When can AirTran dump ALPA?

[RLAblows]

"You guys?" I had no involvement. But your revisionist history is amusing.

Yeah right, you had no involvement. Would you hurry up and leave.

 

[Dan Roman]

An ALPA rep saying there will be no court battle is like a bum not asking for money.

And you don't think SWAPA wouldn't go to court if DAL or UAL bought them and treated the SWA pilots the way you treated the AirTran pilots?

 

[HowardBorden]

ALPA doesn't pit one airline against another

Come on, are you serious. In its almighty quest for dues revenue ALPA represents dozens of groups whose end goals are diametrically opposed to each other. If you truly believe that mainline plots are not trying to recapture all outsourced flying from regional affiliates then you are delusional! And if you truly believe all regional pilots are happy to give away all their flying to mainline, then I seriously need some of what you're smoking.

For your information, that is the exact definition of pitting one pilot group against another. Try again.

 

[Jim]

If you truly believe that mainline plots are not trying to recapture all outsourced flying from regional affiliates then you are delusional!

ALPA National doesn't control any flying. And of course individual airline ALPA groups are trying to recapture their flying. Can you blame a mainline pilot group for trying to get back what was originally theirs?

You are missing the point. ALPA National provides resources, it doesn't control any pilot group. The individual airline ALPA group negotiates for its pilots and that pilot group's participation in their ALPA group directly influences success and failure. If your pilot group isn't doing well, it's not because of ALPA national, it's because of your own group.

But it's easy to blame others for your failures....

 

[madjack]

With the 717 departing there is talk of a Law suit...1100 AT pilots showing up sans airplanes would have changed the SLI, or so it is reasoned, I don't personally agree...

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

With the 717 departing there is talk of a Law suit...1100 AT pilots showing up sans airplanes would have changed the SLI, or so it is reasoned, I don't personally agree...

Are you saying WN pilots on their own, or SWAPA on behalf of the pilots, would file suit against Southwest Airlines? Would that fall under the SLI or any of the agreed to processes?

 

[27 driver]

We are not actually showing up without airplanes. We had a bunch of orders...some of which have been exercised and more to come Plus the 73's that have transitioned. Our 717's are supposed to be replaced on nearly a 1 to 1 basis. That is what has been rumored anyway. Now lawsuits from SWAPA. Funny. What is the basis of the lawsuit. How is there harm. The only thing SWA owes you is monthly guarantee. As long as you get that you will be hard pressed to show harm. Besides all you guys told us many times that you knew the 71's were leaving. Armed with that knowledge you voted on an SLI. One that SWAPA made sure couldn't be changed in arbitration. Now you want it changed. Looks like there is not much LUV at LUV anymore.

 

[Dan Roman]

Come on, are you serious. In its almighty quest for dues revenue ALPA represents dozens of groups whose end goals are diametrically opposed to each other. If you truly believe that mainline plots are not trying to recapture all outsourced flying from regional affiliates then you are delusional! And if you truly believe all regional pilots are happy to give away all their flying to mainline, then I seriously need some of what you're smoking.

For your information, that is the exact definition of pitting one pilot group against another. Try again.

What Jim said, also, any flying the regionals has been given by the mainline isn't "theirs". Whatever flying mainline gives them is certainly fair to be taken back as the market warrants. You can't fault ALPA in any way for that.

 

[CFIT]

ALPA National doesn't control any flying. And of course individual airline ALPA groups are trying to recapture their flying. Can you blame a mainline pilot group for trying to get back what was originally theirs?

You are missing the point. ALPA National provides resources, it doesn't control any pilot group. The individual airline ALPA group negotiates for its pilots and that pilot group's participation in their ALPA group directly influences success and failure. If your pilot group isn't doing well, it's not because of ALPA national, it's because of your own group.

But it's easy to blame others for your failures....

Lee Moak's signature is on the last two regional concessionary contracts.

These contracts hurt every pilot.

Pure and simple, alpa is a money machine.

 

[madjack]

Like I said, I don't agree, makes about as much sense as AAI/ALPA using the DRA venue...their (AAI/ALPA's) complaint should have been filed in court directly against SWA, but I suppose that would cost more money/time, and with AAI/ALPA becoming history those are commodites that that side doesn't have. The DRA/DRC is meant to be used to to resolve issues of improperly executing the agreed upon seniority list integration, I.E. a pilot at airline A (A for acquired ha, ha) is assigned a number on the ISL and when he transitions he is lower on the list than what was negotiated. The DRA/DRC was never meant to be used as a venue to gain monetary compensation because of "harm" inflicted by the acquiring company as a result of a sub lease of an airframe...this is completely unprecedented and as a result, who can predict what an arbitrator will do?...but it was the route that AAI/ALPA argued and won approval to use. I personally feel SWA should have considered the impact on both sides of the 717's demise and consulted the unions but they did not have to and they did not...and if you thought about just a little you would realize their is real harm being caused to BOTH sides by the 717 going away...

