Why isn't there a union for the Regionals??

[DoinTime]

The fact that they haven't updated the majority of the ATC system since the 60's and are still using state of the art vacuum tube equipment has nothing at all to do with it...or the fact that the FAA doesn't have the budget to allow sufficient staffing so we can utilize PRM approaches(haven't been using them in SFO for a long time, even when conditions are ideal...we just get longer flow delays)...or the fact that they(the FAA)haven't even bothered trying to keep up with growth by adding additional runways or airports when the need has been obvious for many years...

All the delays can simply be attributed to the rj's...

NOT!!!!

Certainly the national airspace system is woefully out of date. That being said the FAA has never announced that there is a plan to fix the problem. We are currently dealing with a system that has finite capacity and airlines have exceeded that capacity.

The argument can always be made that technological improvements or staffing increases could alleviate the problem but who is going to pay for it? The airlines aren't going to pay and I'm certainly not willing to increase my taxes so airlines can reap the benefits.

If airlines want free reign over their scheduled capacity they need to step up to the plate and pay to fix the system. Until then the problems with chronic delays are their fault.

 

[Gandalf]

Hello? This is Earth Calling!

Uhm, yeah...the "massive increase in the numbers of delayed aircraft and the absolutly ridiculous delay times across the nation are due to the RJ's. Plain and simple."



The fact that they haven't updated the majority of the ATC system since the 60's and are still using state of the art vacuum tube equipment has nothing at all to do with it...or the fact that the FAA doesn't have the budget to allow sufficient staffing so we can utilize PRM approaches(haven't been using them in SFO for a long time, even when conditions are ideal...we just get longer flow delays)...or the fact that they(the FAA)haven't even bothered trying to keep up with growth by adding additional runways or airports when the need has been obvious for many years...

All the delays can simply be attributed to the rj's...



NOT!!!!

So, yes there are other things contributing to the delays. But, what are you saying....That the rjs aren't MOST of the problem???? WTF???

Where do you fly? Have you even flown anywhere East of the Mississippi? WTF????

Rjs are everywhere....Simple economics.....A major can contract out its flying to a regional, serve the same routes out of the same MAJOR airports (ORD, ATL, LGA, EWR, IAD, etc.....), fly the rjs on 3:30-4:30 hour flights (in an rj - WTF!?) and have lower costs. Fuel and Labor. A regional airline crew costs a lot cheaper than a mainline crew.

Meanwhile, in order to get the number of seats between 2 city pairs from the MAJOR airports in the US., the major has to/or can - run more rj flights.

That means THERE ARE MORE AIRCRAFT FLYING BETWEEN ORD AND X, ATL AND X, LGA AND X, ETC. ETC. ETC.

MORE AIRCRAFT (RJS) THAT THE ATC SYSTEM CAN'T HANDLE.

Yes, the ATC system needs overhaul, however the ones contributing to the problem (THE AIRLINES) are not willing to fix the problem ($$$$$). BECAUSE THEIR RESPONSIBILITY IS TO THE SHAREHOLDERS. AND BY RUNNING MULTIPLE RJS(EVEN WITH DELAYS) IT IS CHEAPER THAN FLYING MAINLINE FLIGHTS.

So, call your congressman and lobby to get more $$ for the FAA, so that it can be overhauled. Meanwhile airlines will continue to add rj capacity to the skies.

By adding more rj capacity, we drive the OVERALL salary range of the industry DOWN.

So, although fixing the ATC is a valid and important concern, the unchecked proliferation of rjs in the US airspace system is the more important problem in todays industry. Whether you fix ATC or not, the delays will NOT go away with an increasing number of a/c (rjs) in the skies.

The regional airline has changed, as a direct result of the advent of the technology of the rj. The rj has allowed the majors to serve major markets at a lower cost to THEM. Although, that is a great thing in some respects.....because of the way the airline industry structures the pay for the pilots, the rj and regional flying should have limits placed on them. Otherwise we do a disservice to ALL.

 

[Avpilot]

I seem to remember expressjet doing Toronto to Houston?..Isnt that over 4 hrs??? Yikes!!!...Pass the gin & tonic for that ride!!! Better yet just get the tow bar and smash my skull in!....

