Will SWA and AT truly merge?

[General Lee]

Gen, if all that is true, why doesn't it work that way in the rest of the country? You know why, dollar cost averaging, that is why. Take care you have a great day, I hear Delta is a swell place to work these days, enjoy it.

ASADFW7,

Yeah, DL is a swell place to work, and hopefully SWA style pay wages will come back this way again someday. The point I was making with regard to AT is that every employee group there will want to make at least what current SWA employees make, which is top scale for the whole industry. That means it will get more expensive for SWA to bring parity, because they don't want to disturb that SWA Culture. How will they do that? Probably by raising fares, and that is good for all airlines. Have a great one.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[SWA/FO]

General,

SWA makes money now, paying all their employees. I would guess that this will continue after we aquire Tranny.

 

[Kharma Police]

ASADFW7,

Yeah, DL is a swell place to work, and hopefully SWA style pay wages will come back this way again someday. The point I was making with regard to AT is that every employee group there will want to make at least what current SWA employees make, which is top scale for the whole industry. That means it will get more expensive for SWA to bring parity, because they don't want to disturb that SWA Culture. How will they do that? Probably by raising fares, and that is good for all airlines. Have a great one.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Respectfully, the combined Delta was able to make money after bringing pay parity to all employees.

 

[General Lee]

I luv u gen nuts! the retirements are calculated off the SWA side. This includes posible medical and early retirements. I stated it was a AVG of 2000. Gen you are a person of good information. (most of the time). I think you are scared of the possibilities this acquisition might bring.

Texman,

I hope you are right about your retirment numbers. Big time movement is always good for junior people, at any airline. As far as being scared of the possibilities of this merger of yours, yes, that will bring a lot more price competition to some of the DL hubs. As far as infrastructure goes, it will be hard for SWA to acquire more gates at ATL, since all of the gates were recently leased again for the next 7 years (with the city). And, 25 min turns are hard to do in ATL, and probably LGA as you know by now. Some airports like LBB are probably easier to get those turns out on time.

But, there is no doubt adding AT to the SWA mix will provide pressure on the legacies, and also cost pressures to SWA. You just can't have a B-Scale and keep the "culture." The good thing about that for DL employees is that that may also mean higher wages for DL employees too, since AT used to be a lot lower cost, and DL would always complain that they couldn't COMPETE against AT with their lower wages. Well, that means DL employees will be asking for at least what the "neighbors" have.... I guess costs will go up for a lot of airlines thanks to your merger.

Regardless, YOU ALL ARE FANTASTIC people, and I hope you go out there and do something nice for someone today, like buying a greek Gyro sandwich and giving it to a pal. No, that doesn't mean you "like" him, that means you like those sandwiches. "Going Greek" isn't always bad..... See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[texman]

Heyas,

Just so we're clear:

1) The NMB LOVES precedent. They love it because it doesn't make it look like they're inventing anything. This goes double (or triple) if it was recent.

2) The last few pilot arbitrations has gone straight relative seniority. Strip the handwaving/justification away from the recent DAL/NWA merger, and that's what you got, down to a decimal point. Pay didn't matter, contracts didn't matter, merger or acquisition didn't matter, relative size didn't matter. AAA/AWA was essentially the same, with the exception of a cutout for the larger 330 aircraft. AAI/SWA has no such differential.

3) Alot of effort has been used to move away the DOH method of integration. It will be VERY difficult to re-introduce it at this point and be able to point to recent precendence.

4) Pay/contracts do not figure into the equation. The career expectaions that the NMB will see is this: SWA pilot at the end of 20 years: 737 captain. AAI pilot at the end of 20 years: 737 captain.

5) Holding companies prior to SOC are extremely common, and nothing should be read into it. The companies cannot fully merge until they have achived a single operating certificate, which is not done overnight. NWA was placed into their own holding company, operated as a subsidiary to DAL until that date. Even though they carried DAL paint, NWA birds read "Operated by Northwest Airlines" , and used the NWA callsign until SOC, which was a year after the corporate closing.

6) The SWA pilots and the AAI pilots can decide in their own mind whatever is fair, but what they think doesn't matter. In the end, both sides agree, or someone else gets to decide what is fair for them.

7) While it is true that SWA management MAY decide to run a legal gauntlet to set up separate ops, it would be a risk to do so. Relying upon what SWA management has considered important in the past, such as corprate culture, is also suspect, because so may of the other things that were important to them in the past have been jettisoned already, including mergers, hub operations, congested airports, code sharing and bigger/different aircraft.

8) Depending on some sleigh of hand corporate handwaving on SWAs part to avoid combining the pilot groups may help you sleep at night, but I would place odds against it. What you see in the SEC filings happening is a safe bet.

