Why isn't there a union for the Regionals??

[regionaltard]

Heyas RT,

You are certainly correct. The IBT has the big guns, big connections and big money to make it happen.

There is no way on Spaghetti's green earth that the IBT could pull this off with in-house "talent." I'd cite the fact that they haven't even tried yet as proof positive.

 

[JohnnyP]

.....

Man I thought we did long hauls going from Charlotte out to N.W. Arkansas or up to New England or Canada. I'm curious who is flying the RJs on 4 hour runs.

I seem to remember expressjet doing Toronto to Houston?..Isnt that over 4 hrs??? Yikes!!!...Pass the gin & tonic for that ride!!! Better yet just get the tow bar and smash my skull in!....

 

[flythere]

Heyas RT,

You are certainly correct. The IBT has the big guns, big connections and big money to make it happen.

Imagine the power you could bring to bear on an airline when you say "not going to bagain? No problemo, but looks like all your parts, food and other deliveries are going to be a little late". Imagine replacement engines or parts getting "lost" in transit.

But as always, the pilots are their own worst enemy by considering themselves "white collar" and above the garden variety "truckers". While truckers know the value of supporting each other, how many pilots (other than mabye UPS guys) do you know that would consider going out on strike to support the truck drivers?

But, by the same token, pilots are very hands on, and they don't like having shots called by non-pilots from some head office somewhere. The IBT is too gigantic and rigid of an organization to provide any flexibility like this. That, and the failure to adapt to the RLA (versis the NLRA), resulted in the IBT representation of pilots and flight attendants having had mixed results at best.

It is this failure of "the meeting of the minds" that has led to no viable alternative to ALPA. Besides, both are AFL-CIO unions, and they have a no-poaching rule. The FA's at NWA had to wait it out two years with an independent union after they ditched the IBT before they could vote the AFA in.

Nu

You seem to have the right idea! Too bad the IBT couldn't have pulled it off! Your description of us pilots seems to right on the money, even though I hate to admit it!!!

Thanks for the input!!!

 

[hoover]

Secondly, it is in EVERYONE's best interest for the regionals to not survive, much less expand. We need these passengers flying on mainline birds.

Nope, just the pilots'.

 

[hoover]

No to menton the STL-JFK's. 2.5 hours.
CVG-HOU or CVG- MIA...in a 50 seater....all which mainline should be doing.

We shouldn't be doing anything more than 90 minutes.

Why? Because you said so? Because that's the way it was done in the past, so we should always do it that way? The airlines wouldn't be doing it this way if there wasn't money to be made.

 

[Rally]

I have a valid question.

Delta flies a MD-8* or something from central florida to Cinnci. So does Comair. Do the pax same price for the ticket? Or is it cheaper because they are flying on a regional?

I am looking for real answers not jokes or spam.
Take care

 

[PCL_128]

Besides, both are AFL-CIO unions, and they have a no-poaching rule.

The IBT is no longer affiliated with the AFL-CIO. Haven't been in a couple of years. They left and stiffed the Federation for millions of dollars of dues that they still haven't paid back.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I have a valid question.

Delta flies a MD-8* or something from central florida to Cinnci. So does Comair. Do the pax same price for the ticket? Or is it cheaper because they are flying on a regional?

I am looking for real answers not jokes or spam.
Take care

The short answer: Yes.

The long answer: Depends.

Airline seats are sold in "buckets", which are a certain number of seats sold a certain time before the flight for a certain price. Depending on the city-pair (business or recreation orientation) the buckets vary...in size, price, and timing.

If the mainline a/c is being used as the "primary" bucket provider for the city-pair, the RJ, with it's fewer/smaller buckets is an add-on to either augment lift, or to provide a sync'd feed for a bank of flying in/out of the hub.

If the RJ is the optimized lift provider, the mainline jet is used to provide larger buckets at certain times-of-day.

The wonks in the Marketing Department live and die by their ability to calculate optimized buckets for each city-pair.

If there is a lot of competition on the city-pair, some buckets are used as "tags" to lure pax bound for destinations beyond the hub.

In most cases, the ticket price is the same...but the pricing model stopped being predictable in 1978.

 

[Occam's Razor]

A Regional Pilots association?

It'd be fun to watch!

If you think the demographics and priorities of mainline pilots are problematic...you'd see a real conflict between the "moving's" and "staying's" at the regional level.

 

[Captain Morgan]

I seem to remember expressjet doing Toronto to Houston?..Isnt that over 4 hrs??? Yikes!!!...Pass the gin & tonic for that ride!!! Better yet just get the tow bar and smash my skull in!....

Yup, I used to do it all the time in an XR. My pairing on day four would be YYZ-IAH, IAH-YYZ, YYZ-CLE. On those two legs to/from YYZ, we found "studying" was the best method to combat boredom. One time we were going from YYZ-IAH and had to divert to Tyler, TX for fuel after our routing got fooled with due to weather. Definetely not a regional airline route.

CM

 

[dojetdriver]

Yup, I used to do it all the time in an XR. My pairing on day four would be YYZ-IAH, IAH-YYZ, YYZ-CLE. On those two legs to/from YYZ, we found "studying" was the best method to combat boredom. One time we were going from YYZ-IAH and had to divert to Tyler, TX for fuel after our routing got fooled with due to weather. Definetely not a regional airline route.

