Pinnacle Buying Colgan

[Rez O. Lewshun]

. Only bad things I have heard about ALPA came from FAA attorneys and Ford and Harrison attorneys who LOST......

Regrettably it also comes from its own misinformed and particpation lacking members....

 

[dingo222]

I wasnt calling it flamebait. I think both pilot groups realize that this could either go as they say it will go, or it could get ugly real quick. Both pilot groups are stuck now, and colgan has no representation.

 

[MACH-TUCK]

Colgan needs to start an ALPA drive NOW!!! For the sake of both sides.

 

[greedypilot]

Colgan needs to start an ALPA drive NOW!!! For the sake of both sides.

Show me the dotted line and I will sign

 

[DoinTime]

Both pilot groups are stuck now, and colgan has no representation.

The PCL pilot group is not stuck. We have legal recourse, millions in cash, and an army of lawyers to defend our contract. Unless the Colgan group organizes quick you'll just be along for the ride.

 

[SELCAL checks]

struck work?????????? I agree with what you are saying, but dont get ahead of yourself. Colgan wont be flying pcl routes with the saabs anytime soon, and we arent rated on the rj.

The interpretation of our CBA's scope clause is that all flying performed on behalf of Pinnacle Airlines Corp (the holding company) is to be performed by Pinnacle Airlines pilots. Technically, the flying that you all are doing today is in violation of our contract, since the purchase of Colgan was complete this morning. I'm sure ALPA Legal is busy today.

It is a little premature to bring it up. However, if Pinnacle pilots were to strike... then any flying performed by or for Pinnacle Airlines Corporation would be considered struck work. IMHO, this is a situation that may rear it's ugly head a lot sooner than you all might think.

If you look at this from a strictly contractual point of view, you are doing our flying now. We would like nothing more than to bring you guys onboard as ALPA represented Pinnacle Airlines pilots. This would protect you, and it would allow us all to move forward in contract negotiations to seek a fair and
equitable collective bargaining agreement with Pinnacle Airlines Corporation.

9E management has been desperately trying to seek relief from our scope clause for some time now. This is evident in them seeking (and failing) to obtain a second certificate. Also, their current contract proposal to us includes a relaxed scope clause that would allow flying to go to other carriers. They know we won't cave... so they decided to buy another airline and take their chances in court.

You guys need to get some representation ASAP. Oh, and welcome to Pinnacle.

 

[MACH-TUCK]

Show me the dotted line and I will sign

Im sure there are plenty of ALPA reps reading this thread that can get you in contact with the right people.

You might be signing the dotted line before you know it.

 

[Kaman]

You know all this talk know of Colgan flying technically being "PCL" flying is a bunch of horse dung. First of all, we are not members of ANY union and our current contracts with any mainline codeshares were awarded to CJC and flown with our airplanes and on our certificate. So, don't even think for one second that you are going to use the word "SCAB" and "COLGAN" in the same sentence. If you want to do that, then meet me in the parking lot at IAD and pack a friggin lunch, because I am not going to hear that crap thrown around.
The Colgan Air pilot group is a great group of people that routinely get the job done under very difficult conditions and often at the hands of our own support and managment groups. We were'nt privvy to any of the pre-sale negotiations and simply put on the uniform and go to work. Any comparisons that any of you Pinnacle guys that aren't old enough to have a hair on your ass best shut the FUUK UP.
Yeah, this sounds like a very acrimonious and antagonistic post. BUT, and I don't represent the opinion or position of the Colgan pilot group, but I damned sure won't let anyone come here in this setting and try to make any pleas, ultimatums or what have you to join your union so that we aren't "violating your scope" or as mentioned earlier:
The interpretation of our CBA's scope clause is that all flying performed on behalf of Pinnacle Airlines Corp (the holding company) is to be performed by Pinnacle Airlines pilots. Technically, the flying that you all are doing today is in violation of our contract, since the purchase of Colgan was complete this morning. I'm sure ALPA Legal is busy today.
If we want to join the bloody union we will do so on our own, and not be intimidated into doing so. You guys need to worry about your own contract, your own flying thats already on your operating certificate. If as I suspect PCL, Inc. wants to operate Pinnacle Airlines as the RJ carrier with a union and Colgan as the turboprop non-union airline then thats the way it's going to be. And, never shall the two meet in the middle. Any flying that comes down the road later, or should PCL decide to put CRJs (heaven forbid we get those underpowered pieces of crap) on our certificate than I guess we'll cross that road when we get to it.
BOTTOM-LINE to the PCL ALPA MEC...Don't use intimidation or scare tactics to get Colgan pilots and especially the top 50-75 seniority pilots to listen to your crap.

