What's the problem with GJ?!?!

[jetfo]

Hey Richard aka Lear70:

You're opinion is in the minority.

Most of the rest of us fully believe that a pilot who goes to work for G0 Jets FULLY KNOWING what they have done and why the company exists DESERVES EVERYTHING THEY GET AND MORE.

Most of the rest of us fully believe that if a pilot who DOES NOT know any better goes to work there and is educated by one of the TSA brethren or some other person IN A CALM, INTELLIGENT, BUT DIRECT MANNER with FACTS to back them up but that pilot STILL continues to work there, that pilot DESERVES EVERYTHING THEY GET AND MORE.

I personally believe the TSA pilots should hang around the hotel where the G0 Jets pilots are in training and look them up their 2nd or 3rd night while studying and clue them in on the facts. At least then the TSA pilots can say they made an honest effort to educate those pilots and none of those pilots can claim "they didn't know".

What they are doing is just ONE SMALL LEVEL above being a Scab. You're intelligent enough to understand that, by accepting employment at a company that is being used to whipsaw another group into a concessionary contract, a G0 Jets pilot is DIRECTLY affecting the livelihood of another pilot.

That is morally and ethically WRONG.

I know many people these days don't care about "right and wrong", especially if doing the "right" thing would delay their career goals, but that's NOT AN EXCUSE to keep doing it.

As a result, there are repercussions. I do my small part.

G0 Jets pilots: if you are ever jumpseating on a NWA CRJ flown by Pinnacle, make sure you ask the gate agent who the crew is. If you see "Richard Murphy" on the release as the Captain, you might as well go find a different way to where you're going, as the animosity caused by you being on the aircraft constitutes a safety of flight issue.

I keep a copy of the Freedom and G0 Jets lists in my PDA in the same list as the Eastern guys (what few are left). I'm not the only one...

Don't you have anything better to do than weigh down your flight bag with lists of pilots, most of them retired or dead to carry out this rediculous vendetta that doesn't even concern you.

I know you have the list on your PDA, good for you.

If I were you I'd be more concerned with how your friends at NWA, i.e Steenland, is srewing you with the upcoming furloughs. Or perhaps staying off of Terry Meffords radar screen.

Working in this industry is difficult enough without you and your compatriots at TSA adding to the misery.

Go ahead deny some poor smuck your jumpseat that just needs a job to feed his family and is trying to get home to spend the little time he has off with them.

If that really makes you feel good.

The guys that went to work there are not scabs! There is no strike! They did not cross any picket line! And most importantly, they did not take anyone's job!

Unlike the scab mechanics at NWA! Do you let those scabs non-rev on your flights ?!?!?!?! I bet they're on your plane more often then you know.

You should focus your energy and anger on the folks that are bringing this malaise to this industry. Incompetent and or clever airline management that plays pilots off against each other, with their helpful accomplices at ALPA national.

And, after that, maybe think about the approximately 4000+ pilots that are in the process of being furloughed. Nearly half of them RJ drivers. Perhaps, they should just collect unemployment and go on welfare instead of accepting one of the few legitimate jobs out there like *************************s.

By the way, I have no dog in this fight and neither do you!

************************* pilots, like any other 121 pilot is welcome in my jumpseat anytime! Scabs are not, but I have better things to do then keep antiquated lists to carry out a bitter vendetta relating to fights fought and lost a long time ago.

I know how difficult this industry has become and I am happy to help anyone I can with the little I have to give. Life is short enough.

On a sidenote, the day may come when you will need a ride and a *************************s flight is the only way to work or home. You had better hope that they don't treat you as you would treat them.

 

[dispatchguy]

Looking into the UA APOLLO system for GJ flight closeouts, I see that pilots from DL, AA, UA, WN, CO, OH, YV, and XJ/9E have already been accomodated in GJ jumpseats (granted, riding in the back - but its whatever gets you to/from work first)

 

[SkyBoy1981]

I'm just trying to point out with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight that YOU are part of the problem. This juvenile bickering and playground antics only serves to eat the pilot community and plays right in to the "divide and conquer" strategy of management.

Has the practice of refusing jumpseats because of labor issues not been going on before regional jets, regional pilots, or even having an airline pilot under the age of 30 even existed? This isn't exactly a new thing, chief. Its been going on for many years.

