. (If it were my decision I wouldn't have given these routes up.)

The problem as I see it is this:

Regionals are now providing service between major cities. I highly doubt this is what the mainline pilots who gave up scope intended.

When regional's fly what have traditionally been mainline routes you are replacing mainline crews. The mainline management is not stupid, they know they are getting these routes serviced at a fraction of the price. hence you are cutting your throats in the long run.

All I have been saying is that if you guys don't stop thinking about what the future could hold and start worrying about the situation you are in right now, this mess is just going to get worse.

 

[Hobit]

TROLL ALERT!

This message is hidden because insomniac99 is on your ignore list.

 

[Hawkster54]

Regional/commuter payscales have ALWAYS been ridiculously low. Talk to any pilot who has started out years ago and they talk about PAYING for training, and then getting paid 13k/yr to fly 100hrs+ a month in a turboprop 10 legs a day. This is NOTHING new, the only reason everyone is moaning about it now is because there is no movement through the regionals to a major.

You IDIOT! It wasn't until after 9/11 that people started considering the regionals "career companies". PAYING for training? If I were those people, I wouldn't disclose that info @ a job interview. Paying for traing is blacklist worthy, that's no secret. Also, Why is there no movement throught the regionals to a Mainline carrier? Hmmm as long as the regionals will do the job for less then the Mainline, carriers will continue to shrink and regionals will grow.

Pretty soon the only flying that will pay anything will be will be international mainline. How many "I paid for my training" Mesa scumbags will be doing that flying? They've brought new meaning to the word SCAB. Way to go! Good luck erasing that from your 10 yr history.

 

[insomniac99]

TROLL ALERT!

This message is hidden because insomniac99 is on your ignore list.

just because you don't like what I'm saying does not make me a troll. why don't you guys bring some facts to the table and make me understand your point of view

 

[414Flyer]

WRONG. Even when major airline pilots were paid well, regional pilots were paid terrible. Only thing that changed were the engines on the side. FOr that you can blame mainline pilots for giving up their scope. Any major airline pilot that came from a regional was paid crap. Just because it was a T-prop doesn't change that fact.

However keep in mind that the capacity of planes flying now in at the regionals, used to be at the majors. While 20 years ago regionals paid crap too, the flying could have been in a Navajo, or a B99 if one was lucky, maybe a Shorts too.

Now it is 70-90 seat jets. Too many people think the size of the jet counts as part of the income somehow. I could be happy flying a C172 for good pay in a good location. Its just an airplane, not a key to happiness.

 

[insomniac99]

However keep in mind that the capacity of planes flying now in at the regionals, used to be at the majors. While 20 years ago regionals paid crap too, the flying could have been in a Navajo, or a B99 if one was lucky, maybe a Shorts too.

Now it is 70-90 seat jets. Too many people think the size of the jet counts as part of the income somehow. I could be happy flying a C172 for good pay in a good location. Its just an airplane, not a key to happiness.

Thank You!

 

[Hawkster54]

TROLL ALERT!

This message is hidden because insomniac99 is on your ignore list.

Wha't wrong? Are you scared you might put a bullet in your head because your finally starting to see that there's a bigger picture?

How about SCAB ALERT?

I'm sure Insomniac99 is going to sleep fine knowing that he is not a contributing factor in this industry's downfall.

 

[Hawkster54]

However keep in mind that the capacity of planes flying now in at the regionals, used to be at the majors. While 20 years ago regionals paid crap too, the flying could have been in a Navajo, or a B99 if one was lucky, maybe a Shorts too.

Now it is 70-90 seat jets. Too many people think the size of the jet counts as part of the income somehow. I could be happy flying a C172 for good pay in a good location. Its just an airplane, not a key to happiness.

I second that!

 

[insomniac99]

414flyer and Hawkster, PM me if you ever get to the motor city, I'll buy the beer!

 

[Flyby1206]

However keep in mind that the capacity of planes flying now in at the regionals, used to be at the majors. While 20 years ago regionals paid crap too, the flying could have been in a Navajo, or a B99 if one was lucky, maybe a Shorts too.

