Why isn't there a union for the Regionals??

[Speedtape]

Maybe some genius has already thought of this, but why isn't there a Union that represents the regionals?? 110 seats or less, a union that looks out for the little guys??

You could call it RAPA, Regional Airlines Pilots Association. I'm sure someone has already thought of this, so why has it not worked??

just curious??

The Regionals or Small Jet Pilots do have a Union that represents Regionals. It's called ALPA. ALPA represents pilots and does it well, even under adverse conditions with an adversarial, pro management political environment.

The question that should be asked, that under the present pro management political environment, what would have happened if 62,000+ pilots had not been represented by ALPA? Can you say minimum wage, no benefits, no work rules, and no method to recover any of it? No one would be living the dream!

Union members need to quit criticizing the institution, roll up your sleeves, and get to work! There is not a perfect alternative, in fact, there is no alternative! The Union, locally or nationally, is only as strong as the solidarity and support of it's membership. We are the Union!

 

[JoeMerchant]

The Regionals or Small Jet Pilots do have a Union that represents Regionals. It's called ALPA. ALPA represents pilots and does it well, even under adverse conditions with an adversarial, pro management political environment.

Speedtape, if you truly believe that, then why did our Capt. rep. (DU) tell me that he was sad to see the RJDC lawsuit settle? He went on to say that the RJDC lawsuit helped ASA out with DALPA and ALPA.... Pennekamp has confirmed this information...... Why do we need to sue our own union to protect our interests? There is a conflict of interest within ALPA and it has to be resolved or it will tear the union apart......

 

[PCL_128]

Speedtape, if you truly believe that, then why did our Capt. rep. (DU) tell me that he was sad to see the RJDC lawsuit settle? He went on to say that the RJDC lawsuit helped ASA out with DALPA and ALPA.... Pennekamp has confirmed this information......

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and DU is a good rep that's worked hard for his pilots, but many other regional reps would disagree with his assessment. I've worked with plenty of regional MECs on different things, and outside of CMR and ASA, I've never heard a rep from another regional MEC say anything positive about the RJDC. The consensus is almost universally negative about that group. People simply don't respect litigious groups.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and DU is a good rep that's worked hard for his pilots, but many other regional reps would disagree with his assessment. I've worked with plenty of regional MECs on different things, and outside of CMR and ASA, I've never heard a rep from another regional MEC say anything positive about the RJDC. The consensus is almost universally negative about that group. People simply don't respect litigious groups.

.....and most of those other MEC's have fallen for jetsforjobs and flowthrough schemes..... ASA and CMR didn't..... that does set us apart and for that I am thankful.......

You probably agree with jetsforjobs and flowthrough schemes.....Many of us don't want to be bumped down when things start to go bad at the mainline.....

DALPA wanted jetsforjobs at ASA and CMR, but according to multiple sources the RJDC lawsuit helped prevent that..... money well spent.......

 

[PCL_128]

You probably agree with jetsforjobs and flowthrough scheme.

Yep, big supporter of them.

 

[waveflyer]

ALL of the strife is a logical conclusion to NOT having a NATIONAL list in the (supposedly) "deregulated" airline world.

There should be one list at the regional level. And one list at the majors. There should be less protection of the weak- and less promotion of inefficiency. (Southwest has the hardest working AND happiest pilots in the country- ala Ayn Rand Atlas Shrugged- there's a reason for that- every airline contract should attempt to model theirs- that or vote communist in the next election)

Don't know where to begin w/ a national list? Start with a few willing carriers... the increased domicile flexibility alone would be worth it. WHY ARE SO MANY AGAINST THIS IDEA? i don't get it. Let's UNIONIZE, and be divided in every way possible- let management use our seniority system against us- then fight each other b/c it's worked out in the only manner that it could....????????

In the deregulated world- the leapfrogging negotiation technique is not to our advantage. It's too competitive an industry and too commodotized.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yep, big supporter of them.

......there you have it folks, PCL128 is a big supporter of Jets4Jobs and flowthroughs...... Some of us don't want anything to do with them..... We have been successful at ASA and CMR......RJDC was a big part of this.....

My job isn't furlough protection for a mainline pilot.......The sooner you ALPA cheerleaders understand that, the sooner we can fix
ALPA... Until then you can forget it........

 

[PCL_128]

......there you have it folks, PCL128 is a big supporter of Jets4Jobs and flowthroughs......

I didn't think that would be a surprise to you. I've been pretty open about my support for such agreements, especially flowthroughs. Didn't we just have this debate a few months ago about the NWA/MSA flowthrough?

My job isn't furlough protection for a mainline pilot

I don't expect it to be, and that's not the kind of flowthrough or J4J that I would support. Both pilot groups need to be protected. Seniority rights are sacred. There is a way to balance things in the interest of both groups. Your knee-jerk reaction to such agreements is one of the reasons that regional and mainline MECs have such problems working together.

 

[Gandalf]

You are absolutely right in this very astute economic analysis. The transition to smaller jets is but one piece of a broader array of actions that has irrevocably altered the industry and the flying profession over the past thirty years.

