Why isn't there a union for the Regionals??

[flythere]

Maybe some genius has already thought of this, but why isn't there a Union that represents the regionals?? 110 seats or less, a union that looks out for the little guys??

You could call it RAPA, Regional Airlines Pilots Association. I'm sure someone has already thought of this, so why has it not worked??

just curious??

 

[flyf15]

Well, there are a couple problems with that...

First off, 110 seats or less? That is nationwide mainline narrowbody feed! That is not "regional" flying! That is "outsourced" flying and nothing else. CRJs flying 3-4 hour flights between major cities and major hubs is not regional by any sense of the word.

Secondly, it is in EVERYONE's best interest for the regionals to not survive, much less expand. We need these passengers flying on mainline birds.

The only way a regional airline union would work is if it managed to get regional pay up so much that it would be no longer cost effective for regionals to exist. Maybe that is what needs to happen, now that I think of it.

 

[Soverytired]

How about:

Most regional airlines aren't airlines at all, but leasing companies. They submit competitive bids to real airlines to provide crews and planes, but that's about it.

 

[vortilon-x]

short stay

...and regionals are for many just a stepping stone. So why bother. And regionals come and go. And all the above reasons.

But why not?

 

[Jmoney]

Rjdc

Joust ask Joe Merchant about this one! This tool will go on and on about what ALPA does wrong, but he is stangely silent about what the RJDC is doing for anyone!

 

[shamrock]

Because 1.95% of a regional salary isn't going to do much. At least the regionals (arguably) have a voice in ALPA, if a regional union was created I have to think we wouldn't stand a chance against a better funded mainline union.

 

[mcjohn]

First off, 110 seats or less? That is nationwide mainline narrowbody feed! That is not "regional" flying! That is "outsourced" flying and nothing else. CRJs flying 3-4 hour flights between major cities and major hubs is not regional by any sense of the word.

Man I thought we did long hauls going from Charlotte out to N.W. Arkansas or up to New England or Canada. I'm curious who is flying the RJs on 4 hour runs.

It's hard to make a living flying the RJs on little 17 minute hops all day which we do plenty of. Sometimes I wish I were in a little 1900 or smaller just for the added time.

 

[samballs]

Man I thought we did long hauls going from Charlotte out to N.W. Arkansas or up to New England or Canada. I'm curious who is flying the RJs on 4 hour runs.

It's hard to make a living flying the RJs on little 17 minute hops all day which we do plenty of. Sometimes I wish I were in a little 1900 or smaller just for the added time.

Comair has a ton we even have a 4:40 JFK - AUS. they suck..

 

[mcjohn]

Yeah? What kind of RJ? Seems kinda slow for that run.

Or better yet, WOW. You might actually make over 20g your first year there!

 

[DX Rick]

Comair has a ton we even have a 4:40 JFK - AUS. they suck..

No to menton the STL-JFK's. 2.5 hours.
CVG-HOU or CVG- MIA...in a 50 seater....all which mainline should be doing.

We shouldn't be doing anything more than 90 minutes.

 

[DoinTime]

Maybe some genius has already thought of this, but why isn't there a Union that represents the regionals?? 110 seats or less, a union that looks out for the little guys??

You could call it RAPA, Regional Airlines Pilots Association. I'm sure someone has already thought of this, so why has it not worked??

just curious??

There used to be a RAPA. I believe they either disolved or merged with ALPA. I know they represented one of the carriers that made up American Eagle.

The big problems with a regional specific Union is that the small amount of dues we pay would not be enough money to even carry out day to day business let alone carry out any kind of political or safety agendas. Dues would have to be increased to about 4% to really be effective. Not to mention if you think ALPA is hostile to regionals now just wait until you remove any kind of connection between the parties.

 

[NuGuy]

There used to be a RAPA. I believe they either disolved or merged with ALPA. I know they represented one of the carriers that made up American Eagle.

RAPA represented Wings West, I believe. When the single carrier petition was awarded in the mid 90's, there were 4 remaining AE carriers, Simmons, Flagship (both represented by APA), WW, represented by RAPA and Executive, which was represented by ALPA.

After the SCP was granted, there was a representational election, where the APA basically said "see ya, bye". From what I saw and heard, APA wasn't too keen on representing Eagle, and in fact, saw it as a big conflict of interest. When the opportunity came to "divest", they took it. Even though APA appeared on the ballot, they did zero campaining.

That left ALPA and RAPA. The guys at WW made a honest effort at "selling" RAPA as the solution for regional pilots, and I think they may have even had a plan for a national union. But ALPA brought in the big guns, and really swayed Simmons and Flagship, who were the "heavy hitters" at the time.