Now it is 70-90 seat jets. Too many people think the size of the jet counts as part of the income somehow. I could be happy flying a C172 for good pay in a good location. Its just an airplane, not a key to happiness.

I agree with that statement, but think about the 70seat ATR turboprops or the 4 engine Avros that used to be flown by the regionals.

 

[Hawkster54]

dang, stop all your bitching. yeah we all know pay sucks when we start out, it gets better. the average doctor, lawyer, etc. all don't start out making +100k, it takes time, ask them-maybe you'll learn something. And don't say we are compared to bus drivers- maybe in your mind- smarten up fool. And what makes you think you deserve all this money so soon. These new pilots starting at regionals are making 70k within a couple of years after switching seats -all major captains are at least 130k to 250k. If you feel like your in such a bad industry- get the hell out because your life must suck being so miserable.

Tell me IMMELMAN, Who's upgrading after a couple of years? And don't say Great Lakes. Be careful how much cool-aid you drink because in the regionals, you still going to be left feeling very thirsty. I am very aware of what mgmt tells their new hires during INDOC, they say what they feel is necessary to keep employees motivated, smiling, upbeat, etc, etc,. Mgmt's job is easier when less FO's quit.

At least the Great Lakes pilots can get their 1000 pic turbine, a little extra time in the log book, and then a job at SWA, Jetblue, or Spirit, and in some cases UPS, or FedEx.

 

[insomniac99]

Hey Hawkster, how many of those airport shuttle bus drivers do you think would agree to a pay freeze in order to drive bigger/shinyer buses?

 

[Smarta$$]

However keep in mind that the capacity of planes flying now in at the regionals, used to be at the majors. While 20 years ago regionals paid crap too, the flying could have been in a Navajo, or a B99 if one was lucky, maybe a Shorts too.

Now it is 70-90 seat jets. Too many people think the size of the jet counts as part of the income somehow. I could be happy flying a C172 for good pay in a good location. Its just an airplane, not a key to happiness.

Actually, t-props have had 19 to 70 seats for along time. I totally agree that we are WAY underpaid. But this is no different than what has always been the case. At least you don't have to PFT at regionals anymore. We fly what mainline pilots give away. If they give me a prop, I fly it. If they give me a jet I will fly that too. If it were up too me jets would be mainline only. But they gave them away.

The problem is that regional pilots have no leverage. If you don't fly for a competitive wage, than skywest or republic will get it from you. It is almost impossible to take a meaningful stand right now. Between RFP's, NMB, BK judges and politicians regional pilots have no power. Mainline pilots control the scope and there for they have much more power. For mainline pilots to expect that regional pay will go from total crap to something better just because they give us a 50 seat jet instead of a 34 seat T-prop is expecting the imposible.

We get paid more to fly a 50 seat jet than we do to fly a 34 seat T-prop. You were not calling the T-prop drivers scabs before the scope slide because many of you were regional T-prop drivers before you got to the mainline. What is the difference?

Scope erosion caused the problem we are in. Regional pay was already bad before we had jets. Now we get paid more to fly jets. I don't see the point when our pay went down to take your jets. It was always bad.

Give us some power and we will do the right thing. As for now, we do not have the power. The company I work for has been negotiating a new pilot contract for almost two years. We are demanding better pay and benefits. But management will not negotiate in good faith. We are doing everything we can do within the law, but they still have the upper hand. WE HAVE NO POWER. You can say that we can quit, but where is the better opportunity? There is nothing better out there for us right now?

Quit blaming us for the situation we have been put in.

 

[Smarta$$]

Tell me IMMELMAN, Who's upgrading after a couple of years? And don't say Great Lakes. Be careful how much cool-aid you drink because in the regionals, you still going to be left feeling very thirsty. I am very aware of what mgmt tells their new hires during INDOC, they say what they feel is necessary to keep employees motivated, smiling, upbeat, etc, etc,. Mgmt's job is easier when less FO's quit.

At least the Great Lakes pilots can get their 1000 pic turbine, a little extra time in the log book, and then a job at SWA, Jetblue, or Spirit, and in some cases UPS, or FedEx.

