Why isn't there a union for the Regionals??

[waveflyer]

There should be a national list for regional pilots --- (and one for major pilots) within ALPA.... otherwise you'll continue to see the race to the bottom and the whipsawing continue to a much greater degree than at the majors.

Funny how Mesa does a ridiculously small amount of United flying- but the threat that Mesa will take over the whole industry is always there??/ Control the masses with the few.

 

[CitationUltra]

Maybe some genius has already thought of this, but why isn't there a Union that represents the regionals?? 110 seats or less, a union that looks out for the little guys??

You could call it RAPA, Regional Airlines Pilots Association. I'm sure someone has already thought of this, so why has it not worked??

just curious??

There was, in fact, just such a union, Regional Airline Pilots Association (RAPA). It represented Wings West Airlines and some other pilots prior to and during their merger and eventual absorption into the American Eagle mess.

 

[CitationUltra]

Because 1.95% of a regional salary isn't going to do much. At least the regionals (arguably) have a voice in ALPA, if a regional union was created I have to think we wouldn't stand a chance against a better funded mainline union.

That's right--you don't. The better-funded union is ALPA.

 

[CitationUltra]

Quote: Originally Posted by DX Rick
No to menton the STL-JFK's. 2.5 hours.
CVG-HOU or CVG- MIA...in a 50 seater....all which mainline should be doing.

We shouldn't be doing anything more than 90 minutes.



Hoover, have you flown lately? How about out of the nations top airports? Been delayed? Hmmmm.....

Well, the reason for the massive increase in the numbers of delayed aircraft and the absolutely ridiculous delay times across the nation are due to the rj's. Plain and Simple.

Do I like flying them? Of course. Am I glad to have a job? You bet.

Sure, there might be money in it for the airlines in doing it this way. But at whose expense?

Mainline pilot salary is down. Regional pilot salaries are a joke - especially now that we ARE flying "mainline" routes.

In the past, regional airlines were looked at by most as a stepping stone to the majors. They still are. However, the numbers of pilots that are staying with their respective companies for a "career" at the regional level has increased. Why not - the instability of the industry has led to that.

However, if a regional airline is to be a place to stay and have a decent career - then the pay and retirement benefits should be competitive to the type of flying and routes flown by other carriers, no matter the type of aircraft flown.

By staying with a regional airline for your career, you are saying that aircraft size doesn't matter (which is Fine-no flame please!), then wouldn't it stand to reason that you would want to maximize your pay and benefits for that career?

There are of course QOL issues that may be better at a regional depending on your situation (money isn't everything), however QOL stuff varies at every company, in fact at every industry. Everyone has a different idea on what QOL things are most important to them.

However, we all generally agree on the amount that "we" should receive for our particular job.....An engineer at Apple and one at Microsoft may have different compensation and benefits, but OVERALL it will not be so different. And it certainly will not be below what is generally agreed on industry wide. Otherwise, for most of us QOL stuff will lose out to compensation.

Would I love to fly an 737? Sure! But NOT AT AN REGIONAL AIRLINE SALARY. That is what this industry is moving towards.

In the past when the regionals were flying mostly t-props and the route segments were short, it was acceptable to pay a pilot lower because they REALLY were "regional". The airlines COULD NOT bring in a 737 to podunk regional airport. But, that has all changed. The places where the airline could not bring in the 73, they can bring in an rj, or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5.....

And while "we" would be remiss in not assisting the companies try to make a profit, there is a point where it has to stop.

You graduate from law school and get an entry level job at a law firm. You expect to get paid a certain salary. After 10 years of experience and after being your firms top lawyer(ie. Captain), you move. You go to a bigger, better firm expecting a salary that reflects your overall experience as a lawyer. Now, at the new firm you may not be handling the top cases until you get experience with that company(ie. First officer).......However, you would NOT expect to get paid what you got when you had just graduated law school.

Because of the way this industry pays its pilots - Having more rjs, rj operators, and rj pilots in the overall system LOWERS THE PAY of everyone. If we were paid based on overall experience then it wouldn't matter as much.

The airlines are posting great load factor numbers. However, the use of rjs has increased. The number of total aircraft in the system has greatly increased. But most importantly those aircraft are able to operate at the nations busiest airports, not mostly at podunk regional as in the past. This has created a huge strain on the system.

So, while some of you think that flying an rj sure does beat that C-172 flying, and it does........

Having an increasing nationwide rj fleet flying longer and longer routes does nothing for this industry......Except expand the egos of some........

You are absolutely right in this very astute economic analysis. The transition to smaller jets is but one piece of a broader array of actions that has irrevocably altered the industry and the flying profession over the past thirty years.

The airline companies have achieved exactly what they wanted out of the changes. Staffing costs have been lowered across the board, and thus seat costs have been marginally lowered, while at the same time the influence of labor unions has been systematically diminished.

They also now have large, cheap regional airline facilities that are being deployed to an ever greater degree on networks that were once the routes of the larger carriers. The nature of these carriers is that they will never allow real substantial professional growth and will never provide a professional salary potential, no matter how much wishful thinking--and talking--is expended on it.

And yes, we could see it coming from the mid-1980s on.

 

[CitationUltra]

Let's start by not letting pilots buy the right seat!
And, the ones that do, are not allowed to voice their piehole for 10 years. Got the hint pcl?
What a wonderful world it would be...
rum

Not letting them? How do you propose to do that?

 

[Speedtape]

Maybe some genius has already thought of this, but why isn't there a Union that represents the regionals?? 110 seats or less, a union that looks out for the little guys??

You could call it RAPA, Regional Airlines Pilots Association. I'm sure someone has already thought of this, so why has it not worked??

just curious??