The rest, as they say, is history. The first thing ALPA at Eagle did was vote in a 16 year contract...how'd that work out boys?

Nu

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If it is such a great idea... then why isn't it so? I think the questions is also the answer....

Also... most pilots are in transit... they are there to get thier time and move on to a real union.... so the ability and pragmatictality for a stand alone union is weak...

The dues at a regional would have to be higher than 2%. Most ALPA pilots want to lover their dues....since they are only in it for themsleves and really don't care about the professional services that ALPA provides... these professional services don't have real tangible "mony in my pocket" value...

Finally the original posters posits the question in terms of "what is in it for me....." Unfortunately, most ALPA pilots think this way too.... Very little profession 'first' pilots out there...

 

[DoinTime]

The first thing ALPA at Eagle did was vote in a 16 year contract...how'd that work out boys?

Nu

Considering that Eagle has some of the best rates in the industry they seem to be doing pretty well. ASA just finished 9 years of a contract and PCL is at 8.5 years and counting. Long contracts aren't always bad if they are configured right.

 

[PCL_128]

Considering that Eagle has some of the best rates in the industry they seem to be doing pretty well. ASA just finished 9 years of a contract and PCL is at 8.5 years and counting. Long contracts aren't always bad if they are configured right.

Not to mention that that 16-year contract locked up virtually all of AMR's feed, relieving the EGL pilots of the RFP problems that all of the other regionals have to worry about. I'd say that that contract turned out to be a blessing in disguise.

 

[LearLove]

There used to be a RAPA. I believe they either disolved or merged with ALPA. I know they represented one of the carriers that made up American Eagle.

The big problems with a regional specific Union is that the small amount of dues we pay would not be enough money to even carry out day to day business let alone carry out any kind of political or safety agendas. Dues would have to be increased to about 4% to really be effective. Not to mention if you think ALPA is hostile to regionals now just wait until you remove any kind of connection between the parties.

Whats kind of scary is that it took 11 posts to point out/answer this guys question about a commuter union and some that posted above have some crediable/years exp. in this bizz. Sorta pathetic - part of being a professional in this or any other bizz is having a grasp in its history.

 

[DrewBlows]

Yeah? What kind of RJ? Seems kinda slow for that run.

Or better yet, WOW. You might actually make over 20g your first year there!

My personal longest flights by mileage...

BDL-RSW 1060 NM
JFK-MSY 1062 NM
AUS-JFK 1300+ NM

I guess it's called a "Regional" airline because we fly over so many regions.

 

[SkyNation]

YYZ-SLC 1657

4:37 block

killer

 

[regionaltard]

There was one good shot at addressing this issue to the betterment of all pilots but it was fumbled away.

I think that the IBT could have picked up the pieces and done a whole lot more to fill the vacuum than it has. Unfortunately, making an investment in building an infrastructure on the "if you build it, they will come" premise is well beyond the grasp of that organization's cognitive ability. They've just spent too much time in an industry where a guy can get canned and just walk down the street and pretty much get the same job back the next day.

 

[NuGuy]

There was one good shot at addressing this issue to the betterment of all pilots but it was fumbled away.

I think that the IBT could have picked up the pieces and done a whole lot more to fill the vacuum than it has. Unfortunately, making an investment in building an infrastructure on the "if you build it, they will come" premise is well beyond the grasp of that organization's cognitive ability. They've just spent too much time in an industry where a guy can get canned and just walk down the street and pretty much get the same job back the next day.

Heyas RT,

You are certainly correct. The IBT has the big guns, big connections and big money to make it happen.

Imagine the power you could bring to bear on an airline when you say "not going to bagain? No problemo, but looks like all your parts, food and other deliveries are going to be a little late". Imagine replacement engines or parts getting "lost" in transit.

But as always, the pilots are their own worst enemy by considering themselves "white collar" and above the garden variety "truckers". While truckers know the value of supporting each other, how many pilots (other than mabye UPS guys) do you know that would consider going out on strike to support the truck drivers?

But, by the same token, pilots are very hands on, and they don't like having shots called by non-pilots from some head office somewhere. The IBT is too gigantic and rigid of an organization to provide any flexibility like this. That, and the failure to adapt to the RLA (versis the NLRA), resulted in the IBT representation of pilots and flight attendants having had mixed results at best.

It is this failure of "the meeting of the minds" that has led to no viable alternative to ALPA. Besides, both are AFL-CIO unions, and they have a no-poaching rule. The FA's at NWA had to wait it out two years with an independent union after they ditched the IBT before they could vote the AFA in.

Nu

 

[regionaltard]

Heyas RT,

You are certainly correct. The IBT has the big guns, big connections and big money to make it happen.

There is no way on Spaghetti's green earth that the IBT could pull this off with in-house "talent." I'd cite the fact that they haven't even tried yet as proof positive.

