Why isn't there a union for the Regionals??

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

There are so many problems with both sides, that only a concerted effort, with real sacrifice will ever fix it.

It's easy for the mainline pilots to say "get better work rules and pay for the regionals". But without real protection of the flying at the regionals, that will never happen.

Look at the Comair strike. It was an abject failure. Whether it was some huge ATA/RATA conspiracy, or if Mother Delta was just being mean, they were NEVER going to allow Comair to raise the bar in any significant way. They were a couple days from shutting down and outsourcing the whole shebang, which is why the settlement happened. It would have a been a better deal for DAL to shut the whole thing down, eat the loss on their investment in Comair, than to allow any real traction for the pilot groups.

Without protection of the flying, you aren't going to get ANYWHERE, because no one group, most especially the backpacked ipod SJS crowd wants to be the first on the chopping block.

The flying for the regionals is simply too mobile. It's simply outsourced lift, and when it costs too much, the airlines pick up the phone can call the next cheaper guy in the phone book .

Nu

 

[Occam's Razor]

Flying protection at the Regionals is entirely possible...and attainable.

But it won't be free. It won't be free because being able to find pilots willing to do the job, in cool, spiffy jets!...for less is worth too much to management.
It will cost $$. Gobs and gobs of $$ ($$$! <--3 "$'s"!!). The issue has always been who will bear the cost of the "fix", known as "Brand Scope".

The RJDC booger-eaters will tell you the mainline guys should pay for it. The mainline guys will tell you both groups should pay for it...the guys who directly benefit from it...and the guys at the mainline.

That causes a problem. The dorks who want 90% of the benefit, but are unwilling to pay for it, refract the issue. They bend it just enough to make it look like ALPA (or whatever union represents the pilots) is derelict in it's duties for not giving Regional pilots what they "deserve".

That's crap.

You want Legacy Scope? Either get hired by a Legacy...or pay for it!

If you could get hired by a Legacy, you would. You either can't, or you've chosen not to. Don't Pi$$ on MY ankles cuz' your luck, personality, or bona fides are lacking.

If you are unwilling to pay for Brand Scope...admit it.

Brand Scope at DAL would run around $800-million over the course of a pilot contract. Your higher-paid brethren at the mainline can be expected to pay a large portion of that cost, because there IS a benefit to relieving the pressure point at the smaller-jet end of your fleet that exists only because some pilots are willing to undercut YOUR rates to do it.

The rest of the cost belongs to those who would benefit most from Brand Scope - the pilots at the Regionals.

That cost is tough to swallow for them because there's not a lot of cushion between existing Regional pay rates...and a refrigerator box nestled under an overpass.

The Comair strike was a success! It demonstrated to everybody that pilots were willing to walk away from their jobs if they thought the deal management was offering was a low-ball offer. Later, the management-friendly bankruptcy laws gave management (with the courts checking their six!) enough leverage to alter the Sophie's Choice the Comair pilots faced. They ate a crappy deal.

That doesn't mean Comair pilots didn't cowboy-up in 2001 and take a stand. They did!

The business model at the Legacies has changed. The new plan is to focus on International flying, and farm-out as much of the domestic system as they can. They'll still operate a fleet of large narrowboy aircraft, because the 15-16 major buisness centers in the US are saturated by the numbers of operations...not the lift.

If you're at a Regional airline because you are trying to put ink in a logbook, you shrug your shoulders at Brand Scope. Sure, it'd be cool...but your plan is to suck it up for a few years, then make the jump to light speed at a Legacy.

If you're at a Regional because you typify professional Darwinism, then Brand Scope is a lower-tier priority as you seek nirvana - $85k a year for 14-days a month of flying.

Utopian plans to alter the strata are inspiring...if you don't have to pay for them.

But you do.

Dang.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'll dang your dang... Occam....

Dang!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Dang.... I can't believe two smart people don't realize how brand scope benefits the mainline pilots also.... What are those Compass payrates?

Downward pressure on the 100 seat and less market affects the mainline even more than the regionals....

 

[PCL_128]

Dang.... I can't believe two smart people don't realize how brand scope benefits the mainline pilots also.... What are those Compass payrates?

Downward pressure on the 100 seat and less market affects the mainline even more than the regionals....

Yes, it benefits both, so both need to contribute to the necessary sacrifices to make it happen, not just the mainline pilots. I believe that is Occam's point.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yes, it benefits both, so both need to contribute to the necessary sacrifices to make it happen, not just the mainline pilots. I believe that is Occam's point.

He is implying that it benefits us more at the regional level.... I don't believe that is true....

In addition, it has to be part of the mainline scope section, since according to ALPA the flying belongs to them......

I'm not opposed to paying for it, but many are.....