You are correct...but that's not even the longest we do. Up until CAL made the blunder of giving us so many XRs, we did IAH-BOI, IAH-PSP, IAH-BFL, EWR-OKC, etc. I think we still do some of those. IAH-BOI-IAH was the best day trip...7:53 block.

Currently we still do some LAX-Mexico (usually QRO or BJX)-IAH redeyes. Those are some long flights. I think the Delta Connection LAX-Zijuatinejo is one of the longer ones now too.

We're doing the same types of routes the DC-9 guys used to do....thank God we're not bringing home $150/hr like they were....man that would suck.

Tim

 

[Nevets]

Maybe some genius has already thought of this, but why isn't there a Union that represents the regionals?? 110 seats or less, a union that looks out for the little guys??

You could call it RAPA, Regional Airlines Pilots Association. I'm sure someone has already thought of this, so why has it not worked??

just curious??

There is a union for regionals...its called ALPA.

By the way, the problem with congestion due to lack of runway capacity. It is not the job of airlines to increase runway capacity. This is the job of the federal governemnt. Just like automobile congestion between cities required the government to build highways, increased air traffice requires the government to increase runway capacity. You don't see anyone telling the commuters and truckers not to travel in highways in places like Los Angeles, so you shouldnt see anyone telling anybody when where they should fly.

 

[DoinTime]

You don't see anyone telling the commuters and truckers not to travel in highways in places like Los Angeles, so you shouldnt see anyone telling anybody when where they should fly.

Are you saying that delays are not common on I40 westbound heading out of LA during rush hour?

The difference between airspace and the freeways is that Congress is put on high alert when some a-hole puts 2+ hours of footage on YouTube while they are trapped in the back of an RJ. Seemingly, nobody cares if I'm trapped in LA traffic for 3 hours just trying to get heck out of that wacked city.

 

[Nevets]

Are you saying that delays are not common on I40 westbound heading out of LA during rush hour?

The difference between airspace and the freeways is that Congress is put on high alert when some a-hole puts 2+ hours of footage on YouTube while they are trapped in the back of an RJ. Seemingly, nobody cares if I'm trapped in LA traffic for 3 hours just trying to get heck out of that wacked city.

I probably did a poor job of making my point. But yes, there are delays on highways in all major cities in this country. My point being that in the case of highways, you don't hear anyone saying that commuters and truckers should stop driving in certain cities or drive at different hours. The interstate highways are the result of the government meeting the demands of commerce (not saying that there is no highway congestion, just saying that there was a time before interstate highways and even railroads). They need to do the same with runway capacity. Government should facilitate commerce not the other way around!

 

[lookin4better]

Gandalf,

Great post. Couldn't have said it better.

C27

I second that! Gandlalf and PCL are dead on.....Too many RJ!

Dont get all puffy chested over this....it is TRUE and its a FACT...its time to shrink the regionals back down to what they were initally made for

 

[Nevets]

I second that! Gandlalf and PCL are dead on.....Too many RJ!

Dont get all puffy chested over this....it is TRUE and its a FACT...its time to shrink the regionals back down to what they were initally made for

You mean not enough runway capacity. Its the government's responsibility to facilitate commerce. Not the other way around. That is why no one says there are too many trucks on the road.

 

[PCL_128]

You mean not enough runway capacity. Its the government's responsibility to facilitate commerce. Not the other way around. That is why no one says there are too many trucks on the road.

There are plenty of runways and gates for the right size of airplanes. Nobody says that there are too many trucks on the road because you don't see trucking companies outsourcing their business to 100 guys with pickup trucks instead of two guys with 18-wheelers. That's the equivalent of what the airlines have done. There is absolutely no excuse for running RJs out of places like LGA and DCA to hub airports.

 

[Nevets]

There are plenty of runways and gates for the right size of airplanes. Nobody says that there are too many trucks on the road because you don't see trucking companies outsourcing their business to 100 guys with pickup trucks instead of two guys with 18-wheelers. That's the equivalent of what the airlines have done. There is absolutely no excuse for running RJs out of places like LGA and DCA to hub airports.

All Im saying is that its not the government's business to tell private sector companies where and what they can and cant fly at certain hours of the day. Again, if the market demands it, the government should facilitate that commerce, NOT the other way around.

