Will SWA and AT truly merge?

[Richard Gozinya]

The beer offer still stands, btw. :beer:

Absolutely, I will continue to go out of my way to tell every Air Tran guy I come in contact with what he/she will be receiving under our rules. That is the Southwest way. I have gone completely out of my way to do that. When I rode your jump seat from DAL to BWI and back last week, everyone went out of their way to make me accommodate me. Like all else, it is a two way street! Even here.

Yes, when the dust settles, we will be on the same team. Just like GK said during the first days of this deal, until it is completed, we are competitors. We have to look out for our OWN best interests. Just like I expressed to you my disgust over remarks made here a few days ago, Atl will be a domicile soon enough. Full of Southwest Pilots from both of the companies. Those pilots will elect reps who will be on the BOD. In the next 10 years or so, pilots from the company formerly known as Air Tran will integrate into all of the committees. Their influence will have direct effect over all of our lives. Until this is done, we all will be looking out to protect our OWN best interests.

The protocol between our M&A comms will be coming out in the next few days and it says that mediation will come before arbitration. Arbitration will be a board of 3. Talks begin in Jan.

 

[Richard Gozinya]

When Air Tran becomes a wholey owned subsidiary, DFW won't exist any longer for you guys. All the flying will come through Love Field, as will our flying will start going through ATL.

 

[texman]

C'mon...no such thing as a loyal customer I don't care who you are. People and businesses are loyal only to the bottom dollar. Many of the people you think are loyal will be on other carriers tomorrow. No one likes getting screwed or paying more...the service provided at southwest is better but not justified just to fly the name. The reason people fly swa is for the low price!

Southwest has for a very long time pulled a huge market share and been HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL for it. But it has outgrown that "PURITY" or as you identify an ideal "LOYALTY" phase.

Southwest overcharges in many markets...I have taken Airtran, American, and others over Southwest because they were CHEAPER...and the baggage fees still wouldn't come close....no NO LOYALTY!

I have no dog in this fight...but hopefully the merger will expand the low cost structure and bring the new company a huge amount of growth and longevity, and low cost competition....not domination of the market and increase in prices due to LESS COMPETITION.

Regards,

Tex

I respect what you are saying. In the big picture there is such thing as a loyal customer.

 

[scoreboardII]

DFW won't exist any longer for you guys.

Don't be to sure about that...

 

[malibuVride]

So let me get this straight...I'm hearing we don't get a JCBA and we don't get to be part of the transition agreement? What am I missing here? I thought our contract had requirements that had to be followed by successors or whatever! What's the deal?

 

[johnsonrod]

So let me get this straight...I'm hearing we don't get a JCBA and we don't get to be part of the transition agreement? What am I missing here? I thought our contract had requirements that had to be followed by successors or whatever! What's the deal?

I would ask your reps about that. That doesn't sound right. You have your own contract at AT, and being merged in with someone else, you should have a transition agreement for protection. Also, you want a JCBA so you aren't the B-scale group in the end. Watch out!

 

[OldManPilot]

LMAO...not only do you think that 6 yr. AAI guys should keep their CA seat over 9 year SWA guys (at least it's somewhere in the universe of plausibility), now you are saying your "senior" F/O's (what is that, 5 yrs?) should upgrade ahead of senior SWA F/O's with 4 yrs. more longevity?!? Ladies and gentleman, Elvis has left the building! (and he took common sense with him when he went)

Amazed and Confused,
PapaWoody

Pappa... I totally agree. There is no way after the agreement no matter what base your at, the top F/O gets the upgrade... it doesn't matter what base they are located, it should be a bid process. If your top man and you bid 717 CPT in ATL... BINGO.. you get your choice. Please don't think all our AT guys are this silly. These are the .5%ers

 

[luv2fly]

I would ask your reps about that. That doesn't sound right. You have your own contract at AT, and being merged in with someone else, you should have a transition agreement for protection. Also, you want a JCBA so you aren't the B-scale group in the end. Watch out!

You heard right, its the difference in an acquisition and a merger. Also, throw in that this isn't 2 ALPA carriers and that it really isn't a "plug and play" type combination. A huge difference in size, pay, longevity, qol...etc. so its not really a combination of equals (and i don't mean that as a low blow) jmho.

 

[Sy-bill]

Also, you want a JCBA so you aren't the B-scale group in the end. Watch out!

As I have been saying.....arbitration is not good for the Airtran folks. SWA will benefit more from arbitration.

You heard right, its the difference in an acquisition and a merger. Also, throw in that this isn't 2 ALPA carriers and that it really isn't a "plug and play" type combination. A huge difference in size, pay, longevity, qol...etc. so its not really a combination of equals

Winner, winner chicken dinner!

 

[dicko]

You heard right, its the difference in an acquisition and a merger. Also, throw in that this isn't 2 ALPA carriers and that it really isn't a "plug and play" type combination. A huge difference in size, pay, longevity, qol...etc. so its not really a combination of equals (and i don't mean that as a low blow) jmho.

No.