CM

Or better yet, YYZ-IAH-GDL. Yep, we are just regional airline pilots, flying small hops. Hitting 3 countries in one day.

 

[regionaltard]

A Regional Pilots association?

It'd be fun to watch!

If you think the demographics and priorities of mainline pilots are problematic...you'd see a real conflict between the "moving's" and "staying's" at the regional level.

If decent representation was able to significantly reduce the a$$rape coefficient in the equation I think that the volatility you've mentioned would be quite a bit lower. As long as there's an element of desperation involved in escaping the underclass management will continue to cash in.

 

[NuGuy]

A Regional Pilots association?

It'd be fun to watch!

If you think the demographics and priorities of mainline pilots are problematic...you'd see a real conflict between the "moving's" and "staying's" at the regional level.

Heyas Occam,

I got to watch that at two different places.

The irony was that the "Staying's" had the right idea. It was my fellow "leavings" who were more than willing to sell out.

Youth is wasted on the young....

Nu

 

[lookin4better]

Well, there are a couple problems with that...

First off, 110 seats or less? That is nationwide mainline narrowbody feed! That is not "regional" flying! That is "outsourced" flying and nothing else. CRJs flying 3-4 hour flights between major cities and major hubs is not regional by any sense of the word.

Secondly, it is in EVERYONE's best interest for the regionals to not survive, much less expand. We need these passengers flying on mainline birds.

One of the smartest things I have heard on FI....period

 

[regionaltard]

One of the smartest things I have heard on FI....period

Well, except for the fact that aircraft gauge will always be driven by economics rather than the wishes of pilots. Unless of course you're willing to acknowledge that the economics of the regional industry are in large part a construct of the wishes of pilots. The we're callin' the shots, u betcha.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The irony was that the "Staying's" had the right idea. It was my fellow "leavings" who were more than willing to sell out.

Youth is wasted on the young....

I agree. I don't have a problem with an "RAPA" per se. If the membership is willing to accept the trade-offs in terms of services available...in exchange for a more narrowly-focused set of Association objectives: Good for them!

The built-in problem is the same that ALPA has right now: Long-term priorities differ within the membership. Abandoning ALPA in the belief that everyone will magically share common goals under a new organization is foolish.

 

[Gandalf]

Quote: Originally Posted by DX Rick
No to menton the STL-JFK's. 2.5 hours.
CVG-HOU or CVG- MIA...in a 50 seater....all which mainline should be doing.

We shouldn't be doing anything more than 90 minutes.

Why? Because you said so? Because that's the way it was done in the past, so we should always do it that way? The airlines wouldn't be doing it this way if there wasn't money to be made.

Hoover, have you flown lately? How about out of the nations top airports? Been delayed? Hmmmm.....

Well, the reason for the massive increase in the numbers of delayed aircraft and the absolutely ridiculous delay times across the nation are due to the rj's. Plain and Simple.

Do I like flying them? Of course. Am I glad to have a job? You bet.

Sure, there might be money in it for the airlines in doing it this way. But at whose expense?

Mainline pilot salary is down. Regional pilot salaries are a joke - especially now that we ARE flying "mainline" routes.

In the past, regional airlines were looked at by most as a stepping stone to the majors. They still are. However, the numbers of pilots that are staying with their respective companies for a "career" at the regional level has increased. Why not - the instability of the industry has led to that.

However, if a regional airline is to be a place to stay and have a decent career - then the pay and retirement benefits should be competitive to the type of flying and routes flown by other carriers, no matter the type of aircraft flown.

By staying with a regional airline for your career, you are saying that aircraft size doesn't matter (which is Fine-no flame please!), then wouldn't it stand to reason that you would want to maximize your pay and benefits for that career?

There are of course QOL issues that may be better at a regional depending on your situation (money isn't everything), however QOL stuff varies at every company, in fact at every industry. Everyone has a different idea on what QOL things are most important to them.

However, we all generally agree on the amount that "we" should receive for our particular job.....An engineer at Apple and one at Microsoft may have different compensation and benefits, but OVERALL it will not be so different. And it certainly will not be below what is generally agreed on industry wide. Otherwise, for most of us QOL stuff will lose out to compensation.

Would I love to fly an 737? Sure! But NOT AT AN REGIONAL AIRLINE SALARY. That is what this industry is moving towards.

In the past when the regionals were flying mostly t-props and the route segments were short, it was acceptable to pay a pilot lower because they REALLY were "regional". The airlines COULD NOT bring in a 737 to podunk regional airport. But, that has all changed. The places where the airline could not bring in the 73, they can bring in an rj, or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5.....

And while "we" would be remiss in not assisting the companies try to make a profit, there is a point where it has to stop.

You graduate from law school and get an entry level job at a law firm. You expect to get paid a certain salary. After 10 years of experience and after being your firms top lawyer(ie. Captain), you move. You go to a bigger, better firm expecting a salary that reflects your overall experience as a lawyer. Now, at the new firm you may not be handling the top cases until you get experience with that company(ie. First officer).......However, you would NOT expect to get paid what you got when you had just graduated law school.