The airline companies have achieved exactly what they wanted out of the changes. Staffing costs have been lowered across the board, and thus seat costs have been marginally lowered, while at the same time the influence of labor unions has been systematically diminished.

They also now have large, cheap regional airline facilities that are being deployed to an ever greater degree on networks that were once the routes of the larger carriers. The nature of these carriers is that they will never allow real substantial professional growth and will never provide a professional salary potential, no matter how much wishful thinking--and talking--is expended on it.

And yes, we could see it coming from the mid-1980s on.

It is too bad too few of us actually really realize what is going on. Somehow, a lot of us have been brainwashed by some slick talking from the managements. They think that it really matters that a management group says nice things about them and seems to care about them.

They forget or more likely don't know that this is business. Its brutal. Its impersonal. The only way to make this a career to be proud of, is to be proactive and get involved.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Joe Merchant.... your behavior pattern is becomming apearant....

You swear to yourself that you will stop posting on FI.... then days later... you start drinking... and you log on..... posting your drivel wherever you can...

Then you wake up in the morning and and lose more respect for yourself....

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

There are so many problems with both sides, that only a concerted effort, with real sacrifice will ever fix it.

It's easy for the mainline pilots to say "get better work rules and pay for the regionals". But without real protection of the flying at the regionals, that will never happen.

Look at the Comair strike. It was an abject failure. Whether it was some huge ATA/RATA conspiracy, or if Mother Delta was just being mean, they were NEVER going to allow Comair to raise the bar in any significant way. They were a couple days from shutting down and outsourcing the whole shebang, which is why the settlement happened. It would have a been a better deal for DAL to shut the whole thing down, eat the loss on their investment in Comair, than to allow any real traction for the pilot groups.

Without protection of the flying, you aren't going to get ANYWHERE, because no one group, most especially the backpacked ipod SJS crowd wants to be the first on the chopping block.

The flying for the regionals is simply too mobile. It's simply outsourced lift, and when it costs too much, the airlines pick up the phone can call the next cheaper guy in the phone book .

Nu

 

[Occam's Razor]

Flying protection at the Regionals is entirely possible...and attainable.

But it won't be free. It won't be free because being able to find pilots willing to do the job, in cool, spiffy jets!...for less is worth too much to management.
It will cost $$. Gobs and gobs of $$ ($$$! <--3 "$'s"!!). The issue has always been who will bear the cost of the "fix", known as "Brand Scope".

The RJDC booger-eaters will tell you the mainline guys should pay for it. The mainline guys will tell you both groups should pay for it...the guys who directly benefit from it...and the guys at the mainline.

That causes a problem. The dorks who want 90% of the benefit, but are unwilling to pay for it, refract the issue. They bend it just enough to make it look like ALPA (or whatever union represents the pilots) is derelict in it's duties for not giving Regional pilots what they "deserve".

That's crap.

You want Legacy Scope? Either get hired by a Legacy...or pay for it!

If you could get hired by a Legacy, you would. You either can't, or you've chosen not to. Don't Pi$$ on MY ankles cuz' your luck, personality, or bona fides are lacking.

If you are unwilling to pay for Brand Scope...admit it.

Brand Scope at DAL would run around $800-million over the course of a pilot contract. Your higher-paid brethren at the mainline can be expected to pay a large portion of that cost, because there IS a benefit to relieving the pressure point at the smaller-jet end of your fleet that exists only because some pilots are willing to undercut YOUR rates to do it.

The rest of the cost belongs to those who would benefit most from Brand Scope - the pilots at the Regionals.

That cost is tough to swallow for them because there's not a lot of cushion between existing Regional pay rates...and a refrigerator box nestled under an overpass.

The Comair strike was a success! It demonstrated to everybody that pilots were willing to walk away from their jobs if they thought the deal management was offering was a low-ball offer. Later, the management-friendly bankruptcy laws gave management (with the courts checking their six!) enough leverage to alter the Sophie's Choice the Comair pilots faced. They ate a crappy deal.

That doesn't mean Comair pilots didn't cowboy-up in 2001 and take a stand. They did!

The business model at the Legacies has changed. The new plan is to focus on International flying, and farm-out as much of the domestic system as they can. They'll still operate a fleet of large narrowboy aircraft, because the 15-16 major buisness centers in the US are saturated by the numbers of operations...not the lift.

If you're at a Regional airline because you are trying to put ink in a logbook, you shrug your shoulders at Brand Scope. Sure, it'd be cool...but your plan is to suck it up for a few years, then make the jump to light speed at a Legacy.

If you're at a Regional because you typify professional Darwinism, then Brand Scope is a lower-tier priority as you seek nirvana - $85k a year for 14-days a month of flying.

Utopian plans to alter the strata are inspiring...if you don't have to pay for them.

But you do.

Dang.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'll dang your dang... Occam....

Dang!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Dang.... I can't believe two smart people don't realize how brand scope benefits the mainline pilots also.... What are those Compass payrates?