One more note...if an award is given, and SWA refuses to pay, it will be SWAPA that grieves, it will be SWAPA pilots who will sit at the SBOA with the company...crazy that the very entity that is arguing its case against AAI/ALPA in front of an arbitrator (final arguments on monday, award 10 days after) will have to "negotiate/fight/argue" call it what you will, with SWA, over any award to AAI/ALPA pilots.

When it is all said and done, I fear AAI/ALPA's DRC will be a distraction to the real prize for both pilot groups, section 6, of the next CBA with SWA...

 

[Ty Webb]

One of the basic realities of working under the Railway Labor Act is that almost every dispute between Labor and Management MUST be settled under the provisions of the RLA.

Specifically, they must be settled using the processes contained in our Contracts, Side Letters and Agreements. There are a few exceptions, like sexual discrimination, hostile workplace, and a few others. The rest of our issues MUST be pursued under the RLA, and in our case, that means the Dispute Resolution process we agreed to in the Process Agreement.

Otherwise, the first thing that happens when you take a complaint to a venue outside of the RLA is the Company makes a motion to dismiss, stating that the RLA requires these disputes to be filed under the provisions of the RLA, and, unless the claim falls under one of the things that are specifically exempt from the RLA, the Judge will dismiss your claim, wasting a whole lot of time and money.

 

[Britpilot]

It was a majority. A strong majority. The cowards just changed their minds after the fact when Gary started making more public his veiled threats. Hell, even some of the plaintiffs in the DFR lawsuit sent emails telling the MEC to vote down the first deal.

Ha,ha,ha. In your dreams. Not even close to a majority, who are you trying to kid?
And those "cowards" Those are the pilots you are paid to represent. Real nice but exactly what I expect from you.

 

[Britpilot]

Yeah right, you had no involvement. Would you hurry up and leave.

I know, it would be funny if we weren't paying for the privilege of this garbage.

 

[redflyer65]

Ha,ha,ha. In your dreams. Not even close to a majority, who are you trying to kid?
And those "cowards" Those are the pilots you are paid to represent. Real nice but exactly what I expect from you.

You know it could never be his fault, or ALPA's fault right? No matter how bad ALPA represented you, he'd never admit it. So he has the fall back position that it's YOUR fault. Very nice.

 

[Britpilot]

You know it could never be his fault, or ALPA's fault right? No matter how bad ALPA represented you, he'd never admit it. So he has the fall back position that it's YOUR fault. Very nice.

Yeah I know. Worth every penny of my dues.

 

[canyonblue]

You know it could never be his fault, or ALPA's fault right? No matter how bad ALPA represented you, he'd never admit it. So he has the fall back position that it's YOUR fault. Very nice.

Sounds like a managements wet dream. What a maroon.

 

[dicko]

I think you read waaaaay too much into things, Dicko. I was merely commenting on airplane colors. Where did you get that I was expressing an opinion on who should represent you? Personally, I try to stay out of it. But since you just asked my opinion, I agree that ALPA should represent you while you're still on the AirTran side of the partition. Two reasons: 1) since it was them who negotiated your contract in the first place; and 2) since ALPA has filed a DRC complaint under the agreement set, which seemingly puts SWAPA in an adversarial position with respect to the interests of APLA (AirTran) members.

See, I'm agreeing with you. I'm an agreeable guy. Just ask anyone. Now I want you to agree that the planes aren't really "purple," as some nameless ALPA members have alleged.

Bubba

I agree. I'm ashamed to admit I kinda like the paint job.

 

[737tanker]

Our 717's are supposed to be replaced on nearly a 1 to 1 basis.

The aircraft that are being used to replace the 717s are all aircraft that could have been used to grow SWA, not to provide seats for 1100 pilots who are no longer bringing seats to acquisition.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

The aircraft that are being used to replace the 717s are all aircraft that could have been used to grow SWA, not to provide seats for 1100 pilots who are no longer bringing seats to acquisition.

"It wasn't do we grow Southwest, or do we buy AirTran? It was, we need AirTran, so we can grow in the future," Mr. Kelly said.

 

[redflyer65]

"It wasn't do we grow Southwest, or do we buy AirTran? It was, we need AirTran, so we can grow in the future," Mr. Kelly said.

So I'm sure in your world, Southwest would have withered up and died without AirTran. Gary 'needed' AirTran at the price he got them. Do you think if the deal cost double or triple he would have made that statement? Absolutely not.

To be honest, I think this acquisition will work out well once all the parts are moving efficiently and we can start firing on all cylinders.

 

[madjack]

AAI was a worthy adversary in BWI and had built a business in DL's fortress, and just because I would rather work at SWA doesn't mean I believe the AAI acq was bad for the company...

