Will SWA and AT truly merge?

[oriondriver]

Da trannies keep saying what they bring to the table is 35 gates in ATL. this is true and it is probably the main reason for the acquisition, but once GH owns AAI what is to stop GH management from transferring 5-10 ATL gates to WN and all the future aircraft orders (for a nominal fee of course). Just asking because earlier in the thread I was called a straight from the Military no-nothing. of course that Military experience got me a job at both WN and FDX allowing me to bypass the second rate airlines.

Time to don my Nomex flight suit and wait for the flame.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Of course the whole SLI may be moot because SWA will certainly fail when the "hedges run out".

 

[Sy-bill]

Yes, I too find it odd that a guy that claims he has no vested interest has such a deep knowledge of Southwest's culture and history and such a partisan view point.

And I find it odd that one must only be a pilot and/or employee of SWA to understand something actually being taught in Masters programs at many universities across our great land.

1) The NMB LOVES precedent. They love it because it doesn't make it look like they're inventing anything. This goes double (or triple) if it was recent.

2) The last few pilot arbitrations has gone straight relative seniority. Strip the handwaving/justification away from the recent DAL/NWA merger, and that's what you got, down to a decimal point. Pay didn't matter, contracts didn't matter, merger or acquisition didn't matter, relative size didn't matter. AAA/AWA was essentially the same, with the exception of a cutout for the larger 330 aircraft. AAI/SWA has no such differential.

This is an acquisition without third party financing. This is completely different. In fact, with regards to M/B, unprecedented.

Relying upon what SWA management has considered important in the past, such as corprate culture, is also suspect

Really. Let me let the SWA guys chime in on this one. Is corporate culture no longer considered important at SWA?

Depending on some sleigh of hand corporate handwaving on SWAs part to avoid combining the pilot groups may help you sleep at night, but I would place odds against it.

Contrary to some isolated beliefs on the forum, nothing in this matter will effect my life. But being an objective observer, my money right now is with the SWA pilots experiencing gains in seniority when it is all said and done.

Your life is about to change dramatically! You're going to LUV it here!

And this feeling from an employee promoting their company is worth more than 300mil.

Airtran employees have a life changing opportunity in front of them. Seniority is the only concern the SWA pilots have. If you don't play ball, you otherwise you may be on the outside looking in. No matter what list you end up on.

 

[Kharma Police]

Da trannies keep saying what they bring to the table is 35 gates in ATL. this is true and it is probably the main reason for the acquisition, but once GH owns AAI what is to stop GH management from transferring 5-10 ATL gates to WN and all the future aircraft orders (for a nominal fee of course). Just asking because earlier in the thread I was called a straight from the Military no-nothing. of course that Military experience got me a job at both WN and FDX allowing me to bypass the second rate airlines.

Time to don my Nomex flight suit and wait for the flame.

Seriously, twenty pages on the subject and you ask these questions?

 

[rajflyboy]

Here is the Flight Info solution to fair and equitable. The Airtran pilots will get everything RAJ said except they will be awarded the top 7700 spots on the combined list. Since there are only 1700 AAI pilots the ALPA MEC will set up a new process to hire the remaining 6000 pilots. All SWA pilots will be have "preferential interviews" and may or may not be placed on the list. After the 7700 selected by the AAI ALPA MEC all remaining SWA pilots will furloughed and placed on a "possible recall list". This list will be used only if the AAI ALPA MEC runs out of people they want to hire.

I like this type of thinking!

Man those Air Tran people got the lucky ticket in Aviation >> A jumpset all the way to Oakland, CA

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

What most fail to understand here is that the SLI is between the AAI pilots and the SWA pilots, NOT between SWA or AAI (although they may be interested observers).

What SWA pays the SWA pilots, or what AAI pays the AAI pilots is a matter of contract between those two parties, and is not is not a player in the SLI proceedings.