The Regionals or Small Jet Pilots do have a Union that represents Regionals. It's called ALPA. ALPA represents pilots and does it well, even under adverse conditions with an adversarial, pro management political environment.

The question that should be asked, that under the present pro management political environment, what would have happened if 62,000+ pilots had not been represented by ALPA? Can you say minimum wage, no benefits, no work rules, and no method to recover any of it? No one would be living the dream!

Union members need to quit criticizing the institution, roll up your sleeves, and get to work! There is not a perfect alternative, in fact, there is no alternative! The Union, locally or nationally, is only as strong as the solidarity and support of it's membership. We are the Union!

 

[JoeMerchant]

The Regionals or Small Jet Pilots do have a Union that represents Regionals. It's called ALPA. ALPA represents pilots and does it well, even under adverse conditions with an adversarial, pro management political environment.

Speedtape, if you truly believe that, then why did our Capt. rep. (DU) tell me that he was sad to see the RJDC lawsuit settle? He went on to say that the RJDC lawsuit helped ASA out with DALPA and ALPA.... Pennekamp has confirmed this information...... Why do we need to sue our own union to protect our interests? There is a conflict of interest within ALPA and it has to be resolved or it will tear the union apart......

 

[PCL_128]

Speedtape, if you truly believe that, then why did our Capt. rep. (DU) tell me that he was sad to see the RJDC lawsuit settle? He went on to say that the RJDC lawsuit helped ASA out with DALPA and ALPA.... Pennekamp has confirmed this information......

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and DU is a good rep that's worked hard for his pilots, but many other regional reps would disagree with his assessment. I've worked with plenty of regional MECs on different things, and outside of CMR and ASA, I've never heard a rep from another regional MEC say anything positive about the RJDC. The consensus is almost universally negative about that group. People simply don't respect litigious groups.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and DU is a good rep that's worked hard for his pilots, but many other regional reps would disagree with his assessment. I've worked with plenty of regional MECs on different things, and outside of CMR and ASA, I've never heard a rep from another regional MEC say anything positive about the RJDC. The consensus is almost universally negative about that group. People simply don't respect litigious groups.

.....and most of those other MEC's have fallen for jetsforjobs and flowthrough schemes..... ASA and CMR didn't..... that does set us apart and for that I am thankful.......

You probably agree with jetsforjobs and flowthrough schemes.....Many of us don't want to be bumped down when things start to go bad at the mainline.....

DALPA wanted jetsforjobs at ASA and CMR, but according to multiple sources the RJDC lawsuit helped prevent that..... money well spent.......

 

[PCL_128]

You probably agree with jetsforjobs and flowthrough scheme.

Yep, big supporter of them.

 

[waveflyer]

ALL of the strife is a logical conclusion to NOT having a NATIONAL list in the (supposedly) "deregulated" airline world.

There should be one list at the regional level. And one list at the majors. There should be less protection of the weak- and less promotion of inefficiency. (Southwest has the hardest working AND happiest pilots in the country- ala Ayn Rand Atlas Shrugged- there's a reason for that- every airline contract should attempt to model theirs- that or vote communist in the next election)

Don't know where to begin w/ a national list? Start with a few willing carriers... the increased domicile flexibility alone would be worth it. WHY ARE SO MANY AGAINST THIS IDEA? i don't get it. Let's UNIONIZE, and be divided in every way possible- let management use our seniority system against us- then fight each other b/c it's worked out in the only manner that it could....????????

In the deregulated world- the leapfrogging negotiation technique is not to our advantage. It's too competitive an industry and too commodotized.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yep, big supporter of them.

......there you have it folks, PCL128 is a big supporter of Jets4Jobs and flowthroughs...... Some of us don't want anything to do with them..... We have been successful at ASA and CMR......RJDC was a big part of this.....

My job isn't furlough protection for a mainline pilot.......The sooner you ALPA cheerleaders understand that, the sooner we can fix
ALPA... Until then you can forget it........

 

[PCL_128]

......there you have it folks, PCL128 is a big supporter of Jets4Jobs and flowthroughs......

I didn't think that would be a surprise to you. I've been pretty open about my support for such agreements, especially flowthroughs. Didn't we just have this debate a few months ago about the NWA/MSA flowthrough?

My job isn't furlough protection for a mainline pilot

I don't expect it to be, and that's not the kind of flowthrough or J4J that I would support. Both pilot groups need to be protected. Seniority rights are sacred. There is a way to balance things in the interest of both groups. Your knee-jerk reaction to such agreements is one of the reasons that regional and mainline MECs have such problems working together.

 

[Gandalf]

You are absolutely right in this very astute economic analysis. The transition to smaller jets is but one piece of a broader array of actions that has irrevocably altered the industry and the flying profession over the past thirty years.

The airline companies have achieved exactly what they wanted out of the changes. Staffing costs have been lowered across the board, and thus seat costs have been marginally lowered, while at the same time the influence of labor unions has been systematically diminished.

They also now have large, cheap regional airline facilities that are being deployed to an ever greater degree on networks that were once the routes of the larger carriers. The nature of these carriers is that they will never allow real substantial professional growth and will never provide a professional salary potential, no matter how much wishful thinking--and talking--is expended on it.

And yes, we could see it coming from the mid-1980s on.

It is too bad too few of us actually really realize what is going on. Somehow, a lot of us have been brainwashed by some slick talking from the managements. They think that it really matters that a management group says nice things about them and seems to care about them.

They forget or more likely don't know that this is business. Its brutal. Its impersonal. The only way to make this a career to be proud of, is to be proactive and get involved.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Joe Merchant.... your behavior pattern is becomming apearant....

You swear to yourself that you will stop posting on FI.... then days later... you start drinking... and you log on..... posting your drivel wherever you can...

Then you wake up in the morning and and lose more respect for yourself....