Nu

Nu,

No flame, but how would this be same as NWA/DAL? So recent precedents would not apply. I think you will see a whole different outcome. Not saying unfair but fair in regards to the big picture. SWA is smart. They are not changing but evolving. Don't think that yesterday the company said " looks like we cant make money anymore, let's do something drastic. This has been in the plans since 1971. If you don't evolve you die. Freedom to fly!

 

[General Lee]

Respectfully, the combined Delta was able to make money after bringing pay parity to all employees.

I agree, but some on here think there should be a B-Scale, or they should get something in return for bringing up one group. That just won't happen, other than a slight increase for the larger group. Maybe a 5% raise for the larger group.

When you state that DL made money after paying parity, DL also did NOT pay past DL wages prior to BK. They may have to do that soon in the new contract, but they are still getting a good deal with 744 Capts at DL getting about the same as SWA 737 Captains. Do you think that is fair? DL had a $929 million profit for Q3. But, SWA will be paying AT SWA style wages, and that is top scale currently---for AT employees that are not at that level. That will be a huge jump in pay, and a jump for the payroll dept. So, fares will probably rise as a result, which is good for everyone.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Nu,

No flame, but how would this be same as NWA/DAL? So recent precedents would not apply. I think you will see a whole different outcome. Not saying unfair but fair in regards to the big picture. SWA is smart. They are not changing but evolving. Don't think that yesterday the company said " looks like we cant make money anymore, let's do something drastic. This has been in the plans since 1971. If you don't evolve you die. Freedom to fly!

Arbitrators like to stick to precedent for SLI. That way, they can blame everything on someone else. It's all about blame. If you don't like the decision, you can always blame the arbitrator(s), lawyers, other decisions, etc.

And, SWA is evolving, because they were running out of places to expand. They have plenty of aircraft orders, but they lacked gates and slots at places they could expand. AT gives them some extra room now. But, you will have to take the AT employees with you. IT'S ALL GOOD!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[texman]

Texman,

I hope you are right about your retirment numbers. Big time movement is always good for junior people, at any airline. As far as being scared of the possibilities of this merger of yours, yes, that will bring a lot more price competition to some of the DL hubs. As far as infrastructure goes, it will be hard for SWA to acquire more gates at ATL, since all of the gates were recently leased again for the next 7 years (with the city). And, 25 min turns are hard to do in ATL, and probably LGA as you know by now. Some airports like LBB are probably easier to get those turns out on time.

But, there is no doubt adding AT to the SWA mix will provide pressure on the legacies, and also cost pressures to SWA. You just can't have a B-Scale and keep the "culture." The good thing about that for DL employees is that that may also mean higher wages for DL employees too, since AT used to be a lot lower cost, and DL would always complain that they couldn't COMPETE against AT with their lower wages. Well, that means DL employees will be asking for at least what the "neighbors" have.... I guess costs will go up for a lot of airlines thanks to your merger.

Regardless, YOU ALL ARE FANTASTIC people, and I hope you go out there and do something nice for someone today, like buying a greek Gyro sandwich and giving it to a pal. No, that doesn't mean you "like" him, that means you like those sandwiches. "Going Greek" isn't always bad..... See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

No doubt AT will bring a lot to the table. But with our route structure to other cities besides ATL, you will see the AT side being optimize like crazy. So cost pressures will be status quo. AT is a low Frequency airline we are a high freq. We do work hard, but that allows the good compensation.

I will say, AT will not be a b scale side of the company. There are to many former airline guy's at SWA that won't let that fly (even some of your early buy out brothers from dal). All the AT guy's will be SWA.

Here is what I see on this thread. A lot of SWA guy's have been educated on the AM/MB heavily from our union. I don't think they are popping off to be nasty, they are just stating information from what our contract states in it and what AM/MB really means to the whole acquisition. The union ran several scenarios with all the airlines (us buying or being bought). The MB will be law, but it does not state relative seniority is fair . Everybody keeps saying it will be like, or should be like the NWA/DAL deal. I have to disagree. I worry more it being like aa/twa if we don't play nice. Happy work force = Prosperity. What ever way it plays out, I wish us the best of luck.

 

[ivauir]

Comparing this deal to DAL/NW is just silly.

I suggest you drop the flamebait.

Your life is about to change dramatically! You're going to LUV it here!

 

[texman]

Arbitrators like to stick to precedent for SLI. That way, they can blame everything on someone else. It's all about blame. If you don't like the decision, you can always blame the arbitrator(s), lawyers, other decisions, etc.

And, SWA is evolving, because they were running out of places to expand. They have plenty of aircraft orders, but they lacked gates and slots at places they could expand. AT gives them some extra room now. But, you will have to take the AT employees with you. IT'S ALL GOOD!