Plain and simple, there is not enough runway capacity.

 

[PCL_128]

All Im saying is that its not the government's business to tell private sector companies where and what they can and cant fly at certain hours of the day. Again, if the market demands it, the government should facilitate that commerce, NOT the other way around.

Plain and simple, there is not enough runway capacity.

And where are you going to put these numerous new runways and gates? Been to LGA lately? Not exactly a lot of space. How 'bout DCA? Same problem. MDW? We barely have enough room to clear the houses at the end of the runway on takeoff.

Personally, I'm a big fan of regulation in aviation. The airlines are now the backbone of the national economy. Allowing the airlines to behave in whatever manner they choose and clog up the limited space we have with their ridiculous little RJs that are merely a tool of breaking mainline labor is absurd. I'd love to see a return of the CAB and a completely regulated industry. If the airlines continue with their stupidity, then that's exactly what we'll see happen years down the road when they've completely crippled the transportation system with more and more RJs.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

There is a union for regionals...its called ALPA.

By the way, the problem with congestion due to lack of runway capacity. It is not the job of airlines to increase runway capacity. This is the job of the federal governemnt. Just like automobile congestion between cities required the government to build highways, increased air traffice requires the government to increase runway capacity. You don't see anyone telling the commuters and truckers not to travel in highways in places like Los Angeles, so you shouldnt see anyone telling anybody when where they should fly.

Exactly!!

 

[Gr82Aviate]

And where are you going to put these numerous new runways and gates? Been to LGA lately? Not exactly a lot of space. How 'bout DCA? Same problem. MDW? We barely have enough room to clear the houses at the end of the runway on takeoff.

Personally, I'm a big fan of regulation in aviation. The airlines are now the backbone of the national economy. Allowing the airlines to behave in whatever manner they choose and clog up the limited space we have with their ridiculous little RJs that are merely a tool of breaking mainline labor is absurd. I'd love to see a return of the CAB and a completely regulated industry. If the airlines continue with their stupidity, then that's exactly what we'll see happen years down the road when they've completely crippled the transportation system with more and more RJs.

Instead of adding airports and capacity that is much needed, we've closed dozens and dozens of airports every year for the last several decades...When opportunity knocked and military fields became available for commercial use, time after time the ball was dropped and the ever diminishing resource was squandered to make way for more shopping centers, or houses, or commercial and office space! This has played out across the nation, and once these former airfields and wide open areas that were once available to allow expansion are wasted they are gone forever...this is a foolish waste of existing resources, and the short sighted decisions to continue allowing it have been going on for far too long!

 

[PCL_128]

Instead of adding airports and capacity that is much needed, we've closed dozens and dozens of airports every year for the last several decades...When opportunity knocked and military fields became available for commercial use, time after time the ball was dropped and the ever diminishing resource was squandered to make way for more shopping centers, or houses, or commercial and office space! This has played out across the nation, and once these former airfields and wide open areas that were once available to allow expansion are wasted they are gone forever...this is a foolish waste of existing resources, and the short sighted decisions to continue allowing it have been going on for far too long!

Most passengers, especially business passengers, don't want to fly to secondary airports. Business travelers want to fly in to LGA. They don't want to fly to ISP, JFK, or anywhere else. They want LGA. So the airlines give them that service, but they're too cheap to pay mainline pilots, so they outsource the flying to a bunch of RJs. Adding secondary airports doesn't solve the problem. Unless you can add concrete to LGA, then the congestion will not ease, because passengers will continue to demand their service to the airport right near the center of American (and world) business. The same goes for DCA, MDW, ORD, BOS, etc... These are the airports that passengers want service to. Adding concrete at new airports outside of these areas will not do much to ease congestion. At best, it might be a 5-year solution, allowing the small amount of leisure passengers to use those new airports. After that short period, the business demand will have grown to the point where the same problem rears its ugly head again. The only solution is appropriate regulation of slots, aircraft size, etc...

 

[Nevets]

And where are you going to put these numerous new runways and gates? Been to LGA lately? Not exactly a lot of space. How 'bout DCA? Same problem. MDW? We barely have enough room to clear the houses at the end of the runway on takeoff.