When SWA starts paying AAI pilots SWA rates, then that takes nothing away from a single SWA pilot, but simply a cost of doing business, and not a zero sum.

However, when the SLI occurs between the two parties, it IS a zero sum game. For every spot you award one side or another, something is taken from the other side.

Under the RLA, a windfall describes such changes in seniority if it significantly changes a person's position, because it will be directly at the expense of another pilot, and that is a matter between the two parties.

But financial changes simply because one contract is more lucrative than another (the relative differental of which IS subject to debate, when quality of life items are included), are typically rendered as not germane because those changes do not affect pilot progression, bidding, vacation or any other seniority related item, and compensation is a matter between the pilot and a third party.

But keep throwing coins in the wishing well...

Nu

 

[Kharma Police]

And I find it odd that one must only be a pilot and/or employee of SWA to understand something actually being taught in Masters programs at many universities across our great land.



This is an acquisition without third party financing. This is completely different. In fact, with regards to M/B, unprecedented.



Really. Let me let the SWA guys chime in on this one. Is corporate culture no longer considered important at SWA?



Contrary to some isolated beliefs on the forum, nothing in this matter will effect my life. But being an objective observer, my money right now is with the SWA pilots experiencing gains in seniority when it is all said and done.



And this feeling from an employee promoting their company is worth more than 300mil.

Airtran employees have a life changing opportunity in front of them. Seniority is the only concern the SWA pilots have. If you don't play ball, you otherwise you may be on the outside looking in. No matter what list you end up on.

Nice try with the altruism bit but I'm not buying it. I would have more respect for your point of view if you would simply say, "I work for Southwest, and this is how I think the AirTran pilots should be integrated". Yet, you continue this farce of being an outsider looking in; trying to be AirTran's Cassandra in hopes that we can save ourselves before it's too late. You have failed your peer review in convincing others, "like yourself" from other airlines to agree with your assessment. Your only audience has been the SWA FOs whom would probably agree with Hitler if he told them to staple the AirTran pilots.

 

[redflyer65]

However, when the SLI occurs between the two parties, it IS a zero sum game.

Under the RLA, a windfall describes such changes in seniority
Nu

Wow. Just keep telling yourself that, or better yet just keep the Airtran pay if its a 'zero sum gain'.

The arbitrator is going to see 60-80% pay difference as a major issue.

Again, what do the Southwest pilots gain with 'fair and equitable'?

 

[GuppyWN]

Under the RLA, a windfall describes such changes in seniority if it significantly changes a person's position, because it will be directly at the expense of another pilot, and that is a matter between the two parties.

Let me double check my USAir/America West, TWA/AA crystal ball and see how your hard-core RLA windfall protection worked for them.

What else you got?

Gup

 

[Sy-bill]

Nice try with the altruism bit but I'm not buying it. I would have more respect for your point of view if you would simply say, "I work for Southwest, and this is how I think the AirTran pilots should be integrated".

I don't need or want your respect. You can believe anything you want. It honestly makes zero difference to me.

You can screw yourselves all you want. I don't care at all. I am only interested in the bewildering attitude that pilots typically have by the "best pay to the last day" rant they have cutting off their noses despite their faces. Pilots are historically the absolute worst business people ever. You as a group have allowed your average earnings lose 35% of their value over the last 30 years. You are your own worst enemies. And you continue to be more concerned about who someone works for (me) than the message being shared.

I know one fact Karma Police or PCL 128 whichever you want to be, airline managers use your seniority to their advantage. And you are falling into that trap right now and you don't even know it. Even when someone has carefully pointed that out to you, you can't fathom your seniority will be affected by this acquisition. You will not get relative seniority. And if this goes as you say, you are endangered of having no seniority.

 

[NuGuy]

Let me double check my USAir/America West, TWA/AA crystal ball and see how your hard-core RLA windfall protection worked for them.

What else you got?

Gup

Interesting choice of examples, Gup.