 

[Ty Webb]

The aircraft that are being used to replace the 717s are all aircraft that could have been used to grow SWA, not to provide seats for 1100 pilots who are no longer bringing seats to acquisition.

Seems like GK might have been saying that there weren't many market opportunities left to grow, what with AirTran competing in 70 cities . . . However, if they bought AirTran, then there would be more opportunities for growth, with less competition.

I don't know why some guys still want to argue about this stuff, anyway. . . A few Pilots on both lists saw improvements, the vast majority of us did not.

I understand that you feel cheated out of the possibility of future growth. We lost more than a possibility of growth; in my case, I lost 3.5 years, a Captain seat I had held for ten years, and my on-line commute. I feel your pain, and more.

To MJ, Red, ScoreBoard2, Bubba, and many others who seem to understand where we are coming from- Thanks, guys, it is appreciated. The less I feel like I have to "defend" our situation, the easier it is for me to appreciate what the RSW pilots have been going through lately, too. It definitely gives me hope that this will all behind us eventually, and we will all be working for a better, stronger company.

Regards,
Ty

 

[glasspilot1]

I love hearing the ALPA success stories from the rEAL, Midwest, Emery, PAN-AM pilots about how well they were sodomized, I mean represented by that illustrious institution.

Ok, a tiny aside: Kharma, when you composed this sentence TWA didn't creep into your mind at all? Just a little? I know! I'm biased!

Ok, back to the thread......

 

[scoreboardII]

Seems like GK might have been saying that there weren't many market opportunities left to grow, what with AirTran competing in 70 cities . . . However, if they bought AirTran, then there would be more opportunities for growth, with less competition.

I don't know why some guys still want to argue about this stuff, anyway. . . A few Pilots on both lists saw improvements, the vast majority of us did not.

I understand that you feel cheated out of the possibility of future growth. We lost more than a possibility of growth; in my case, I lost 3.5 years, a Captain seat I had held for ten years, and my on-line commute. I feel your pain, and more.

To MJ, Red, ScoreBoard2, Bubba, and many others who seem to understand where we are coming from- Thanks, guys, it is appreciated. The less I feel like I have to "defend" our situation, the easier it is for me to appreciate what the RSW pilots have been going through lately, too. It definitely gives me hope that this will all behind us eventually, and we will all be working for a better, stronger company.

Regards,
Ty

Thanks Ty, back at you and all the AT soon to be SWA bro's.

Remember, not one pilot decided to do this, feel like throwing blame or flame, his name is Gary Kelly.

 

[scoreboardII]

The aircraft that are being used to replace the 717s are all aircraft that could have been used to grow SWA, not to provide seats for 1100 pilots who are no longer bringing seats to acquisition.

Could have, a very big if, and only if GK decided to dive head first into ATL with a direct fight with DAL and AT, which he obviously had no stomach for. Got to respect a man who knows his limitations.

 

[vixin]

"It wasn't do we grow Southwest, or do we buy AirTran? It was, we need AirTran, so we can grow in the future," Mr. Kelly said

Do I really need to repost again the severe difficulties your EX CEO was stating about AAI. Get a clue about AAI. Some of you trannies really are selfish all about me want everything morons.

 

[Dan Roman]

Do I really need to repost again the severe difficulties your EX CEO was stating about AAI. Get a clue about AAI. Some of you trannies really are selfish all about me want everything morons.

He is simply posting a quote from "Gary".....Why the attack? He is correct and you seem to be biased towards what you want to believe rather than the truth. The simple truth is SWA couldn't have had a hub in ATL without buying AT. Hello....that's growth. The domestic market has matured and there is no longer room to grow like SWA did in the past, hence the need to acquire competition. Viewing from the sidelines I would say SOME of you SWA folks come across as the all about me folks in this merger more than the AirTran folks.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Do I really need to repost again the severe difficulties your EX CEO was stating about AAI. Get a clue about AAI. Some of you trannies really are selfish all about me want everything morons.

Get a clue vixin. The quote was in response to a selfish all about me want everything moron wn pilot who was complaining about no growth and blaming it on the trannies.

 

[redflyer65]

Get a clue vixin. The quote was in response to a selfish all about me want everything moron wn pilot who was complaining about no growth and blaming it on the trannies.

You talking about me LUV2B mad? I never blamed the trannies for no growth. That was Gary's decision. Had nothing to do with a single WN pilot. Sorry.

You're free to continue your angry rant though. I'll continue to call BS when I see it.

 

[27 driver]

The aircraft that are being used to replace the 717s are all aircraft that could have been used to grow SWA, not to provide seats for 1100 pilots who are no longer bringing seats to acquisition.

That wasn't our choice. It was SWA's. We were along for the ride. We were told they were staying.