AirTran MEC Officers and Merger Committee have been in Dallas for the last week . They began talks on the Transition Agreement on Monday.

 

[luv2fly]

No.

AirTran MEC Officers and Merger Committee have been in Dallas for the last week . They began talks on the Transition Agreement on Monday.

You need to check your facts, they didn't talk transition at all. They talked process agreement only.

Transition talks will be between SWA and SWAPA.

 

[PCL_128]

You need to check your facts, they didn't talk transition at all. They talked process agreement only.

False.

 

[Ty Webb]

You need to check your facts, they didn't talk transition at all. They talked process agreement only.

Transition talks will be between SWA and SWAPA.

So many "experts", so few facts.

Both teams are in Dallas
The MC is negotiating process
The NC is negotiating Transition (and laterJCBA)

Transition and JCBA will require signatures from all 4 parties (both unions and both companies)

SLI to be approved by SWA pilots and by AT MEC (due to ALPA rules, SLI not sent out to AT pilot group for vote).

 

[BlueBlood]

Well, Mister PCL, how do you know that? Were you there?

 

[BlueBlood]

Ty,

SWA is not ALPA, the only CBA will be the SWAPA CBA.....correct? JCBA is an ALPA thingy. Being former DALPA, I know that much.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty,

SWA is not ALPA, the only CBA will be the SWAPA CBA.....correct? JCBA is an ALPA thingy. Being former DALPA, I know that much.

You may be right, they may not call it a "Joint CBA" but I believe the concept is the same- certain sections of the current SWAPA CBA would have to be modified to reflect the changes.

Regds,
TW

 

[scoreboardII]

certain sections of the current SWAPA CBA would have to be modified to reflect the changes.

Uh, no it won't, except to maybe add a 717 payscale.

 

[Ty Webb]

Uh, no it won't, except to maybe add a 717 payscale.

Really, Chief:

Well, I guess you're right and the SWAPA folks and ALPA folks are wrong when they say that specific sections of SWAPA's CBA will be renegotiated.

All hail FI's newest "expert", Scoreboard II. Let me guess what happened to Scoreboard I . . .

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[scoreboardII]

Yes, Ty, lets make personal attacks. Sorry, I can't be an FI expert until I hit 4000 posts...

So oh wise one, what change will befall the SWAPA CBA. I'm waiting....

 

[johnsonrod]

As I have been saying.....arbitration is not good for the Airtran folks. SWA will benefit more from arbitration.



Winner, winner chicken dinner!

What? And SWAPA determining the SLI is better? RIIIIIIGHT! What would the Frontier guys say about that? Arbitration will be GREAT for AT, and not good for the SWA pilots. It can only help the AT pilots' position, and since both are profitable LCCs, I predict AT will do just fine, along with a 40% payraise just to get up to SWA rates (FO). AT brings a lot to the merger too, and that will be seen by the arbitrator I am sure. (and I think you know that too Mr. Chicken Dinner)

 

[johnsonrod]

Uh, no it won't, except to maybe add a 717 payscale.

If that is the only thing that changes, then that will also benefit all of the AT pilots. I am sure the 717 rates will be very close to the 737 rates (as big as the 735 in size), and all of those 717 pilots will hit the lottery too. Good for them! No B-scale will be allowed, to preserve that "culture" of yours.

 

[scoreboardII]

I think the 717 rate will be the 737 rate.

Still waiting on Ty to post the draconian changes he see's as required by the almighty ALPA on the SWAPA CBA.

 

[redflyer65]

Scoreboard is right. SWAPA still has leverage on what the 717 rate will be.

It's a pretty broad range how that could turn out. I too think the Airtran pilots would do better in the long run with an agreement outside of arbitration, or at least get as close as possible.

When an arbitor looks at a Airtran windfall in pay and QOL and SW pilots getting nothing, he's gonna even that out. No doubt. It would be a pretty serious roll of the dice in my option.

 

[johnsonrod]

Scoreboard is right. SWAPA still has leverage on what the 717 rate will be.

It's a pretty broad range how that could turn out. I too think the Airtran pilots would do better in the long run with an agreement outside of arbitration, or at least get as close as possible.

When an arbitor looks at a Airtran windfall in pay and QOL and SW pilots getting nothing, he's gonna even that out. No doubt. It would be a pretty serious roll of the dice in my option.

You don't do the payrate in arbitration. You do the SLI in arbitration, AFTER you get a joint contract. And I recall someone stating the arbitrators for the Delta and Northwest merger didn't take the pay rates into consideration, and the NWA guys got a 30% pay raise too. But, of course you don't want to go to arbitration because it will be an unknown for you guys too. There is just no way the AT guys will agree to go without arbitration, because regardless it will be a win win for them, higher pay and then better than a staple SLI. And since they can't get a staple anyway due to that Bond/McKaskil law, I think they will do pretty darn well. I think you know that too.

 

[slaquer5]

Scoreboard is right. SWAPA still has leverage on what the 717 rate will be.