I don't believe TWA/AA list ever went to arbitration, but it WAS one of the motivators for Bond/McCaskil.

The AAA/AWA went relative seniority, with limited exception. Who got the windfall?

Nu

 

[SWA/FO]

Who got the windfall?

The Lawyers.

 

[Richard Gozinya]

the SWA FOs whom would probably agree with Hitler if he told them to staple the AirTran pilots.

Absolutely pathetic!

 

[Kharma Police]

Absolutely pathetic!

Okay, how about Stalin instead?

 

[doh]

I don't need or want your respect. You can believe anything you want. It honestly makes zero difference to me.

You can screw yourselves all you want. I don't care at all. I am only interested in the bewildering attitude that pilots typically have by the "best pay to the last day" rant they have cutting off their noses despite their faces. Pilots are historically the absolute worst business people ever. You as a group have allowed your average earnings lose 35% of their value over the last 30 years. You are your own worst enemies. And you continue to be more concerned about who someone works for (me) than the message being shared.

I know one fact Karma Police or PCL 128 whichever you want to be, airline managers use your seniority to their advantage. And you are falling into that trap right now and you don't even know it. Even when someone has carefully pointed that out to you, you can't fathom your seniority will be affected by this acquisition. You will not get relative seniority. And if this goes as you say, you
are endangered of having no seniority.

How do you know they can't get relative seniority? Have you spoken to the arbitrator?

 

[oriondriver]

Interesting choice of examples, Gup.

I don't believe TWA/AA list ever went to arbitration, but it WAS one of the motivators for Bond/McCaskil.

The AAA/AWA went relative seniority, with limited exception. Who got the windfall?

Nu

how many years now have they been integrated? USAIR still working under old contract and AWA still under their contract. so it seems to be working great

 

[Kharma Police]

I don't need or want your respect. You can believe anything you want. It honestly makes zero difference to me.

You can screw yourselves all you want. I don't care at all. I am only interested in the bewildering attitude that pilots typically have by the "best pay to the last day" rant they have cutting off their noses despite their faces. Pilots are historically the absolute worst business people ever. You as a group have allowed your average earnings lose 35% of their value over the last 30 years. You are your own worst enemies. And you continue to be more concerned about who someone works for (me) than the message being shared.

I know one fact Karma Police or PCL 128 whichever you want to be, airline managers use your seniority to their advantage. And you are falling into that trap right now and you don't even know it. Even when someone has carefully pointed that out to you, you can't fathom your seniority will be affected by this acquisition. You will not get relative seniority. And if this goes as you say, you are endangered of having no seniority.

Thank you for stating the obvious with the predictable "Chicken Little" rant. You should give The Boyd Group a call, just brush up on your use of metaphors....

 

[Lear70]

Just a little non-moderator-based input.

Kharma and PCL are NOT the same person. PCL is otherwise occupied this evening and likely has discussed about as much as he is likely to in this thread, anyway.

I'm still a bit perplexed by people claiming "flame bait" when the person they're accusing it of is just saying they're not concerned about some type of separate-carrier whipsaw. I'm not concerned about it, either, to tell the truth, nor are any other AAI pilots if our internal message board is any indication of ongoing sentiment.

That may be one reason why you're not hearing much from AirTran pilots on here. I mean, why debate something with someone who you are that far apart on in fundamental beliefs of the situation's reality? Kind of pointless, really, and just serves to alienate each other further. Not to say you don't have the right to feel how you do, but we have the same right to feel how we do, and discussing it just seems to be aggravating everyone with no reason.

Better off not to engage at all and just wish all of us the best of luck and hopes for a profitable future together. YMMV... :beer:

 

[400ADude]

Here's some non-moderator input. We don't want you. Any questions?

 

[Cruncher]

I hope this all falls through.

Is this something we can all agree with? Serious question.

