Why isn't there a union for the Regionals??

[Occam's Razor]

Most pilots at the regional level aren't going to jump on my bandwagon, your bandwagon, ALPA's bandwagon or the RJDC's bandwagon..... They are too busy trying to get to airline pilot Nirvana at the mainline..... They can't be bothered with the "big picture".... Any leadership in this area is going to have to come from ALPA national and the mainline MECs...... otherwise it simply won't happen......

"most" won't (your observation)...so ALPA needs to jam it down their throats.

Got it!

What if somebody sues because they disagree with what ALPA is doing in the interest of enhancing the profession?

Nah! Never happen! No small self-serving group of "victims" would ever consider finding a scumbag lawyer and suing ALPA.

 

[DashTrash400]

Occam, I agree with the gist of your post, that both groups are going to have to pay, but I think you're still missing the point as to how mainline pilots (present & future) benefit. How much higher on the totem pole would any given Delta pilot be if mgmt decided it was no longer cost effective to outsource any flying over 50 seats and brought it back inhouse? How many NWA captains will find themselves downgraded into the right seat if NWA is able to park the DC9 fleet for outsourced airplanes? Having strong scope at the legacies is only half of the equation; having strong scope at the regionals would address the other half, namely management's motivation for wanting to farm out the flying in the first place. Hint: it's not simply that regional pilots are lined up begging to fly shiny jets for free. It's that every time they demand a fair wage, the flying can easily be taken away and given to a more "compliant" pilot group!

 

[Speedtape]

Speedtape, if you truly believe that, then why did our Capt. rep. (DU) tell me that he was sad to see the RJDC lawsuit settle? He went on to say that the RJDC lawsuit helped ASA out with DALPA and ALPA.... Pennekamp has confirmed this information...... Why do we need to sue our own union to protect our interests? There is a conflict of interest within ALPA and it has to be resolved or it will tear the union apart......

I was not privy to the conversation, but I can see where the notion would have merit. Irregardless of the final outcome, pending lawsuits can usually change the behavior of defendants to reduce further exposure or incrimination. Anytime someone or an entity is in the legal spotlight, the good always seems to come out.

"Why do we need to sue our own union to protect our interests?", you asked. I can't answer the question, because I along with 99.9999% of the rest of the 62,000 members were not litigants in the suit. However, we were, in whole, the defendants and have financial exposure to the outcome. Unresolved disputes, whether with or without merit, can often result in lawsuits in all arenas.

I would agree that there are conflicts within ALPA. However, there are conflicts within any democratic governing body. Furthermore, there are conflicts within in any relationship or institution that man is involved,ie., marriage, partnerships, corporations,etc. There are also usually methods or processes within those bodies to resolve those disputes. Most often, resolution requires compromise. In any of those governing bodies, there are always minority groups that sometimes have little leverage in achieving their political ambitions. I suppose the final action for remedy or redress is a lawsuit.

Your lawsuit seems to have some merit. Obviously, it had some affect on the landscape. What is the current status of the suit? Was there compromise? Has it been disposed?

In closing, regional pilots do have a Union or at least a choice in representation. ALPA is my choice and the choice of most of the rest of the regional pilots. Is it perfect? No, there is no perfect solution. Does ALPA represent all my "best" interests. No, I don't think ALPA can represent ALL the"best" interests of any one pilot or sometimes even one small group or even one large group. However, overall, I think ALPA can protect and benefit my career and profession, and the career of 62,000 members, better than any other option I have--imperfections and all! Heck, it's even indirectly protecting the career, pay and benefits of 2600 Skywest pilots that just chose not to join.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I think you're still missing the point as to how mainline pilots (present & future) benefit.

Huh?

I understand it very well. I was the original mainline advocate for Brand Scope at ALPA. Heck, even the RJDC knotheads acknowledge that.

How much higher on the totem pole would any given Delta pilot be if mgmt decided it was no longer cost effective to outsource any flying over 50 seats and brought it back inhouse?

A bit, but I think it'd be offset by the "pull down effect". That's what would take place when the next contract came up, and the DAL seniority list contained pilots making $250/hr and pilots making $30/hr. Where do you think the "pressure point" would be in that situation?

Would the rallying cry be, "Get those widebody guys $300!!"? (a 20% raise) Or would it be "Get those poor buggers at the bottom of the same list up to $50!!"? (a 67% rasie)

In situations where we've seen disparities on a mainline list in terms of pay...the pressure point has always been focused on pulling-up the lower end. At NWA in '98, the #1 contract objective was to end the B-scale...something that didn't impact the top 80% of the list.

How many NWA captains will find themselves downgraded into the right seat if NWA is able to park the DC9 fleet for outsourced airplanes?

About 200. We'll be hiring about twice that many to cover attrition over the next several months. The DC-9's will be here for awhile because they're paid for. That's a huge chunk of the equation and airline managements, as spectacularly stupid as they are, are predictable when it comes to avoiding large capital costs.

And keep in mind, parking the DC-9 is not our issue. The replacement for it is. We have set the rates for the replacement aircraft already. Since we know our Marketing Department has no intention of abandoning that segment...there will be a replacement, and it will be flown by mainline pilots.

having strong scope at the regionals would address the other half, namely management's motivation for wanting to farm out the flying in the first place.

Agree. That's why I think it would be a good thing. Repeat: That's why I favor pursuing Brand Scope.

I also favor sharing the costs to achieve it.

Hint: it's not simply that regional pilots are lined up begging to fly shiny jets for free. It's that every time they demand a fair wage, the flying can easily be taken away and given to a more "compliant" pilot group!

Are you suggesting that anytime a pilot group tries to take action to improve the profession...there are other pilots willing to undercut them by doing the same flying for less?

'member what Pogo said about that?