Personally, I'm a big fan of regulation in aviation. The airlines are now the backbone of the national economy. Allowing the airlines to behave in whatever manner they choose and clog up the limited space we have with their ridiculous little RJs that are merely a tool of breaking mainline labor is absurd. I'd love to see a return of the CAB and a completely regulated industry. If the airlines continue with their stupidity, then that's exactly what we'll see happen years down the road when they've completely crippled the transportation system with more and more RJs.

There were and are many current and ex-military fields that could easily be converted. Being from SoCal, El Toro MCAS, Norton AFB, Los Alamitos AAF, Palmdale AF Plant, George AFB, March AFB, Camp Pendleton MCAS, North Island NAS, Imperial Beach NAS, and Mirimar NAS come to mind. Many people in the LA area drive to "secondary" airports like Ontario, Burbank, Santa Ana, and Long Beach to avoid the congestion in LAX. SWA has been capitalizing on this for years with BUR, OAK, SJC, ONT, BWI, MHT, PVD, DAL, HOU, ISP. Plus many airports do have the land to build more runways like IAH (ATL for example just got a new runway).

You are getting two separate issues confused. The air traffic congestion and the airline industry's use of the "RJ." Trust me, I wish that the mainline airlines would have flown ALL jet aircraft and only regionals to operate turboprops.

The solution is not to impede the free market by having our government tell us what is best for us but to facilitate the free market forces (by the way, deregulation has created more jobs including pilot positions by allowing more people the ability to fly). Its just our inept government not keeping up with free market forces.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

There were and are many ex-military fields that come to mind. Being from SoCal, El Toro MCAS comes to mind. Many people in the LA area drive to "secondary" airports like Ontario, Burbank, Santa Ana, and Long Beach to avoid the congestion in LAX. SWA has been capitalizing on this for years with BUR, OAK, SJC, ONT, BWI, MHT, PVD, DAL, HOU, ISP. Plus many airports do have the land to build more runways (ATL for example just got a new runway).

You are getting two separate issues confused. The air traffic congestion and the airline industry's use of the "RJ." Trust me, I wish that the mainline airlines would have flown ALL jet aircraft and only regionals to operate turboprops.

The solution is not to impede the free market by having our government tell us what is best for us but to facilitate the free market forces (by the way, deregulation has created more jobs including pilot positions by allowing more people the ability to fly). Its just our inept government not keeping up with free market forces.

Then there's the decades long stalled out debate about what to do about SAN...a too short, single runway in the 6th largest city in the country. They've spent millions of our tax dollars for one study after another that came up with numerous options, only to do NOTHING about it!

 

[Nevets]

Then there's the decades long stalled out debate about what to do about SAN...a too short, single runway in the 6th largest city in the country. They've spent millions of our tax dollars for one study after another that came up with numerous options, only to do NOTHING about it!

I edited my last post with a solution to that problem.

 

[PCL_128]

There were and are many current and ex-military fields that could easily be converted. Being from SoCal, El Toro MCAS, Norton AFB, Los Alamitos AAF, Palmdale AF Plant, George AFB, March AFB, Camp Pendleton MCAS, North Island NAS, Imperial Beach NAS, and Mirimar NAS come to mind. Many people in the LA area drive to "secondary" airports like Ontario, Burbank, Santa Ana, and Long Beach to avoid the congestion in LAX. SWA has been capitalizing on this for years with BUR, OAK, SJC, ONT, BWI, MHT, PVD, DAL, HOU, ISP. Plus many airports do have the land to build more runways like IAH (ATL for example just got a new runway).

There are certainly some markets that can make use of secondary airports. My airline utilizes CAK instead of CLE and HOU instead of IAH, but those are limited circumstances. The SoCal market is about the only extremely-high-density market that works as you're suggesting. The Northeast market simply won't work that way. Business travelers demand LGA, BOS, DCA, BWI, etc... They won't accept substitutes, and these are the markets that need the relief the most, not Houston and Dallas.

The solution is not to impede the free market by having our government tell us what is best for us but to facilitate the free market forces (by the way, deregulation has created more jobs including pilot positions by allowing more people the ability to fly). Its just our inept government not keeping up with free market forces.

