When can AirTran dump ALPA?

[DUBLINFLYER]

You guys at AT are so lucky that GK gave you a second chance, after your wonderful ALPA said no to the first offer! I wonder if he still has the option of saying again we own you and take or leave it or move on,
MOVE ON AND STOP THE BS or keep paying ALPA'S dues and dinner expenses and drag it out and feel the wrath of GK and HK(he is still there)

,

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

You guys at AT are so lucky that GK gave you a second chance, after your wonderful ALPA said no to the first offer! I wonder if he still has the option of saying again we own you and take or leave it or move on,
MOVE ON AND STOP THE BS or keep paying ALPA'S dues and dinner expenses and drag it out and feel the wrath of GK and HK(he is still there)

,

Our "wonderful ALPA" was the majority of our pilots that contacted our MEC after the details of the first deal emerged.

He has the option to say that, and if he chooses to go that route, we'll go back to arbitration to force compliance. Very few are scared anymore of empty threats.

 

[PCL_128]

I call Bull******************** on this.

You can call whatever you want. It's a fact. There will be no court battle.

 

[Britpilot]

Our "wonderful ALPA" was the majority of our pilots that contacted our MEC after the details of the first deal emerged.

Majority? No. About 400? Yes.

 

[humveedriver]

You guys at AT are so lucky that GK gave you a second chance, after your wonderful ALPA said no to the first offer! I wonder if he still has the option of saying again we own you and take or leave it or move on,
MOVE ON AND STOP THE BS or keep paying ALPA'S dues and dinner expenses and drag it out and feel the wrath of GK and HK(he is still there)

,

Maybe there is a lesson there. The perception is ALPA had a controlling influence on AT pilots. Not true. When we (scumbag line pilots) pressed the ALPA lawyer in an open meeting, he was very non committal to what we should expect if we voted no. No fire and brimstone. I don't remember him speaking poorly of SWA.
The vocal minority said vote it down, while apparently the silent majority hoped it would pass without losing face.

717's go away and our pilots all go their reps and ask how this can be? A dispute is filed on behalf of all pilots. By our elected officials.

Now, being on the other side I read SWAPA membership asking why "ALPA" has filed a dispute but SWAPA officials haven't? Its a rhetorical question because everyone knows the answer is SWAPA doesn't like to make waves. You sound like you just want to move on ,fair enough. But many of your brothers and sisters are not happy with SWAPA's relationship with the company after the AT purchase (I'm sure it started before then).

 

[Dan Roman]

Maybe there is a lesson there. The perception is ALPA had a controlling influence on AT pilots. Not true. When we (scumbag line pilots) pressed the ALPA lawyer in an open meeting, he was very non committal to what we should expect if we voted no. No fire and brimstone. I don't remember him speaking poorly of SWA.
The vocal minority said vote it down, while apparently the silent majority hoped it would pass without losing face.

717's go away and our pilots all go their reps and ask how this can be? A dispute is filed on behalf of all pilots. By our elected officials.

Now, being on the other side I read SWAPA membership asking why "ALPA" has filed a dispute but SWAPA officials haven't? Its a rhetorical question because everyone knows the answer is SWAPA doesn't like to make waves. You sound like you just want to move on ,fair enough. But many of your brothers and sisters are not happy with SWAPA's relationship with the company after the AT purchase (I'm sure it started before then).

Very important point was made here that cuts across the whole "I hate ALPA because my career didn't turn out the way I thought it would" deal. A union, any union, accomplishes whatever it's membership does, regardless of the capital letters on it's stationary.
ALPA provides the most resources obviously (regardless of the size of the airline) but it's up to the membership what they do with it.
ALPA doesn't force anything on a pilot group they don't want.
ALPA doesn't pit one airline against another, they provide the same resources to all equally, and finally ALPA can't save anyone or any airline from negligent management or bad economic times.
You anti ALPA union folks apparently don't realize that whatever happened to you to make you unhappy with ALPA wouldn't have been prevented by an independent union. None of them are perfect, but they all provide a necessary service.

 

[PCL_128]

Majority? No. About 400? Yes.

It was a majority. A strong majority. The cowards just changed their minds after the fact when Gary started making more public his veiled threats. Hell, even some of the plaintiffs in the DFR lawsuit sent emails telling the MEC to vote down the first deal.

 

[RLAblows]

It was a majority. A strong majority. The cowards just changed their minds after the fact when Gary started making more public his veiled threats. Hell, even some of the plaintiffs in the DFR lawsuit sent emails telling the MEC to vote down the first deal.

I don't believe that for one second. The ones that you refer to as cowards only changed their stance because they learned the truth of what was going on. You guys were only telling half the story. You were selectively sending information out to the pilots. You never educated pilots on the risk of a no vote. Anyway, it wasn't what the majority wanted. Those clowns were expeditiously recalled and that should have proven what the "real" majority wanted.

 

[PCL_128]

I don't believe that for one second. The ones that you refer to as cowards only changed their stance because they learned the truth of what was going on. You guys were only telling half the story. You were selectively sending information out to the pilots. You never educated pilots on the risk of a no vote. Anyway, it wasn't what the majority wanted. Those clowns were expeditiously recalled and that should have proven what the "real" majority wanted.

"You guys?" I had no involvement. But your revisionist history is amusing.

 

[scoreboardII]

You can call whatever you want. It's a fact. There will be no court battle.

An ALPA rep saying there will be no court battle is like a bum not asking for money.

