Will SWA and AT truly merge?

[roughneck]

No, its in the TA language and the section 1 changes will have no bearing on SWA or the SLI.

 

[ivauir]

It's disappointing to see the confrontational attitude by so many SWA pilots on FI, but message boards always attract the radical fringe from every pilot group.

Really? That is pretty one sided don't you think?

On top of the ridiculous flamesbait posted by some of your brethren we have draconian, one way moderating.

There is a lot to be disappointed by.

 

[27 driver]

$400 million in synergies. Ya he sure will dismantle that. GK doesn't work for the pilots. He works for the share holders. He will follow the $. He decided that this was a good deal and publicly stated that the employees come with the deal. It's just that simple. Any pilot or pilot group that thinks they control this deal is disillusioned.

 

[roughneck]

The gates in ATL are worth more than $400M every year. SWA doesn't need AT operating to see the $$$ so I don't think it is a concern for the investors.

 

[texman]

Guy's! I like what I am seeing here. What I see is two pilot groups with a lot of pride. With that pride, let's take it to the next level and use that energy to talk about the positive side of the whole acquisition = merger. I will start with two.

1. Growth.

2. Airtran guy's and gal's get to enjoy what we have built and vice versa.

 

[ivauir]

3. An Airline that will kick Delta's buttocks.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

4. You don't have to worry about running into General Lee in Lubbock.

 

[SWA/FO]

5. Tranny's hot FAs?

 

[texman]

5. Avg 2,000 retirements coming, in the next ten years
6. Hawaii ( so some of are old guy's can enjoy before they head out door.)
7. More expansion in the Caribbean and way down south.
6. Expanding in smaller cities out west. ( By the way can the 717 make second segment climb out of ASE?)
8. Denver as a new base in the future.


Endless positive possibilities.

 

[texman]

3. An Airline that will kick Delta's buttocks.

And a guarantee 50% ticket price drop in ATL, straight from GK's mouth.

 

[vixin]

So you're saying that your M&A Committee rep has told you that SWA will try to keep the operations separate if you don't get your way on SLI? Just want to be clear.

Where the heck do you get that from my little sentence. Man get off the pipe once in a while. Nice how you read things. I just like what they have told me, ALOT! Not very worried about how this will go one way or the other.

SWAPA needs to draft a side letter that states, SWA must sell all assets of an AQUIRED company, that is held by GH prior to 17 months. Sarcasm guys! I wonder if that SL would pass. We still would probably only have 40% participate in the vote though.

 

[ivauir]

No, it's not an assumption, it's a contractual requirement. He has 18 months to either combine the carriers or divest AirTran. It's not a choice.

Then I guess he'll have to divest - no way are they going to be able to get combined operations in 18 months.

You can put anything you want in a contract - enforcing it is another thing altogether (ever heard of iron clad "no furlough" language?)

So go ahead and file your grievance, bite the hand that feeds and see how Gary reacts. Or you could relax and enjoy the career altering change bestowed on you.

The fact that you guys are using USAirways' lawyer is not good news for anyone. He is known to take extreme and unrealistic positions and never move. I'm wondering if the extreme positions adopted by AII guys on this message board are the result of his coaching.

The result of these kind of tactics isn't a better deal - the result is career carnage.

 

[Lear70]

Really? That is pretty one sided don't you think?

On top of the ridiculous flamesbait posted by some of your brethren we have draconian, one way moderating.

There is a lot to be disappointed by.

Sure, which is why I banned one of our own AAI pilots last week. Draconian. One-way. Mmmkay.

To the person making personal attacks on a pilot who is allegedly part of the SWAPA MC, knock it off. I thought I had made it PERFECTLY clear that there would be no more of the personal attacks.

Next person who does it goes to the penalty box for a month.

p.s. PapaWoody, got your PM, you were absolutely correct, and the other person has been warned to knock it off.

/mod

 

[ATLplt]

5. Tranny's hot FAs?

Hahahahahaha! Now THAT'S the funniest post yet!

 

[General Lee]

5. Avg 2,000 retirements coming, in the next ten years
6. Hawaii ( so some of are old guy's can enjoy before they head out door.)
7. More expansion in the Caribbean and way down south.
6. Expanding in smaller cities out west. ( By the way can the 717 make second segment climb out of ASE?)
8. Denver as a new base in the future.


Endless positive possibilities.