 

[vectorvictor]

Do I still have to go to work tomorrow?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Kaman-

Not sure where you got your info? from a PCL MEC source? If it is from the message boards then I question the source.. and use of it.

Fact is an Air Line Pilot is an Air Line Pilot. There is no pilot better than the other. That goes from UAL to DAL to MAG to PCL to Colgan to Commutair.

In many ways it takes much more to fly a turbo prop than a jet. The Colgan pilots are one of the best...

We are all the same regardless of union affiliation.

Unified and of Course Rezfully Yours....

 

[Kaman]

Rez,
I'm with ya', I don't think that there is any difference between pilots for the varying airlines either. We all just put on a uniform, go to work, try to do our best and call it a day. I'm basically referring to the undertones of some of the posts here in this thread that would seem to have a air of "your either with us or against us". I don't particularly respond to well to that kind of union strong-arm tactics. Whether there is any validity to the facts of the matter i.e., PCL scope, CBA. Mine was strictly an at the moment emotional rant. However, I'll stand up for my fellow Colgan pilots in the event things get ugly.

 

[redflyer65]

Kaman, No one meant this as a personal attack against you. This going going to be a simple play by PCL management to try and end run around our scope section. The section is pretty clear that ANY holding company flying will belong to the PCL pilot list. We hope to win this in Federal court soon and bring ALL Colgan pilots into the fold with us. We need to work together against this kind of power grab. This is what PCL management is all about unfortunately.

 

[Tram]

Rumor has it Crapex is next on the list..

However, if it happens, I'm sure our 13.47 pilots will be hard to digest..

 

[SELCAL checks]

Kaman,

I didn't mean to raise your blood pressure. If you will reread my post, you will see that I wrote, "If you look at this from a strictly contractual point of view, you are doing our flying now."

This issues that this acquisition raises are contractual ones between Pinnacle and 9E pilots. You've been minding your own business, going to work, and putting your pants on one leg at a time just like everyone else. I understand where you are coming from. That's not the point I was trying to address.

I'm not a union rep, I'm just a line pilot. If there was an open line of communication between the two pilot groups right now, I think you would discover that we hold your best interests at heart. This is an emotional day for the two pilot groups, and perhaps some comments have seemed like scare tactics. Having a union on your property, namely ALPA, would be beneficial to you for a number of reasons. We view you all as brothers in the fee-for-departure arena, and now you fall into the Pinnacle family. You've just been adopted, and we've been living the nightmare for years... we're just trying to offer you some advice. It's like reminding your buddy to make sure he wraps it before he heads home with the slutty chick from the bar. We want you all to be protected. If you all only knew the things that management tries to pull around here... I can't imagine what this place would be like without a union.

The future will be interesting. Depending on the outcome of the scope greivance, you all (A) may become 9E pilots. If we lose that battle, then (B) Nonconnah will be free to grow your company at their pleasure... all the while imposing rock bottom industry wages and benefits. You guys have the benefit of the doubt right now, but if option B begins to play out, and if you all don't bring in a union to stop it... then you all become Go-Jets II.

 

[Kaman]

I'm calmed down now, I think we (Colgan) naturally fear what our unknown future might hold for us. I don't hold any grudge against anyone at PCL or any other airline for that matter, but I sure am worried about whether our bases will change, work rules changing, etc... My biggest fear is seeing a 50 or 70 seat turboprop show up and getting less than what PCL guys get flying the jet. My gut feeling is that PCL management has a "plan" for Colgan/Pinnacle. These people didn't buy CJC without some plan for the future. Be it access to codeshares, slots, equipment, infrastructure and last but not least non-union (cheaper) labor. Let's give it 6 months and see what happens. If I offended any PCL pilots I sincerly apologize for my earlier rant.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[BirdCatcher]

Here are my thoughts. The Colgan family is looking out for their interests to make a return on their investment. They understand an airline is either growing or dieing, and they knew they don't have the capital to grow on their own. Pinnacle management is looking out for the interests of their shareholders and their bonus checks. Pinnacle ALPA looks out for the interests of their pilot group. WHO is looking out for the interests of the Colgan pilots/mechanics/flight attendants? George Dubya? Do we want to be in this situation? I know the press releases and management keep saying, "We want to keep it as it is." Looking back at history, how many times has that actually happened in a situation such as this? That may be the business plan today, but this is a fluid business and tomorrow things may change. Us Colgan employees need to plan accordingly, just in case. We can't be reactive, it will be too late by then. We Colgan pilots flying out of our outstation bases on our EAS have been insulated from the labor problems plagueing the industry today. Not any more, things have changed, we've joined the "real world", and we must adapt accordingly. Does that mean union? I don't know, but we need to come together, look at our options and decide together. This could be a great deal for Colgan and Pinnacle, and I hope it is, though we have to stand up and acknowledge things are not always as they seem.