It always pains me to see an ALPA rep defending deregulation. I know you must have read Flying the Line, Vol II at least once. Deregulation is the singular catalyst that has sent this profession down the sh*&er. The sooner we reregulate, the better.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

So, yes there are other things contributing to the delays. But, what are you saying....That the rjs aren't MOST of the problem???? WTF???

Where do you fly? Have you even flown anywhere East of the Mississippi? WTF????

Rjs are everywhere....Simple economics.....A major can contract out its flying to a regional, serve the same routes out of the same MAJOR airports (ORD, ATL, LGA, EWR, IAD, etc.....), fly the rjs on 3:30-4:30 hour flights (in an rj - WTF!?) and have lower costs. Fuel and Labor. A regional airline crew costs a lot cheaper than a mainline crew.

Meanwhile, in order to get the number of seats between 2 city pairs from the MAJOR airports in the US., the major has to/or can - run more rj flights.

That means THERE ARE MORE AIRCRAFT FLYING BETWEEN ORD AND X, ATL AND X, LGA AND X, ETC. ETC. ETC.

MORE AIRCRAFT (RJS) THAT THE ATC SYSTEM CAN'T HANDLE.

Yes, the ATC system needs overhaul, however the ones contributing to the problem (THE AIRLINES) are not willing to fix the problem ($$$$$). BECAUSE THEIR RESPONSIBILITY IS TO THE SHAREHOLDERS. AND BY RUNNING MULTIPLE RJS(EVEN WITH DELAYS) IT IS CHEAPER THAN FLYING MAINLINE FLIGHTS.

So, call your congressman and lobby to get more $$ for the FAA, so that it can be overhauled. Meanwhile airlines will continue to add rj capacity to the skies.

By adding more rj capacity, we drive the OVERALL salary range of the industry DOWN.

So, although fixing the ATC is a valid and important concern, the unchecked proliferation of rjs in the US airspace system is the more important problem in todays industry. Whether you fix ATC or not, the delays will NOT go away with an increasing number of a/c (rjs) in the skies.

The regional airline has changed, as a direct result of the advent of the technology of the rj. The rj has allowed the majors to serve major markets at a lower cost to THEM. Although, that is a great thing in some respects.....because of the way the airline industry structures the pay for the pilots, the rj and regional flying should have limits placed on them. Otherwise we do a disservice to ALL.

Yeah, that's it, I've never been East of the Mississippi...since I used to fly corporate all over the planet, I think it's safe to say in addition to flying East of the Mississippi, I've more likely than not been a lot of places you haven't!


What I was trying to point out to you was that RJ's are not soley to blame for delays, in fact it's far from the only problem...In addition to the antiquated FAA equipment, and lack of spending on infrastructure, you might want to open your eyes to the world around you and acknowledge the rapid growth of corporate aviation and the huge increase in numbers from fractional operators that were barely a blip on the radar a decade ago!

 

[DoinTime]

I probably did a poor job of making my point. But yes, there are delays on highways in all major cities in this country. My point being that in the case of highways, you don't hear anyone saying that commuters and truckers should stop driving in certain cities or drive at different hours. The interstate highways are the result of the government meeting the demands of commerce (not saying that there is no highway congestion, just saying that there was a time before interstate highways and even railroads). They need to do the same with runway capacity. Government should facilitate commerce not the other way around!

The only time government should facilitate commerce is when the potential tax revenues exceed the construction costs. Airlines don't want to increase tax generating capacity. They want to increase frequencies and reduce gauge. There is no upside for system improvements from the government point of view.

The correlation between airtraffic congestion and highway congestion is really quite similar. In both situations increasing the amount of concrete available will likely address the problems. The problem is getting the concrete where people want it. Like PCL says above, nobody wants to go to ISP. They want to go to LGA and they don't have space for more concrete. Likewise, a new interstate across Death Valley would do little ease traffic in the LA basin.

Somehow people seem to accept supply and demand for their ground travel needs. If a certain route is unbearably congested they look for other routes, ride mass transit, carpool, or just don't go. This concept is lost on air travelers though who have the "entitlement" attitude that their $100 ticket should provide them a seemless travel experience.

FWIW: If my memory serves me right the interstate highway system was conceived for the use of the military and to provide jobs to a largely unemployed America. Either way, huge tax revenues have been generated from their construction.