Last upgrade at Pinnacle was a april 05 hire. 20 months to make 65k+. Still pretty pathetic wages however. There is another 30 or so upgrades next month that could go down to 14-18 months possibly.

 

[Hawkster54]

Hey Hawkster, how many of those airport shuttle bus drivers do you think would agree to a pay freeze in order to drive bigger/shinyer buses?

Those new hires better think twice before they tipp the airport shuttle drivers, those guys/gals are making better money driving those ricketty busses! Who would've thought with the hat and those shiny wings, one would think they're raking in the dough! What an act!

You'd think it would be a little tense in the cockpit. The newbies played a large part in F'ing the veteran capt's out of their mainline jobs.

 

[Hobit]

Wha't wrong? Are you scared you might put a bullet in your head because your finally starting to see that there's a bigger picture?

How about SCAB ALERT?

I'm sure Insomniac99 is going to sleep fine knowing that he is not a contributing factor in this industry's downfall.

OK, tell us what the definition of scab is. I think you are using it incorrectly

He's a troll that hijacked a thread.

Nice job.

And the second I get a better job outside of 121, you can bet I'll be there.


Have you flown 121?

 

[Smarta$$]

Those new hires better think twice before they tipp the airport shuttle drivers, those guys/gals are making better money driving those ricketty busses! Who would've thought with the hat and those shiny wings, one would think they're raking in the dough! What an act!

You'd think it would be a little tense in the cockpit. The newbies played a large part in F'ing the veteran capt's out of their mainline jobs.

Seriously, you are such a tool. You really don't understand what is gone on in the airline industry. New hires are accepting a job that is open because of mainline pilots voting their jobs away. More specifically the senior mainline pilots.

 

[insomniac99]

Actually, t-props have had 19 to 70 seats for along time. I totally agree that we are WAY underpaid. But this is no different than what has always been the case. At least you don't have to PFT at regionals anymore. We fly what mainline pilots give away. If they give me a prop, I fly it. If they give me a jet I will fly that too. If it were up too me jets would be mainline only. But they gave them away.

The problem is that regional pilots have no leverage. If you don't fly for a competitive wage, than skywest or republic will get it from you. It is almost impossible to take a meaningful stand right now. Between RFP's, NMB, BK judges and politicians regional pilots have no power. Mainline pilots control the scope and there for they have much more power. For mainline pilots to expect that regional pay will go from total crap to something better just because they give us a 50 seat jet instead of a 34 seat T-prop is expecting the imposible.

We get paid more to fly a 50 seat jet than we do to fly a 34 seat T-prop. You were not calling the T-prop drivers scabs before the scope slide because many of you were regional T-prop drivers before you got to the mainline. What is the difference?

Scope erosion caused the problem we are in. Regional pay was already bad before we had jets. Now we get paid more to fly jets. I don't see the point when our pay went down to take your jets. It was always bad.

Give us some power and we will do the right thing. As for now, we do not have the power. The company I work for has been negotiating a new pilot contract for almost two years. We are demanding better pay and benefits. But management will not negotiate in good faith. We are doing everything we can do within the law, but they still have the upper hand. WE HAVE NO POWER. You can say that we can quit, but where is the better opportunity? There is nothing better out there for us right now?

Quit blaming us for the situation we have been put in.

I agree with you.

The only way out is for everyone to get on the same page. ALPA needs to unify and set a minimum acceptable wage for FO and CA, and establish scope at some level and then stick to it. Of course these changes would needs to be accepted across the board. but this is just a pipe dream.

 

[Hobit]

Hawkster are you just slinging gear and flaps, and cleaning honeypots as a first job out of instructing? Thats all I get from your profile. Not meant as an insult.

Have you been a 121 pilot?


Honest questions to guage your posts.

 

[insomniac99]

OK, tell us what the definition of scab is. I think you are using it incorrectly

He's a troll that hijacked a thread.

Nice job.

And the second I get a better job outside of 121, you can bet I'll be there.


Have you flown 121?