 

[flyer172r]

Well, I guess now you know how the guys/gals at CHQ felt while they were negotiating their last contract with the threats of an alter-ego whipsawing them. You don't think your the first airline to suffer through this do you ??? You don't truely understand until you've "walked a mile in their shoes" do you ? You'd assume go on calling them "bottom-feeders"... Sucks doesn't it ???

I dare you to go through all my posts and find one instance where I called CHQ "bottom feeders." I have a lot of friends there and have never given them crap for what happened with their last contract. I know full well TSA's not the first one to go through this, and I doubt we'll be the last. It does suck, and I was simply making an observation that we'll probably end up no better than they did, and everyone else who wasn't involved will lump us into the "bottom feeder" category.

 

[Lear70]

yeah 'cause 9E has always been the most reputable place to work. You guys got all your CRJ's because of your stellar operations.

Oh no doubt... our management can't staff and operate an airline to save their life. Doesn't change what G0 Jets pilots are doing.

I hear you talking, but one question...... Was not Express ticket bought and 9E started to whipsaw XJ. Not to mention what 9E has done to NWA and its wages? You and I are part of the same problem. We all are at the regional level.

Yes it was. One major difference - 9E wasn't purchased to operate as a Mesaba alter-ego and take aircraft deliveries and flights that Mesaba already had been awarded, and Mesaba wasn't shrunk as 9E grew. That's the major difference. NWA's wages won't hinge on us at all - the BR judge in the 1113(c) filing won't be comparing them to us, they'll be comparing them to other legacy carriers.

I agree though, our salaries and people who accept them ARE part of the problem, just in a different way than you mean - G0 Jets is part of the same problem in the same vein; they are willing to undercut another pilot group for a job.

If you guys at 9E had not bent over and took it from NWA, you'd still be flying J31's and "pink" Saabs. You guys took crap pay, screwed your FO's and gave XJ a bunch of hand me down Saabs. (Including one that rolled into a ditch.)

You say your a Capt. at 9E? So I would be willing to bet that you came on when 9E was making you pay for the honor of working for them... I guess that's makes you way above the ************************* guy...

Actually... I wasn't here during the last contract negotiations, so I can't speak to what happened then.

To answer your last question, no, I wasn't one of the PFT people. I was a street Captain who was paid during training. Look at my sig on the left, I came up flight instructing then flying King Airs, Lears, then the 727 before here. Yes, I worked my butt off to get here. No, I didn't sh*t on anyone else on the way. Yes, that makes me above any G0 Jets pilot. Clear?

O.K. "Richard" ... Your crusade will last about 6 months or so until a new arch enemy of the regional airline profession is crowned. Do whatever you like if it makes you feel important. If you spend the time it takes to keep these lists with you I'm sure you have no other more important issues to occupy your mind.

Took about 5 minutes to put these lists combined in my PDA. When the next "arch-enemy" is crowned, they'll get added too. Doesn't make me feel important, makes me feel like I'm upholding the ETHICAL and MORAL standards this profession is SUPPOSED to be committed to.

And I'm not in any big minority. When I flew 121 and commuted I hardly ever ran in to any jumpseat Nazi captains like yourself. My guess is that the GJ pilots make it to work just fine. Just to prove my point can I ask how many GJ pilots you have personally refused a jumpseat to ??? My bet is ZERO. If so, you're just full of it aren't you... So keep taking the high road Capt...

Jumpseat Nazi? Sure. What you said. My jumpseat is ALWAYS open to professionals who have earned the privilege... remember that one? "Jumpseating is a PRIVILEGE"...? How many GJ pilots have I refused a seat to? One. Three weeks ago. Pretty pissed off guy... too bad.

On a sidenote, the day may come when you will need a ride and a *************************s flight is the only way to work or home. You had better hope that they don't treat you as you would treat them.

It might... and I will simply find a hotel room rather than ask for the jumpseat. Luckily, neither G0 Jets nor Freedom / Mesa goes anywhere I need to go 99.9% of the time.

If I were you I'd be more concerned with how your friends at NWA, i.e Steenland, is srewing you with the upcoming furloughs. Or perhaps staying off of Terry Meffords radar screen.

I file too many grievances to stay off TM's radar for very long.