Because of the way this industry pays its pilots - Having more rjs, rj operators, and rj pilots in the overall system LOWERS THE PAY of everyone. If we were paid based on overall experience then it wouldn't matter as much.

The airlines are posting great load factor numbers. However, the use of rjs has increased. The number of total aircraft in the system has greatly increased. But most importantly those aircraft are able to operate at the nations busiest airports, not mostly at podunk regional as in the past. This has created a huge strain on the system.

So, while some of you think that flying an rj sure does beat that C-172 flying, and it does........

Having an increasing nationwide rj fleet flying longer and longer routes does nothing for this industry......Except expand the egos of some........

 

[Caspian27]

Gandalf,

Great post. Couldn't have said it better.

C27

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Quote: Originally Posted by DX Rick
No to menton the STL-JFK's. 2.5 hours.
CVG-HOU or CVG- MIA...in a 50 seater....all which mainline should be doing.

We shouldn't be doing anything more than 90 minutes.



Hoover, have you flown lately? How about out of the nations top airports? Been delayed? Hmmmm.....

"Well, the reason for the massive increase in the numbers of delayed aircraft and the absolutely ridiculous delay times across the nation are due to the rj's. Plain and Simple."

Do I like flying them? Of course. Am I glad to have a job? You bet.

Sure, there might be money in it for the airlines in doing it this way. But at whose expense?

Mainline pilot salary is down. Regional pilot salaries are a joke - especially now that we ARE flying "mainline" routes.

In the past, regional airlines were looked at by most as a stepping stone to the majors. They still are. However, the numbers of pilots that are staying with their respective companies for a "career" at the regional level has increased. Why not - the instability of the industry has led to that.

However, if a regional airline is to be a place to stay and have a decent career - then the pay and retirement benefits should be competitive to the type of flying and routes flown by other carriers, no matter the type of aircraft flown.

By staying with a regional airline for your career, you are saying that aircraft size doesn't matter (which is Fine-no flame please!), then wouldn't it stand to reason that you would want to maximize your pay and benefits for that career?

There are of course QOL issues that may be better at a regional depending on your situation (money isn't everything), however QOL stuff varies at every company, in fact at every industry. Everyone has a different idea on what QOL things are most important to them.

However, we all generally agree on the amount that "we" should receive for our particular job.....An engineer at Apple and one at Microsoft may have different compensation and benefits, but OVERALL it will not be so different. And it certainly will not be below what is generally agreed on industry wide. Otherwise, for most of us QOL stuff will lose out to compensation.

Would I love to fly an 737? Sure! But NOT AT AN REGIONAL AIRLINE SALARY. That is what this industry is moving towards.

In the past when the regionals were flying mostly t-props and the route segments were short, it was acceptable to pay a pilot lower because they REALLY were "regional". The airlines COULD NOT bring in a 737 to podunk regional airport. But, that has all changed. The places where the airline could not bring in the 73, they can bring in an rj, or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5.....

And while "we" would be remiss in not assisting the companies try to make a profit, there is a point where it has to stop.

You graduate from law school and get an entry level job at a law firm. You expect to get paid a certain salary. After 10 years of experience and after being your firms top lawyer(ie. Captain), you move. You go to a bigger, better firm expecting a salary that reflects your overall experience as a lawyer. Now, at the new firm you may not be handling the top cases until you get experience with that company(ie. First officer).......However, you would NOT expect to get paid what you got when you had just graduated law school.

Because of the way this industry pays its pilots - Having more rjs, rj operators, and rj pilots in the overall system LOWERS THE PAY of everyone. If we were paid based on overall experience then it wouldn't matter as much.

The airlines are posting great load factor numbers. However, the use of rjs has increased. The number of total aircraft in the system has greatly increased. But most importantly those aircraft are able to operate at the nations busiest airports, not mostly at podunk regional as in the past. This has created a huge strain on the system.

So, while some of you think that flying an rj sure does beat that C-172 flying, and it does........

Having an increasing nationwide rj fleet flying longer and longer routes does nothing for this industry......Except expand the egos of some........

Uhm, yeah...the "massive increase in the numbers of delayed aircraft and the absolutly ridiculous delay times across the nation are due to the RJ's. Plain and simple."



The fact that they haven't updated the majority of the ATC system since the 60's and are still using state of the art vacuum tube equipment has nothing at all to do with it...or the fact that the FAA doesn't have the budget to allow sufficient staffing so we can utilize PRM approaches(haven't been using them in SFO for a long time, even when conditions are ideal...we just get longer flow delays)...or the fact that they(the FAA)haven't even bothered trying to keep up with growth by adding additional runways or airports when the need has been obvious for many years...

All the delays can simply be attributed to the rj's...



NOT!!!!

 

[PCL_128]

Face facts. The delays in the Northeast are largely due to overcrowding caused by too many RJs. We certainly need to fix the other issues you mention, but the delays in the busiest markets in this country could be drastically reduced if a minimum number of seats per aircraft was specified for each slot at airports like LGA and DCA.