PS Save Leroy

 

[Lear70]

I don't have my contract handy (it's in a box somewhere), but I don't think the contract specifically says "Pinnacle Airlines CORP", I'm pretty sure it says "Pinnacle Airlines", no "Corp" in the wording of the opening page, scope section, or signing page.

That means it's open to legal debate,,, which several of us have been waiting for a long time, knowing good 'ole Uncle Phil was just SO committed to "simply the best".

Kaman, I don't think he meant it as strong-arm tactics, just letting you know it could get very ugly very quickly.

He's also correct in that ALPA legal is probably moving quickly to file paperwork with the company that they consider Colgan now "technically" as a part of Pinnacle Airlines, and therefore the Colgan pilots (and they're flying) should automatically become members of the PCL ALPA.

Not trying to post flamebait, I simply know how ALPA works and I'm 100% certain the push for an integration of the Colgan pilots will come sooner rather than later.

How PT responds will be your BIGGEST indication of whether the company intends to use this to circumvent PCL Scope.

If PT and company say, "Sure, they're absolutely Pinnacle pilots and we'll get the ball rolling on seniority integration, etc ASAP", then I'll be glad to say I was wrong and that maybe Corporate isn't the den of thieves I've always believed them to be.

However, if PCL management says, "Nope, we're maintaining it completely separate, it's not Pinnacle Airlines, it's Colgan and staying Colgan", then we know what's coming next.

Don't worry about the whole SCAB thing, this has a LONG way to go and I'm certain if PT and group take option "B" above, members of the PCL MEC will approach your pilot group openly and in a completely non-threatening manner and try to start an organization drive.

Seriously, I know EVERY SINGLE MEC member very well, and I can tell you NO ONE will try to strong-arm you, other than SR and maybe one other that will be out-voted by the majority of great guys on the MEC.

Good luck to everyone there!

 

[CoATP]

The 9E contract scope clause calls for the flying for Pinnacle Airlines or its successor to be done by 9E pilots. Holding became the successor when it "purchased" Airlines. Thus we fly for Holdings. This is fodder for lawyers and I'm sure Nonconnah would like to disagree. As for pay ... look at Frontier which started Lynx (it's own regional) to fly Q400's and pays less than 9E.

Remember the Slogan at 9E "Simply the Best ... but less than average."

As Elmer Fudd might say ...Be afwaid be vewwy vewwy afwaid. If we don't stick together the only choice will be vaseline or plain.

 

[Kaman]

I think that what you don't understand about Colgan is only the top 50 pilots have been here more than 6 years. As someone said, "Colgan is like a Part 121 Air Net type operation". People stay here, get their 2 types and a couple of types and move on. This has been going on since 1992 when Chuck senior and his son bought the operating certificate back from the failed Presidential Airways.
Having said all that you are going to see anywhere from outright militant attitudes of wanting to have ALPA show up tommorow complete with lanyards to total apathy. Of course, this will be like a bell curve with alot of people just waiting too see which way to jump. If the turboprop flying remains with the CJC side then I think you will have a non-issue. Looking at your payscales and our's. Can it get much worse? I think that both sides have a vested interest, but Colgan pilots are the one's with the least leverage and no protection. There is nothing to stop the new ownership from completely scrapping our way of operating (i.e., outbasing and short upgrades). If a whipsaw takes place, than it won't be on Colgan's pilot group. We are the pawns in this high stakes game of airline monopoly where the stakes aren't play money, but the careers and families of the pilots caught in the middle. Let's hope that management has some respect for the hard-work that we put into this job. If not, to hell with them and I'm going to go drive a truck.

 

[redflyer65]

Lear, It doesn't say Pinnacle CORP. As we all know there wasn't a company called that when the contract was signed. But the wording is in a successorship.

Section 1.E. This agreement will be binding upon any successor or merged Company or companies or any successor in the control of the Company, regardless of the nature of the transfer of control.

then check this

Section 1.F.1. In the event of the merger or consolidation of the Company with another airline which affects the seniority rights of pilots covered by this Agreement, provisions will be made for integration of seniority lists in a fair and equitable manner.

other items

Section 1.B.1. All present and future flying of any form performed by or for the companywill be performed by pilots on the pilots' system seniority list.

Section 1.B.4 The company will not create or control another airline for the purpose of transferring the assest of the company to such airline...