 

[RLAblows]

"You guys?" I had no involvement. But your revisionist history is amusing.

Yeah right, you had no involvement. Would you hurry up and leave.

 

[Dan Roman]

An ALPA rep saying there will be no court battle is like a bum not asking for money.

And you don't think SWAPA wouldn't go to court if DAL or UAL bought them and treated the SWA pilots the way you treated the AirTran pilots?

 

[HowardBorden]

ALPA doesn't pit one airline against another

Come on, are you serious. In its almighty quest for dues revenue ALPA represents dozens of groups whose end goals are diametrically opposed to each other. If you truly believe that mainline plots are not trying to recapture all outsourced flying from regional affiliates then you are delusional! And if you truly believe all regional pilots are happy to give away all their flying to mainline, then I seriously need some of what you're smoking.

For your information, that is the exact definition of pitting one pilot group against another. Try again.

 

[Jim]

If you truly believe that mainline plots are not trying to recapture all outsourced flying from regional affiliates then you are delusional!

ALPA National doesn't control any flying. And of course individual airline ALPA groups are trying to recapture their flying. Can you blame a mainline pilot group for trying to get back what was originally theirs?

You are missing the point. ALPA National provides resources, it doesn't control any pilot group. The individual airline ALPA group negotiates for its pilots and that pilot group's participation in their ALPA group directly influences success and failure. If your pilot group isn't doing well, it's not because of ALPA national, it's because of your own group.

But it's easy to blame others for your failures....

 

[madjack]

With the 717 departing there is talk of a Law suit...1100 AT pilots showing up sans airplanes would have changed the SLI, or so it is reasoned, I don't personally agree...

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

With the 717 departing there is talk of a Law suit...1100 AT pilots showing up sans airplanes would have changed the SLI, or so it is reasoned, I don't personally agree...

Are you saying WN pilots on their own, or SWAPA on behalf of the pilots, would file suit against Southwest Airlines? Would that fall under the SLI or any of the agreed to processes?

 

[27 driver]

We are not actually showing up without airplanes. We had a bunch of orders...some of which have been exercised and more to come Plus the 73's that have transitioned. Our 717's are supposed to be replaced on nearly a 1 to 1 basis. That is what has been rumored anyway. Now lawsuits from SWAPA. Funny. What is the basis of the lawsuit. How is there harm. The only thing SWA owes you is monthly guarantee. As long as you get that you will be hard pressed to show harm. Besides all you guys told us many times that you knew the 71's were leaving. Armed with that knowledge you voted on an SLI. One that SWAPA made sure couldn't be changed in arbitration. Now you want it changed. Looks like there is not much LUV at LUV anymore.

 

[Dan Roman]

Come on, are you serious. In its almighty quest for dues revenue ALPA represents dozens of groups whose end goals are diametrically opposed to each other. If you truly believe that mainline plots are not trying to recapture all outsourced flying from regional affiliates then you are delusional! And if you truly believe all regional pilots are happy to give away all their flying to mainline, then I seriously need some of what you're smoking.

For your information, that is the exact definition of pitting one pilot group against another. Try again.

What Jim said, also, any flying the regionals has been given by the mainline isn't "theirs". Whatever flying mainline gives them is certainly fair to be taken back as the market warrants. You can't fault ALPA in any way for that.

 

[CFIT]

ALPA National doesn't control any flying. And of course individual airline ALPA groups are trying to recapture their flying. Can you blame a mainline pilot group for trying to get back what was originally theirs?

You are missing the point. ALPA National provides resources, it doesn't control any pilot group. The individual airline ALPA group negotiates for its pilots and that pilot group's participation in their ALPA group directly influences success and failure. If your pilot group isn't doing well, it's not because of ALPA national, it's because of your own group.

But it's easy to blame others for your failures....

Lee Moak's signature is on the last two regional concessionary contracts.

These contracts hurt every pilot.

Pure and simple, alpa is a money machine.

 

[madjack]

Like I said, I don't agree, makes about as much sense as AAI/ALPA using the DRA venue...their (AAI/ALPA's) complaint should have been filed in court directly against SWA, but I suppose that would cost more money/time, and with AAI/ALPA becoming history those are commodites that that side doesn't have. The DRA/DRC is meant to be used to to resolve issues of improperly executing the agreed upon seniority list integration, I.E. a pilot at airline A (A for acquired ha, ha) is assigned a number on the ISL and when he transitions he is lower on the list than what was negotiated. The DRA/DRC was never meant to be used as a venue to gain monetary compensation because of "harm" inflicted by the acquiring company as a result of a sub lease of an airframe...this is completely unprecedented and as a result, who can predict what an arbitrator will do?...but it was the route that AAI/ALPA argued and won approval to use. I personally feel SWA should have considered the impact on both sides of the 717's demise and consulted the unions but they did not have to and they did not...and if you thought about just a little you would realize their is real harm being caused to BOTH sides by the 717 going away...

One more note...if an award is given, and SWA refuses to pay, it will be SWAPA that grieves, it will be SWAPA pilots who will sit at the SBOA with the company...crazy that the very entity that is arguing its case against AAI/ALPA in front of an arbitrator (final arguments on monday, award 10 days after) will have to "negotiate/fight/argue" call it what you will, with SWA, over any award to AAI/ALPA pilots.

When it is all said and done, I fear AAI/ALPA's DRC will be a distraction to the real prize for both pilot groups, section 6, of the next CBA with SWA...