As far as being concerned about how NWA is going to screw us or, as you mentioned later in your post, directing my energy to thwart management, I have a news flash for you. There's nothing I can do except back my MEC and contract negotiator's 110% when they are battling the company. Being familiar with the RLA you should know that.

Working in this industry is difficult enough without you and your compatriots at TSA adding to the misery.

Go ahead deny some poor smuck your jumpseat that just needs a job to feed his family and is trying to get home to spend the little time he has off with them.

If that really makes you feel good.

Home Depot pays better than years 1-3 F/O - they can feed their family from there and wait for a job that doesn't SCREW OTHER PEOPLE to come available. It doesn't make me "feel good", but I have no sympathy for them either.

The guys that went to work there are not scabs! There is no strike! They did not cross any picket line! And most importantly, they did not take anyone's job!

I didn't say they WERE Scabs. I said they were one SMALL step above Scabs, and I will treat them as such. As for taking someone's job... how long do you think it will be until TSA starts shrinking TSA while growing G0 Jets if the TSA pilots don't cave? If the TSA pilots hold their ground, how much fear do you think management has of them walking when G0 Jets is there to immediately take up the slack?

That's what I thought.

Unlike the scab mechanics at NWA! Do you let those scabs non-rev on your flights ?!?!?!?! I bet they're on your plane more often then you know.

Possibly, and I'd LOVE to be able to do that, but I have no control over who's in the back. Bad comparison... but you get an A for effort.

Has the practice of refusing jumpseats because of labor issues not been going on before regional jets, regional pilots, or even having an airline pilot under the age of 30 even existed? This isn't exactly a new thing, chief. Its been going on for many years.

BINGO!

 

[synchoff]

h25b, why do you keep defending these guys?

Uh, because words have meaning? Particularly labels?

A-holes, maybe. Whipsawer's, absolutely. Scabs, no (not yet, anyway).

 

[h25b]

I dare you to go through all my posts and find one instance where I called CHQ "bottom feeders."

Here ya go...

And we'll have to give up a whole lot in pay increases and work rule improvements that everyone will call us true bottom-feeders right up there with CHQ and Mesa.

Has the practice of refusing jumpseats because of labor issues not been going on before regional jets, regional pilots, or even having an airline pilot under the age of 30 even existed? This isn't exactly a new thing, chief. Its been going on for many years.

This is where your ignorance shines... There's a lot of dumb things that have been going on for years. Does participating in it make it right ??? It has been going on for a while and perhaps you could tell us all what it has gotten us ??? NOWHERE... It's created the situation that we're in now. Having airline pilots under the age of thirty is part of the problem. It creates the division that currently exists amongst the profession which is part of the reason we're in the mess that we're in. Thanks "chief", I appreciate your boundless insight...

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Having airline pilots under the age of thirty is part of the problem.

So how old were you when you took that job at CHQ?

 

[h25b]

So how old were you when you took that job at CHQ?

Under 30... Now that I'm over 30 and have been away I can see much clearer. A little more age, a wife, and two kids will teach you not to worry about things that are out of your hands. This whole scheme has been hatched by TSA management. LEGALLY I might add. Nothing has been done outside of TSA scope clause and the GJ pilots have crossed no picket line. So the TSA pilots have no one to blame other than themselves for negotiating a short sighted CBA. It'll be a tough lesson, the same lesson we had to learn at CHQ...

I'm not trying to defend these guys, just pointing out how stupid, pointless, and juvenile your whole quest is... Look back at your airline history. There's always been people willing to cross picket lines. Check out the NWA mechanic's situation. Trying to blacklist/scablist pilots accomplishes nothing and trying to do the same to pilots that aren't even scabs to begin with will achieve even less. But hey, if you've got the time by all means go for it.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Under 30...

So what you're saying is......you were an under 30 airline pilot therefore contributing the degradation of our profession? Tisk tisk.

 

[h25b]

So what you're saying is......you were an under 30 airline pilot therefore contributing the degradation of our profession? Tisk tisk.

Yep, and you're proving my point post by post...

But since you are unable to quote my entire response here ya go...

Under 30... Now that I'm over 30 and have been away I can see much clearer. A little more age, a wife, and two kids will teach you not to worry about things that are out of your hands. This whole scheme has been hatched by TSA management. LEGALLY I might add. Nothing has been done outside of TSA scope clause and the GJ pilots have crossed no picket line. So the TSA pilots have no one to blame other than themselves for negotiating a short sighted CBA. It'll be a tough lesson, the same lesson we had to learn at CHQ...