WAA WAA

I did not hijack this thread, I responded to what CMI was saying

you are correct, you are not a scab, a scab must cross a picket line or work for less than the established wage, it is not your fault that the established pay sucks.

there are plenty of better jobs out there than 121, keep looking and you will find one.

Who cares if Hawkster has ever flown 121.

 

[414Flyer]

I didnt lay blame, nor call anyone a scab. As a trend, sizes of planes found at the regionals has gone up in the past 20 years. Examples outside of the norm, do not change that reality that regionals are flying planes that were normally found at majors in the past.

You are forgetting about range too. 70 seat turboprops were used at times, but they were not being halfway across the country, like some jets at the regionals are now. They were used to bring people to mainline hubs as a feeder, not as a substitute.

This isnt about a strike, so how does this involve scabs? Maybe thats from a different thread about people crossing picket lines that you are getting mixed up with

The majors used to fly turboprops too, and captains on those in the early 70s got very close pay to todays captains, not even adjusting for inflation. People on here mentioned convair captains getting 40Kish at that time, when majors like Frontier, Allegheny and Piedmont flew them.

It is is a complex issue, with entities like ALPA I think being partly responsible. I dont have a dog in this fight, I dont fly at the airlines. The couple of times I applied at a regional, I never followed up on my resumes, its wasnt that important to get paid that little to me. I have found other niches that pay well, and they are out there. I flew a scientific equipped twin turboprop last summer for 12K a month (pay plus perdiem) overseas, and right now get half that in a king air and I havent flown in a month

There is nothing wrong with any pilot trying to make more money though, anyone who says a pilot should not be trying to make additional money is fooling themselves. Look at all those major airline pilots who have been on the street since 2001 that were making good money, or those who have lost their retirement. Never assume that you have financial security, because you dont. Anything you can put aside for the future, is good.

Personally, I buy/resell electronics and computer stuff. I dont make a killing, but a couple hundred a month extra is good. I watch internet message boards where people post deals and I look for things I can make a few bucks on. I also have used my pay from projects to get house mortgages, and I have a small mountain cabin in NM that is rented out, and I have a house I just bought in Boise that I have roommates help pay for.

 

[Hawkster54]

OK, tell us what the definition of scab is. I think you are using it incorrectly

He's a troll that hijacked a thread.

Nice job.

And the second I get a better job outside of 121, you can bet I'll be there.


Have you flown 121?

scab
Function: noun
1 : a worker who refuses to join a labor union
2 : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended
3 : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike : [SIZE=-1]STRIKE BREAKER[/SIZE]
4 : one who works for less than industry wage standards or on nonunion terms
5 : A crust that forms over a healing wound, consisting of dried blood, plasma, and other secretions.


Like I said before today's regional pilots have brought new meaning to the word scab. But still, Webster is pretty close.

What difference does it make if i've ever flown part 121? There's no relevence. What, does it make my statements less credible? Hell, the airport shuttle driver could say the things I've been saying and he'd still be right.

Are you saying your BETTER than the airport shuttle bus driver?

 

[Hawkster54]

empasis on NEW MEANING to the word scab

 

[Hobit]

scab
Function: noun
1 : a worker who refuses to join a labor union
2 : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended
3 : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike : [SIZE=-1]STRIKE BREAKER[/SIZE]
4 : one who works for less than industry wage standards or on nonunion terms
5 : A crust that forms over a healing wound, consisting of dried blood, plasma, and other secretions.


Like I said before today's regional pilots have brought new meaning to the word scab. But still, Webster is pretty close.

What difference does it make if i've ever flown part 121? There's no relevence. What, does it make my statements less credible? Hell, the airport shuttle driver could say the things I've been saying and he'd still be right.

Are you saying your BETTER than the airport shuttle bus driver?

Frankly YES, your lack of experience in 121 ops is showing and your opinions are not based in knowledge, just conjecture.

Interesting to some, maybe you can baffle your friends and family but boring to those with first hand knowledge.

So how does the Hawer fly? I mean compared to and C/ERJ, Dash, J-stream, Saab, 1900? What... don't know????? Oh.....

What speed does your boss/captain fly his approches at?