Downward pressure on the 100 seat and less market affects the mainline even more than the regionals....

 

[PCL_128]

Dang.... I can't believe two smart people don't realize how brand scope benefits the mainline pilots also.... What are those Compass payrates?

Downward pressure on the 100 seat and less market affects the mainline even more than the regionals....

Yes, it benefits both, so both need to contribute to the necessary sacrifices to make it happen, not just the mainline pilots. I believe that is Occam's point.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yes, it benefits both, so both need to contribute to the necessary sacrifices to make it happen, not just the mainline pilots. I believe that is Occam's point.

He is implying that it benefits us more at the regional level.... I don't believe that is true....

In addition, it has to be part of the mainline scope section, since according to ALPA the flying belongs to them......

I'm not opposed to paying for it, but many are.....

 

[Occam's Razor]

Dang.... I can't believe two smart people don't realize how brand scope benefits the mainline pilots also

1. I know you can't. I think it's because you choose to ignore entire passages of some posts. Bits like this: "Your higher-paid brethren at the mainline can be expected to pay a large portion of that cost, because there IS a benefit to relieving the pressure point at the smaller-jet end of your fleet that exists only because some pilots are willing to undercut YOUR rates to do it."

2. Brand Scope benefits mainline pilots ONLY because you would be willing to fly the same jet for less. Were that not an inescapable FACT, we wouldn't be discussing the issue.

Downward pressure on the 100 seat and less market affects the mainline even more than the regionals....

Accurate, but simplistic. Now explain exactly WHY mainline pilots should worry about it.

What are those Compass payrates?

Crappy.

Yet the number of applications rises every week.

Call it "Exhibit A" and understand it. There are thousands of Joe Merchants out there willing to do it.

If it's a path to the Land of Milk & Honey...you'll do it. Walk away from your job until you get paid better and I won't have to take huge pay cuts to achieve Brand Scope. We wouldn't need it!

 

[Occam's Razor]

He is implying that it benefits us more at the regional level.... I don't believe that is true....

Then add "delusional" to your resume.

I'm not opposed to paying for it, but many are.....

Ahhh! A glimmer of rationality!

If most are unwilling to pay for it, then there's a good chance it won't happen. You need to get busy on that, instead of trying to sue your way onto someone else's seniority list. I tried, but was rebuffed by the RJDC founders, who refused to accept the concept that some of the cost should be borne by them.

You call that a "failure of ALPA" caused by the mainline pilots. Wrong villains, bubba!

 

[JoeMerchant]

1. I know you can't. I think it's because you choose to ignore entire passages of some posts. Bits like this: "Your higher-paid brethren at the mainline can be expected to pay a large portion of that cost, because there IS a benefit to relieving the pressure point at the smaller-jet end of your fleet that exists only because some pilots are willing to undercut YOUR rates to do it."

2. Brand Scope benefits mainline pilots ONLY because you would be willing to fly the same jet for less. Were that not an inescapable FACT, we wouldn't be discussing the issue.



Accurate, but simplistic. Now explain exactly WHY mainline pilots should worry about it.



Crappy.

Yet the number of applications rises every week.

Call it "Exhibit A" and understand it. There are thousands of Joe Merchants out there willing to do it.

If it's a path to the Land of Milk & Honey...you'll do it. Walk away from your job until you get paid better and I won't have to take huge pay cuts to achieve Brand Scope. We wouldn't need it!

Hey Occam..... it's called COMPETITION..... It drives down prices and wages.......

ALPA can either stop the COMPETITION within a brand, or we can compete with each other.....

The main reason guys are willing to do it for less is so they can gain experience to become a "real" airline pilot.....If the pay was similar regardless of the size of aircraft, you would see much of this "willing to fly for less" go away.... Having half of the domestic flying classified as "stepping stone" jobs doesn't help any.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Then add "delusional" to your resume.

The mainline pay and workrules had further to fall.... In fact most regionals are still getting payraises while mainline contracts were gutted.... The regionals are also adding jobs while the mainlines lost around 10000 jobs.... The regional job won't get much better without "brand scope", but it won't get any worse either...... Supply and demand will take care of that.... Mainline pay and workrules on the other hand will continue to be pressured by those of us in the basement.....

Ahhh! A glimmer of rationality!

If most are unwilling to pay for it, then there's a good chance it won't happen. You need to get busy on that, instead of trying to sue your way onto someone else's seniority list. I tried, but was rebuffed by the RJDC founders, who refused to accept the concept that some of the cost should be borne by them.

You call that a "failure of ALPA" caused by the mainline pilots. Wrong villains, bubba!

Most pilots at the regional level aren't going to jump on my bandwagon, your bandwagon, ALPA's bandwagon or the RJDC's bandwagon..... They are too busy trying to get to airline pilot Nirvana at the mainline..... They can't be bothered with the "big picture".... Any leadership in this area is going to have to come from ALPA national and the mainline MECs...... otherwise it simply won't happen......