 

[Occam's Razor]

Dang.... I can't believe two smart people don't realize how brand scope benefits the mainline pilots also

1. I know you can't. I think it's because you choose to ignore entire passages of some posts. Bits like this: "Your higher-paid brethren at the mainline can be expected to pay a large portion of that cost, because there IS a benefit to relieving the pressure point at the smaller-jet end of your fleet that exists only because some pilots are willing to undercut YOUR rates to do it."

2. Brand Scope benefits mainline pilots ONLY because you would be willing to fly the same jet for less. Were that not an inescapable FACT, we wouldn't be discussing the issue.

Downward pressure on the 100 seat and less market affects the mainline even more than the regionals....

Accurate, but simplistic. Now explain exactly WHY mainline pilots should worry about it.

What are those Compass payrates?

Crappy.

Yet the number of applications rises every week.

Call it "Exhibit A" and understand it. There are thousands of Joe Merchants out there willing to do it.

If it's a path to the Land of Milk & Honey...you'll do it. Walk away from your job until you get paid better and I won't have to take huge pay cuts to achieve Brand Scope. We wouldn't need it!

 

[Occam's Razor]

He is implying that it benefits us more at the regional level.... I don't believe that is true....

Then add "delusional" to your resume.

I'm not opposed to paying for it, but many are.....

Ahhh! A glimmer of rationality!

If most are unwilling to pay for it, then there's a good chance it won't happen. You need to get busy on that, instead of trying to sue your way onto someone else's seniority list. I tried, but was rebuffed by the RJDC founders, who refused to accept the concept that some of the cost should be borne by them.

You call that a "failure of ALPA" caused by the mainline pilots. Wrong villains, bubba!

 

[JoeMerchant]

1. I know you can't. I think it's because you choose to ignore entire passages of some posts. Bits like this: "Your higher-paid brethren at the mainline can be expected to pay a large portion of that cost, because there IS a benefit to relieving the pressure point at the smaller-jet end of your fleet that exists only because some pilots are willing to undercut YOUR rates to do it."

2. Brand Scope benefits mainline pilots ONLY because you would be willing to fly the same jet for less. Were that not an inescapable FACT, we wouldn't be discussing the issue.



Accurate, but simplistic. Now explain exactly WHY mainline pilots should worry about it.



Crappy.

Yet the number of applications rises every week.

Call it "Exhibit A" and understand it. There are thousands of Joe Merchants out there willing to do it.

If it's a path to the Land of Milk & Honey...you'll do it. Walk away from your job until you get paid better and I won't have to take huge pay cuts to achieve Brand Scope. We wouldn't need it!

Hey Occam..... it's called COMPETITION..... It drives down prices and wages.......

ALPA can either stop the COMPETITION within a brand, or we can compete with each other.....

The main reason guys are willing to do it for less is so they can gain experience to become a "real" airline pilot.....If the pay was similar regardless of the size of aircraft, you would see much of this "willing to fly for less" go away.... Having half of the domestic flying classified as "stepping stone" jobs doesn't help any.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Then add "delusional" to your resume.

The mainline pay and workrules had further to fall.... In fact most regionals are still getting payraises while mainline contracts were gutted.... The regionals are also adding jobs while the mainlines lost around 10000 jobs.... The regional job won't get much better without "brand scope", but it won't get any worse either...... Supply and demand will take care of that.... Mainline pay and workrules on the other hand will continue to be pressured by those of us in the basement.....

Ahhh! A glimmer of rationality!

If most are unwilling to pay for it, then there's a good chance it won't happen. You need to get busy on that, instead of trying to sue your way onto someone else's seniority list. I tried, but was rebuffed by the RJDC founders, who refused to accept the concept that some of the cost should be borne by them.

You call that a "failure of ALPA" caused by the mainline pilots. Wrong villains, bubba!

Most pilots at the regional level aren't going to jump on my bandwagon, your bandwagon, ALPA's bandwagon or the RJDC's bandwagon..... They are too busy trying to get to airline pilot Nirvana at the mainline..... They can't be bothered with the "big picture".... Any leadership in this area is going to have to come from ALPA national and the mainline MECs...... otherwise it simply won't happen......

 

[Occam's Razor]

Most pilots at the regional level aren't going to jump on my bandwagon, your bandwagon, ALPA's bandwagon or the RJDC's bandwagon..... They are too busy trying to get to airline pilot Nirvana at the mainline..... They can't be bothered with the "big picture".... Any leadership in this area is going to have to come from ALPA national and the mainline MECs...... otherwise it simply won't happen......

"most" won't (your observation)...so ALPA needs to jam it down their throats.

Got it!

What if somebody sues because they disagree with what ALPA is doing in the interest of enhancing the profession?

Nah! Never happen! No small self-serving group of "victims" would ever consider finding a scumbag lawyer and suing ALPA.