It's a pretty broad range how that could turn out. I too think the Airtran pilots would do better in the long run with an agreement outside of arbitration, or at least get as close as possible.

When an arbitor looks at a Airtran windfall in pay and QOL and SW pilots getting nothing, he's gonna even that out. No doubt. It would be a pretty serious roll of the dice in my option.

That goes for the SWA pilots also. There is nothing more the rest of this industry would like to see than, SWA/AT fighting like USair. The A/T pilots are going to have a hard enough time in ATL with all the HATE the DAL pilots will start to give them. I have never seen such hate for a company, until I started to work at this place.

 

[Cometman]

What? And SWAPA determining the SLI is better? RIIIIIIGHT! What would the Frontier guys say about that? Arbitration will be GREAT for AT, and not good for the SWA pilots. It can only help the AT pilots' position, and since both are profitable LCCs, I predict AT will do just fine, along with a 40% payraise just to get up to SWA rates (FO). AT brings a lot to the merger too, and that will be seen by the arbitrator I am sure. (and I think you know that too Mr. Chicken Dinner)

Nice try. You need to remember you are just a large regional airline. Nothing more and nothing less. Take what you can get and be happy.

 

[redflyer65]

So Johnson Rod, tell me exactly what Southwest pilots get with some kind
realitive seniority scenerio. (and don't start talking about gates at ATL, that's a company gain)

So this is what it looks like..

AAI - between 50-80% increase in pay, and big increases in QOL.
SW - nothing.

That's a pretty big difference to put in front of an arbiter.

I'm sorry I did mix the two events, the SLI and the new opener for the 717 rate. The rate will be hashed out been SWAPA and Southwest. It's a new type for SWAPA. Will the Airtran pilots have some input on that? Absolutely, but it won't be negotiated by ALPA.

Realistically speaking, I know there won't be a staple, but I bet there won't be realitive seniority either. It will most likely be something blended in the middle. I think that's the way it will turn out with or without arbitration, only time will tell.

 

[redflyer65]

The A/T pilots are going to have a hard enough time in ATL with all the HATE the DAL pilots will start to give them. I have never seen such hate for a company, until I started to work at this place.

I can understand that! I can't believe you guys have had to deal with both DL and the unbelievably hostile management.

 

[dicko]

Scoreboard is right. SWAPA still has leverage on what the 717 rate will be.

It's a pretty broad range how that could turn out. I too think the Airtran pilots would do better in the long run with an agreement outside of arbitration, or at least get as close as possible.

When an arbitor looks at a Airtran windfall in pay and QOL and SW pilots getting nothing, he's gonna even that out. No doubt. It would be a pretty serious roll of the dice in my option.

Hey Red,

Have you read any of the recent SLI's that have been arbitrated ? Pay differentials are considered either very minor items or not considered at all.

"Windfall" by definition relates to seniority and seat etc. I know what you consider the term to mean however the arbitrators think differently. Our opinion doesn't count.

All of the above has been stated ad nauseam.

Regarding the 717; Let me make sure I understand your plan. SWAPA is going to convince ATN ALPA to give you the SLI you want by threatening to make a lower payrate for the 717 ? An airplane that will hold the same number of seats as your 737-500. An airplane that will instantly grow SWA fleet by 85 hulls. If a SWA guy wants to upgrade on the 717 will they now move onto the lower scale ?

If blackmail is the game, then you need to think it through ....

 

[johnsonrod]

So Johnson Rod, tell me exactly what Southwest pilots get with some kind
realitive seniority scenerio. (and don't start talking about gates at ATL, that's a company gain)

So this is what it looks like..

AAI - between 50-80% increase in pay, and big increases in QOL.
SW - nothing.

That's a pretty big difference to put in front of an arbiter.

I'm sorry I did mix the two events, the SLI and the new opener for the 717 rate. The rate will be hashed out been SWAPA and Southwest. It's a new type for SWAPA. Will the Airtran pilots have some input on that? Absolutely, but it won't be negotiated by ALPA.

Realistically speaking, I know there won't be a staple, but I bet there won't be realitive seniority either. It will most likely be something blended in the middle. I think that's the way it will turn out with or without arbitration, only time will tell.

Look, I am not trying to get hostile here. I am just pointing out what has happened recently. As far as what you guys will get at Southwest, I bet it will be a raise, but not as big as the AT guys get. Same thing happened with the Delta and Northwest merger. A friend of mine over at Delta said he got a 5% raise with the joint contract initially, and then a 4% raise each year after that. The Northwest guys got a 30% raise right off the bat, and then 4% each year after that, after being joined with the joint contract. The Northwest guys did great paywise, and the SLI was pretty close to relative as I remember. But, those Delta pilots did not want a B-scale, and neither should you. What will you get out of the merger? How about a stronger company?

And you are right, ALPA won't be involved with the 717 payrate negotiations, SWAPA will. Hopefully they will put it very close to the 737, because you might be flying it left seat someday and you want high pay on that too, right? And you may be right about the SLI, but I don't think SWA will run away with it. I bet there will be some ratio involved. Good luck to you!