 

[JohnnyP]

.....

Man I thought we did long hauls going from Charlotte out to N.W. Arkansas or up to New England or Canada. I'm curious who is flying the RJs on 4 hour runs.

I seem to remember expressjet doing Toronto to Houston?..Isnt that over 4 hrs??? Yikes!!!...Pass the gin & tonic for that ride!!! Better yet just get the tow bar and smash my skull in!....

 

[flythere]

Heyas RT,

You are certainly correct. The IBT has the big guns, big connections and big money to make it happen.

Imagine the power you could bring to bear on an airline when you say "not going to bagain? No problemo, but looks like all your parts, food and other deliveries are going to be a little late". Imagine replacement engines or parts getting "lost" in transit.

But as always, the pilots are their own worst enemy by considering themselves "white collar" and above the garden variety "truckers". While truckers know the value of supporting each other, how many pilots (other than mabye UPS guys) do you know that would consider going out on strike to support the truck drivers?

But, by the same token, pilots are very hands on, and they don't like having shots called by non-pilots from some head office somewhere. The IBT is too gigantic and rigid of an organization to provide any flexibility like this. That, and the failure to adapt to the RLA (versis the NLRA), resulted in the IBT representation of pilots and flight attendants having had mixed results at best.

It is this failure of "the meeting of the minds" that has led to no viable alternative to ALPA. Besides, both are AFL-CIO unions, and they have a no-poaching rule. The FA's at NWA had to wait it out two years with an independent union after they ditched the IBT before they could vote the AFA in.

Nu

You seem to have the right idea! Too bad the IBT couldn't have pulled it off! Your description of us pilots seems to right on the money, even though I hate to admit it!!!

Thanks for the input!!!

 

[hoover]

Secondly, it is in EVERYONE's best interest for the regionals to not survive, much less expand. We need these passengers flying on mainline birds.

Nope, just the pilots'.

 

[hoover]

No to menton the STL-JFK's. 2.5 hours.
CVG-HOU or CVG- MIA...in a 50 seater....all which mainline should be doing.

We shouldn't be doing anything more than 90 minutes.

Why? Because you said so? Because that's the way it was done in the past, so we should always do it that way? The airlines wouldn't be doing it this way if there wasn't money to be made.

 

[Rally]

I have a valid question.

Delta flies a MD-8* or something from central florida to Cinnci. So does Comair. Do the pax same price for the ticket? Or is it cheaper because they are flying on a regional?

I am looking for real answers not jokes or spam.
Take care

 

[PCL_128]

Besides, both are AFL-CIO unions, and they have a no-poaching rule.

The IBT is no longer affiliated with the AFL-CIO. Haven't been in a couple of years. They left and stiffed the Federation for millions of dollars of dues that they still haven't paid back.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I have a valid question.

Delta flies a MD-8* or something from central florida to Cinnci. So does Comair. Do the pax same price for the ticket? Or is it cheaper because they are flying on a regional?

I am looking for real answers not jokes or spam.
Take care

The short answer: Yes.

The long answer: Depends.

Airline seats are sold in "buckets", which are a certain number of seats sold a certain time before the flight for a certain price. Depending on the city-pair (business or recreation orientation) the buckets vary...in size, price, and timing.

If the mainline a/c is being used as the "primary" bucket provider for the city-pair, the RJ, with it's fewer/smaller buckets is an add-on to either augment lift, or to provide a sync'd feed for a bank of flying in/out of the hub.

If the RJ is the optimized lift provider, the mainline jet is used to provide larger buckets at certain times-of-day.

The wonks in the Marketing Department live and die by their ability to calculate optimized buckets for each city-pair.

If there is a lot of competition on the city-pair, some buckets are used as "tags" to lure pax bound for destinations beyond the hub.

In most cases, the ticket price is the same...but the pricing model stopped being predictable in 1978.

 

[Occam's Razor]

A Regional Pilots association?

It'd be fun to watch!

If you think the demographics and priorities of mainline pilots are problematic...you'd see a real conflict between the "moving's" and "staying's" at the regional level.

 

[Captain Morgan]

I seem to remember expressjet doing Toronto to Houston?..Isnt that over 4 hrs??? Yikes!!!...Pass the gin & tonic for that ride!!! Better yet just get the tow bar and smash my skull in!....

Yup, I used to do it all the time in an XR. My pairing on day four would be YYZ-IAH, IAH-YYZ, YYZ-CLE. On those two legs to/from YYZ, we found "studying" was the best method to combat boredom. One time we were going from YYZ-IAH and had to divert to Tyler, TX for fuel after our routing got fooled with due to weather. Definetely not a regional airline route.

CM