Hey PALS, make sure you add that Volaris Codeshare..... And, Hawaii is not a market that you will make money. Only one airline makes money on Hawaii, and that is Hawaiian because they have interisland feed that helps with the longhaul feed. Other carriers fly there for their own frequent flyers. And, how many retirements will you be having? 2000? Really? From which side? The AT guys are all fairly young. And the senior SWA guys will try to get age 70 legislation enacted. You know they will! And who said you will be kicking DL's rear in ATL? You will have to raise fares just to pay for all of the EXTRA pay for every AT employee in ATL. There is no way around it, and you will probably throw away the "bags fly free" deal too. Too much added revenue left on the table, that could go to helping pay the gap between employee groups. You wouldn't want to spoil the SWA culture, would you? And, DL owns 70% of the traffic in ATL, and will continue to do so. There just aren't enough extra gates for SWA to buy there, and 25 min turns are VERY RARE here. Go ahead and try it though, especially with ground employees that are paid old AT wages. If you don't pay them, they will revolt. If you do pay them, you will have to raise fares. See the conundrum? We all do. BUT REGARDLESS, YOU GUYS ARE REALLY COOL. No wait, you guys are AWESOME.

Regardless, you all are FANTASTIC PEOPLE. TOP SHELF. And, if you have time today, do something great for someone or something, like instead of telling your Captain an actual joke, give him a fart sandwich. If he doesn't laugh, he is a LOSER. See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

Hahahahahaha! Now THAT'S the funniest post yet!

I know a few

 

[Ty Webb]

The fact that you guys are using USAirways' lawyer is not good news for anyone. He is known to take extreme and unrealistic positions and never move.

To paraphrase te NRA, "Lawyers don't take positions; people take positions".

Seriously, consider who his client was.

 

[ASADFW7]

Gen, if all that is true, why doesn't it work that way in the rest of the country? You know why, dollar cost averaging, that is why. Take care you have a great day, I hear Delta is a swell place to work these days, enjoy it.

 

[texman]

I luv u gen nuts! the retirements are calculated off the SWA side. This includes posible medical and early retirements. I stated it was a AVG of 2000. Gen you are a person of good information. (most of the time). I think you are scared of the possibilities this acquisition might bring.

 

[N2264J]

N2264J, can you show everyone the contractual provision that you had in 2000 that required the merger of CMR or ASA with Delta?

Irrelavant.

Delta, Comair and ASA pilots all belonged to the same "union."

Check out ALPA's administration manual under Section 45:
Merger and Fragmentation Policy or Section 135: Alter Ego Policy.

The gist of both chapters was completely ignored. ALPA conspired with the ghost of Frank Lorenzo.

...I would like to point out, though, that it is an acquisition and not a merger...

This is exactly what the Delta pilots were telling Comair and ASA pilots in 2000.

Funny, no?

 

[texman]

LISTEN AFTER A COUPLE OF BEERS. IT WILL HELP THIS THREAD. CHILLLLLLLLLL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SCGbbw1Zro

 

[Dude]

To the person making personal attacks on a pilot who is allegedly part of the SWAPA MC, knock it off. I thought I had made it PERFECTLY clear that there would be no more of the personal attacks.

Lear,

Who are you talking about?

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

Who are you talking about?

OurMoney1

Posts #228 and #234 in this thread where he or she is trashing a member of the SWAPA MC. Not going to start down this road, leaving the posts up so people can see what I'm talking about, but further trashing of people like this will result in a 30 day suspension and deletion of the offending comments.

/mod

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

While FDJ and I were once on opposite sides of the table, everything that he has said in the past has proven to be accurate.

Separate ops is fine, but understand what AT brings to the table that SWA wants. They want ATL (gate leases belong to AT), slots in LGA and DCA (again in AT's name), and most importantly, the ETOPS and international ops, which belong to the AT operating certificate, and cannot be easily transferred. Slot and foreign authority transfer hearings take time, and you just don't swap ops spec authority from one certificate to another willy nilly.

SWA wants AT because they are out of easy growth opportunities...there is no where for them TO grow without them, and to think they'd run separate ops just to work around a culture may be naive, counter to what's been in the press and SEC disclosure, and operationally expensive (two sets of management, two operating certificates, two of everything).

Nu

 

[ATLplt]

Nu, please do not try to bring logic and reason to this board. You're gonna ruin all the grenade lobbing and luv.

 

[Sy-bill]

Heyas,
and to think they'd run separate ops just to work around a culture may be naive
Nu

You grossly under estimate the value SWA puts on its culture. It is worth far more than 300mil to them. They have mentioned more than several times in press releases how important the culture will be with this transaction.