Bye Bye--General Lee

We have 71 firm orders on our side too. They will either be replacement aircraft or net growth who knows? I don't think we are running out of places, I think we just took out are biggest competitor. For cheap. Plus we did gain ATL, slots and a bigger east coast presence. But people have to remember that SWA brings 5 times to the table on every thing ( the list is to long). Can you imagine the synergies. All positive.

 

[oriondriver]

What the tranny guys are forgetting, is that they aren't bringing to the table anything. You guys didn't wake one day and say "Hey lets merge with SWA" .SWA is buying the gates at atlanta and the future expansion!

 

[ivauir]

To paraphrase te NRA, "Lawyers don't take positions; people take positions".

Seriously, consider who his client was.

Ty,

I hope you are right. But if what I am reading on this forum is any indication of ATNALPA's approach position ... Catz may be well in his comfort zone with his new client. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[waveflyer]

Comparing this deal to DAL/NW is just silly.

I suggest you drop the flamebait.

Your life is about to change dramatically! You're going to LUV it here!

This is a good point-
Coming from a man with several airlines on his resume- southwest is not like any airline out there - it IS different- employees get along- it's credible, not corny- there's substance behind the koolaid- and if you need something... It happens- we work hard, play hard- but not as hard as most domestic airlines- we're more efficient- ive flown so many days that credit over 9- fly 7-8, in a 9.5 hour duty day-
Getting wrapped up in SLIs when this is coming is remarkably silly. Just relax and realize that culture and life style has 35+ years of making happy successful pilots

 

[texman]

This is a good point-
Coming from a man with several airlines on his resume- southwest is not like any airline out there - it IS different- employees get along- it's credible, not corny- there's substance behind the koolaid- and if you need something... It happens- we work hard, play hard- but not as hard as most domestic airlines- we're more efficient- ive flown so many days that credit over 9- fly 7-8, in a 9.5 hour duty day-
Getting wrapped up in SLIs when this is coming is remarkably silly. Just relax and realize that culture and life style has 35+ years of making happy successful pilots

True.

 

[Kharma Police]

What the tranny guys are forgetting, is that they aren't bringing to the table anything. You guys didn't wake one day and say "Hey lets merge with SWA" .SWA is buying the gates at atlanta and the future expansion!

No airline can "buy" gates at The World's Busiest Airport, not even Delta. They are leased, not owned, just like they are leased in LGA and DCA. They just renegotiated the leases and AirTran and Delta I believe had right of first refusal. Southwest realized that although they might have all the money in the world, they will never have the ability to lease the 35 gates that we will have in Atlanta with the new terminal. We bring growth and expansion to the table so please mind your manners when you come to Atlanta for supper. Welcome to the Dirty South!

 

[Secret Squirrel]

So was it with a bunch of LUV that SWA management started code share agreements with Volaris? I am sure it was a bunch of hand holding and koombaya when that was announced. Oh yea, I read a bunch of bitching and complaining on here about how the company has changed. I have a feeling the company will do whatever it takes to make it look like they are holding your hand through all this, and then they will do what they wanted to do in the first place.

 

[ivauir]

... so please mind your manners when you come to Atlanta for supper. Welcome to the Dirty South!

*cough*

I'm happy to tell you that dinner will be served in the great state of Texas. Welcome to Southwest Airlines! You are going to LUV it here!

 

[waveflyer]

SS-You say that bc you don't know what you're talking about- every airline has their 10%- the bitching is lack of perspective

 

[ivauir]

So was it with a bunch of LUV that SWA management started code share agreements with Volaris? I am sure it was a bunch of hand holding and koombaya when that was announced. Oh yea, I read a bunch of bitching and complaining on here about how the company has changed. I have a feeling the company will do whatever it takes to make it look like they are holding your hand through all this, and then they will do what they wanted to do in the first place.

Mr Squirrel,

Volaris was/is so offensive to SWA pilots because we have almost completely avoided ANY farming out of our flying. Even though any codeshare is unpalatable, our section one only allows for minuscule near international codeshare. It is a great example of why it is great to work here - any airplanes in SWA colors will be flown by SWA pilots.

What kinda scope do YOU have?

 

[Mongolikecandy]

*cough*

I'm happy to tell you that dinner will be served in the great state of Texas. Welcome to Southwest Airlines! You are going to LUV it here!

We talkin' brisket and Lone Star beer? I am on board regardless. If we are having that for dinner, that's just icing on the cake.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Mr Squirrel,

Volaris was/is so offensive to SWA pilots because we have almost completely avoided ANY farming out of our flying. Even though any codeshare is unpalatable, our section one only allows for minuscule near international codeshare. It is a great example of why it is great to work here - any airplanes in SWA colors will be flown by SWA pilots.