 

[doh]

This will not fall through. The guys with the money do not want it to fall through. You will negotiate a list or you will get an arbitrated list. Lots of you, from both sides, will not like the list.

 

[Lear70]

Here's some non-moderator input. We don't want you. Any questions?

Evidently Gary Kelly does, as does the Southwest BoD, not to mention the majority of your pilots I've run into on the jumpseats the last month don't seem to be quite as hostile about the acquisition as some on this board, so I'm guessing your view MIGHT be in the minority.

Just a thought... could be wrong, it's happened before. Just along for the ride, like most of the rest of us.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

This will not fall through. The guys with the money do not want it to fall through. You will negotiate a list or you will get an arbitrated list. Lots of you, from both sides, will not like the list.

Ohh now DOH. All the Airtran guys will luv the list. According to several of the Trannies on here they will get relative seniority or better. I think in the interest of unity they holding back on saying they expect that the arbitrator will award them at least the first 1700 spots.

 

[Lear70]

Moderator hat on:

Kharma, your Hitler reference borders WAY too close on personal attack, I'm going to ask you to take the hostility down a notch, please.

Moderator hat off:

Not to mention the Hitler reference does nothing to foster unity in working together in the future. Remember, some day we're going to fly alongside these guys and gals, try not to take the bait that some people are throwing out there. I know it's aggravating to be deliberately taunted, but sometimes the better part of valor is restraint.

Take a deep breath, go read the private board for a bit or just have a frosty adult beverage and think about your bet on the next Anchor Pool.

 

[hairball1173]

It will happen and one day Airtran will pass into history as many others have in the past. I hope the future holds what the past hasn't in so many ways. I hope the future holds a great and viable future in aviation. I hope that Southwest will continue on their path as many other have failed.

I just hope!!

 

[oriondriver]

just wondering if(hypothetically speaking of course) a few years after total integration WN makes a play for JB if Lear, TY, Kharma and the other ex-AAI bubbas will be pushing for relative seniority for the JB pilots because they say it is the right thing to do. of course by then the citrus green glasses they currently look through will be tinted canyon blue and the JB guys will have to be stapled or worst case DOH.

 

[vixin]

Gee I wonder what the answers will be.

 

[ASADFW7]

I do not think I am alone at SWA thinking this is just the first step in SWA acquisitions. GK stated 40% market share domestically, that would take some more deals.

 

[Kharma Police]

just wondering if(hypothetically speaking of course) a few years after total integration WN makes a play for JB if Lear, TY, Kharma and the other ex-AAI bubbas will be pushing for relative seniority for the JB pilots because they say it is the right thing to do. of course by then the citrus green glasses they currently look through will be tinted canyon blue and the JB guys will have to be stapled or worst case DOH.

Fair question. Since it wouldn't affect me in any way then merge Jetblue on the list just like DAL/NWA. I didn't have any problem with relative seniority when the Midwest Express deal was in the works either.

Since I gave a sincere honest answer, I have a sincere question for you "SWA bubbas". What will you lose with this deal? I know you guys don't think you will gain anything but what will the negative impact be for you and your career?

 

[Bwipilot]

What will you lose with this deal?

The AI pilots on this forum have been pushing relative seniority. It's gone over like a lead balloon since SWA pilots won't get the pay bump the AI pilots will get and will lose expected internal seniority improvements.

We've been waiting for a huge number of 60+ pilots to retire. 500 may not seem like a lot to some. However, that's 20-25% of the pilots on the seniority list above junior captains. It's enough to upgrade 20% of the SWA FOs.

Also, SWA pilots have been waiting expectantly for ramped up internal growth--which has always come with an improved economy. The internal growth, combined with retirements, would help out every SWA pilot. Alas, the aquisition of Airtran replaces that expected internal growth. There's too much for SWA to focus on and a huge amount of capital sunk into the purchase of AAI. Hence, it's another loss of upward growth for pilots even though it will be good for stockholders and the financial health of the company.