Separate ops does not mean separate brand. USairways east and west have proven the possibility of two contracts. Not what I would want but the pilots seem to be satisfied with the arrangement.

Most (if not most all) the first Officers at SWA want a relative seniority gain with this acquisition. The junior Captains also I am certain. This they find fair with the tremendous salary, benefits and othe QOL gains the AT pilots will automatically receive.

Integration is a broad word with many different possibilities. SWA will choose what is best for the company.

 

[Ty Webb]

Most (if not most all) the first Officers at SWA want a relative seniority gain with this acquisition.

Pretty strong stuff coming from a guy who says he doesn't work there.

Which one is it? I have little tolerance for people that post ad nauseum about an airline but don't have the cojones to say where they work.


.

 

[Sy-bill]

Pretty strong stuff coming from a guy who says he doesn't work there.

Which one is it? I have little tolerance for people that post ad nauseum about an airline but don't have the cojones to say where they work.


.

One does not need to go far to get the pulse of that work group. Just as I bet your group wants relative seniority. These really are not difficult assumptions to make anyways.

No one has asked you to tolerate anything. Who says I work for an airline?

You can ignore me. And based on your frustration over irrelevant issues with me, I recommend you do.

 

[Kharma Police]

Pretty strong stuff coming from a guy who says he doesn't work there.

Which one is it? I have little tolerance for people that post ad nauseum about an airline but don't have the cojones to say where they work.


.

Yes, I too find it odd that a guy that claims he has no vested interest has such a deep knowledge of Southwest's culture and history and such a partisan view point. I think he read a post of mine that stated that every airline in the industry seems to agree that the SLI should go to arbitration. He is pretending to be an outside observer unselfishly trying to make us Trannys see the light with his point of view but his post's make it quite obvious who he really works for.

 

[NuGuy]

You grossly under estimate the value SWA puts on its culture. It is worth far more than 300mil to them. They have mentioned more than several times in press releases how important the culture will be with this transaction.

Separate ops does not mean separate brand. USairways east and west have proven the possibility of two contracts. Not what I would want but the pilots seem to be satisfied with the arrangement.

Most (if not most all) the first Officers at SWA want a relative seniority gain with this acquisition. The junior Captains also I am certain. This they find fair with the tremendous salary, benefits and othe QOL gains the AT pilots will automatically receive.

Integration is a broad word with many different possibilities. SWA will choose what is best for the company.

Heyas,

Just so we're clear:

1) The NMB LOVES precedent. They love it because it doesn't make it look like they're inventing anything. This goes double (or triple) if it was recent.

2) The last few pilot arbitrations has gone straight relative seniority. Strip the handwaving/justification away from the recent DAL/NWA merger, and that's what you got, down to a decimal point. Pay didn't matter, contracts didn't matter, merger or acquisition didn't matter, relative size didn't matter. AAA/AWA was essentially the same, with the exception of a cutout for the larger 330 aircraft. AAI/SWA has no such differential.

3) Alot of effort has been used to move away the DOH method of integration. It will be VERY difficult to re-introduce it at this point and be able to point to recent precendence.

4) Pay/contracts do not figure into the equation. The career expectaions that the NMB will see is this: SWA pilot at the end of 20 years: 737 captain. AAI pilot at the end of 20 years: 737 captain.

5) Holding companies prior to SOC are extremely common, and nothing should be read into it. The companies cannot fully merge until they have achived a single operating certificate, which is not done overnight. NWA was placed into their own holding company, operated as a subsidiary to DAL until that date. Even though they carried DAL paint, NWA birds read "Operated by Northwest Airlines" , and used the NWA callsign until SOC, which was a year after the corporate closing.

6) The SWA pilots and the AAI pilots can decide in their own mind whatever is fair, but what they think doesn't matter. In the end, both sides agree, or someone else gets to decide what is fair for them.

7) While it is true that SWA management MAY decide to run a legal gauntlet to set up separate ops, it would be a risk to do so. Relying upon what SWA management has considered important in the past, such as corprate culture, is also suspect, because so may of the other things that were important to them in the past have been jettisoned already, including mergers, hub operations, congested airports, code sharing and bigger/different aircraft.

8) Depending on some sleigh of hand corporate handwaving on SWAs part to avoid combining the pilot groups may help you sleep at night, but I would place odds against it. What you see in the SEC filings happening is a safe bet.

Nu