 

[DashTrash400]

Occam, I agree with the gist of your post, that both groups are going to have to pay, but I think you're still missing the point as to how mainline pilots (present & future) benefit. How much higher on the totem pole would any given Delta pilot be if mgmt decided it was no longer cost effective to outsource any flying over 50 seats and brought it back inhouse? How many NWA captains will find themselves downgraded into the right seat if NWA is able to park the DC9 fleet for outsourced airplanes? Having strong scope at the legacies is only half of the equation; having strong scope at the regionals would address the other half, namely management's motivation for wanting to farm out the flying in the first place. Hint: it's not simply that regional pilots are lined up begging to fly shiny jets for free. It's that every time they demand a fair wage, the flying can easily be taken away and given to a more "compliant" pilot group!

 

[Speedtape]

Speedtape, if you truly believe that, then why did our Capt. rep. (DU) tell me that he was sad to see the RJDC lawsuit settle? He went on to say that the RJDC lawsuit helped ASA out with DALPA and ALPA.... Pennekamp has confirmed this information...... Why do we need to sue our own union to protect our interests? There is a conflict of interest within ALPA and it has to be resolved or it will tear the union apart......

I was not privy to the conversation, but I can see where the notion would have merit. Irregardless of the final outcome, pending lawsuits can usually change the behavior of defendants to reduce further exposure or incrimination. Anytime someone or an entity is in the legal spotlight, the good always seems to come out.

"Why do we need to sue our own union to protect our interests?", you asked. I can't answer the question, because I along with 99.9999% of the rest of the 62,000 members were not litigants in the suit. However, we were, in whole, the defendants and have financial exposure to the outcome. Unresolved disputes, whether with or without merit, can often result in lawsuits in all arenas.

I would agree that there are conflicts within ALPA. However, there are conflicts within any democratic governing body. Furthermore, there are conflicts within in any relationship or institution that man is involved,ie., marriage, partnerships, corporations,etc. There are also usually methods or processes within those bodies to resolve those disputes. Most often, resolution requires compromise. In any of those governing bodies, there are always minority groups that sometimes have little leverage in achieving their political ambitions. I suppose the final action for remedy or redress is a lawsuit.

Your lawsuit seems to have some merit. Obviously, it had some affect on the landscape. What is the current status of the suit? Was there compromise? Has it been disposed?

In closing, regional pilots do have a Union or at least a choice in representation. ALPA is my choice and the choice of most of the rest of the regional pilots. Is it perfect? No, there is no perfect solution. Does ALPA represent all my "best" interests. No, I don't think ALPA can represent ALL the"best" interests of any one pilot or sometimes even one small group or even one large group. However, overall, I think ALPA can protect and benefit my career and profession, and the career of 62,000 members, better than any other option I have--imperfections and all! Heck, it's even indirectly protecting the career, pay and benefits of 2600 Skywest pilots that just chose not to join.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I think you're still missing the point as to how mainline pilots (present & future) benefit.

Huh?

I understand it very well. I was the original mainline advocate for Brand Scope at ALPA. Heck, even the RJDC knotheads acknowledge that.

How much higher on the totem pole would any given Delta pilot be if mgmt decided it was no longer cost effective to outsource any flying over 50 seats and brought it back inhouse?

A bit, but I think it'd be offset by the "pull down effect". That's what would take place when the next contract came up, and the DAL seniority list contained pilots making $250/hr and pilots making $30/hr. Where do you think the "pressure point" would be in that situation?

Would the rallying cry be, "Get those widebody guys $300!!"? (a 20% raise) Or would it be "Get those poor buggers at the bottom of the same list up to $50!!"? (a 67% rasie)

In situations where we've seen disparities on a mainline list in terms of pay...the pressure point has always been focused on pulling-up the lower end. At NWA in '98, the #1 contract objective was to end the B-scale...something that didn't impact the top 80% of the list.

How many NWA captains will find themselves downgraded into the right seat if NWA is able to park the DC9 fleet for outsourced airplanes?

About 200. We'll be hiring about twice that many to cover attrition over the next several months. The DC-9's will be here for awhile because they're paid for. That's a huge chunk of the equation and airline managements, as spectacularly stupid as they are, are predictable when it comes to avoiding large capital costs.

And keep in mind, parking the DC-9 is not our issue. The replacement for it is. We have set the rates for the replacement aircraft already. Since we know our Marketing Department has no intention of abandoning that segment...there will be a replacement, and it will be flown by mainline pilots.

having strong scope at the regionals would address the other half, namely management's motivation for wanting to farm out the flying in the first place.

Agree. That's why I think it would be a good thing. Repeat: That's why I favor pursuing Brand Scope.

I also favor sharing the costs to achieve it.

Hint: it's not simply that regional pilots are lined up begging to fly shiny jets for free. It's that every time they demand a fair wage, the flying can easily be taken away and given to a more "compliant" pilot group!

Are you suggesting that anytime a pilot group tries to take action to improve the profession...there are other pilots willing to undercut them by doing the same flying for less?

'member what Pogo said about that?