What kinda scope do YOU have?

Like I said, they did not turn down a deal that made financial sense because the pilot group disagreed. They did what they thought was best for the company(shareholders). I envy your relationship with your management and look forward to being proud of the company I work for. My company not only was the most aggressive I have ever seen, but also the dirtiest. They would beat the group into accepting a concession with one hand and violate the CBA with the other. And now there are those on this board that are saying we have that to look forward to in our contact with SWAPA. I hope this is bravado from some. But you can understand why some of us are skeptical. Here is to hoping for blue skies ahead.

 

[redflyer65]

4) Pay/contracts do not figure into the equation. The career expectaions that the NMB will see is this: SWA pilot at the end of 20 years: 737 captain. AAI pilot at the end of 20 years: 737 captain.


Nu

I think your gamble on this one is not going to pay off.

There is a MASSIVE pay disparity between the two companies. Southwest has senior FO's making as much as senior AAI Captains.

Explain to me how that is not a windfall for the AAI pilots.(Not flame, but facts)

On the other side of the coin, what is in it for the SWA pilots? They already have the pay, work rules, and retirement. I'm not talking about what Southwest the company gets, but exactly what the Southwest Pilots get out of the deal.

Where is "fair and equitable" from the Southwest side of the equation?

 

[Kharma Police]

I think your gamble on this one is not going to pay off.

There is a MASSIVE pay disparity between the two companies. Southwest has senior FO's making as much as senior AAI Captains.

Explain to me how that is not a windfall for the AAI pilots.(Not flame, but facts)

On the other side of the coin, what is in it for the SWA pilots? They already have the pay, work rules, and retirement. I'm not talking about what Southwest the company gets, but exactly what the Southwest Pilots get out of the deal.

Where is "fair and equitable" from the Southwest side of the equation?

This is a broken record dude. If you have to ask, you'll never know.

 

[rajflyboy]

Come on now people. You know that SWA is going to take the Air Tran guys and let them merge into the seniority list date of hire, they will give them SWA pay and bennies, they will give them profit sharing checks back to date of hire, they will give them each a bottle of Whiskey and they won't even have to buy their own 737 types.


They don't call Southwest the "Love Machine" for nothing

 

[Kharma Police]

Come on now people. You know that SWA is going to take the Air Tran guys and let them merge into the seniority list date of hire, they will give them SWA pay and bennies, they will give them profit sharing checks back to date of hire, they will give them each a bottle of Whiskey and they won't even have to buy their own 737 types.


They don't call Southwest the "Love Machine" for nothing

Oy Vey, here comes some gas for the fire.

Please SWA dudes, don't flip, this guy isn't Tranny.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Here is the Flight Info solution to fair and equitable. The Airtran pilots will get everything RAJ said except they will be awarded the top 7700 spots on the combined list. Since there are only 1700 AAI pilots the ALPA MEC will set up a new process to hire the remaining 6000 pilots. All SWA pilots will be have "preferential interviews" and may or may not be placed on the list. After the 7700 selected by the AAI ALPA MEC all remaining SWA pilots will furloughed and placed on a "possible recall list". This list will be used only if the AAI ALPA MEC runs out of people they want to hire.

 

[400ADude]

There will be relative seniority based on career earnings and future earnings.

Count on it Critter boys!

 

[tzskipper]

Here is the Flight Info solution to fair and equitable. The Airtran pilots will get everything RAJ said except they will be awarded the top 7700 spots on the combined list. Since there are only 1700 AAI pilots the ALPA MEC will set up a new process to hire the remaining 6000 pilots. All SWA pilots will be have "preferential interviews" and may or may not be placed on the list. After the 7700 selected by the AAI ALPA MEC all remaining SWA pilots will furloughed and placed on a "possible recall list". This list will be used only if the AAI ALPA MEC runs out of people they want to hire.

That is funny.... It actually resembles what the offspring would have been, had what AT wanted to do to the ATA pilots been combined with what SWA had a hand in doing to the ATA pilots, in it's (successful) effort to eliminate the MDW competition and grab the gates....

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Ohh and I forgot any former SWA pilot, poolie, or applicant will not be eligable for upgrade. The will have to pay for thier recurrent training every year (since SWA is a PFT operation) and will only be allowed to fly trips that contain at least 6 legs a day and overnight in LBB AMA or MAF.

 

[Kharma Police]

That is funny.... It actually resembles what the offspring would have been, had what AT wanted to do to the ATA pilots been combined with what SWA had a hand in doing to the ATA pilots, in it's (successful) effort to eliminate the MDW competition and grab the gates....

Very poor move by AirTran's Management to not try and buy the whole ATA operation with all the employees.