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Yep, and you're proving my point post by post...

But since you are unable to quote my entire response here ya go...

There really is no validity to your "point"....which is apparent by the fact that hardly anyone on this thread agrees with you. I'm really just messing with you now.

 

[h25b]

There really is no validity to your "point"....which is apparent by the fact that hardly anyone on this thread agrees with you. I'm really just messing with you now.

I wouldn't expect anything different in the regionals forum. Likewise to the "just messing with you..."

 

[Redmeat]

There really is no validity to your "point"....which is apparent by the fact that hardly anyone on this thread agrees with you. I'm really just messing with you now.

I agree with him (h25b) whole heartedly.

I've just been biting my tongue while the blood was squirting out of my mouth.

Whether you regional guys realize it or not, the whole regional airline concept was created by management in the late 80's, early 90's to circumnavigate MAINLINE pilot wages. Back then mainline was refered to as THE AIRLINES.

So technically ALL regional pilots are the forefathers of GJ's.

It sucks when it's your turn to get screwed, doesn't it?

 

[jetfo]

Hello Richard:

Oh no doubt... our management can't staff and operate an airline to save their life. Doesn't change what G0 Jets pilots are doing.


Yes it was. One major difference - 9E wasn't purchased to operate as a Mesaba alter-ego and take aircraft deliveries and flights that Mesaba already had been awarded, and Mesaba wasn't shrunk as 9E grew. That's the major difference. NWA's wages won't hinge on us at all - the BR judge in the 1113(c) filing won't be comparing them to us, they'll be comparing them to other legacy carriers.

I agree though, our salaries and people who accept them ARE part of the problem, just in a different way than you mean - G0 Jets is part of the same problem in the same vein; they are willing to undercut another pilot group for a job.


Actually... I wasn't here during the last contract negotiations, so I can't speak to what happened then.

To answer your last question, no, I wasn't one of the PFT people. I was a street Captain who was paid during training. Look at my sig on the left, I came up flight instructing then flying King Airs, Lears, then the 727 before here. Yes, I worked my butt off to get here. No, I didn't sh*t on anyone else on the way. Yes, that makes me above any G0 Jets pilot. Clear?


Took about 5 minutes to put these lists combined in my PDA. When the next "arch-enemy" is crowned, they'll get added too. Doesn't make me feel important, makes me feel like I'm upholding the ETHICAL and MORAL standards this profession is SUPPOSED to be committed to.


Jumpseat Nazi? Sure. What you said. My jumpseat is ALWAYS open to professionals who have earned the privilege... remember that one? "Jumpseating is a PRIVILEGE"...? How many GJ pilots have I refused a seat to? One. Three weeks ago. Pretty pissed off guy... too bad.


It might... and I will simply find a hotel room rather than ask for the jumpseat. Luckily, neither G0 Jets nor Freedom / Mesa goes anywhere I need to go 99.9% of the time.


I file too many grievances to stay off TM's radar for very long.

As far as being concerned about how NWA is going to screw us or, as you mentioned later in your post, directing my energy to thwart management, I have a news flash for you. There's nothing I can do except back my MEC and contract negotiator's 110% when they are battling the company. Being familiar with the RLA you should know that.


Home Depot pays better than years 1-3 F/O - they can feed their family from there and wait for a job that doesn't SCREW OTHER PEOPLE to come available. It doesn't make me "feel good", but I have no sympathy for them either.


I didn't say they WERE Scabs. I said they were one SMALL step above Scabs, and I will treat them as such. As for taking someone's job... how long do you think it will be until TSA starts shrinking TSA while growing G0 Jets if the TSA pilots don't cave? If the TSA pilots hold their ground, how much fear do you think management has of them walking when G0 Jets is there to immediately take up the slack?

That's what I thought.


Possibly, and I'd LOVE to be able to do that, but I have no control over who's in the back. Bad comparison... but you get an A for effort.


BINGO!

I appreciate your reply. I still repectfully disagree. I think pilots should support other pilots and not allow management to play us off against each other. We are just playing into their hands. They are screwing us!

All I can tell you, even knowing your position, if I were at GoooJets and you asked me for the jumpseat I would still give it to you unless you were obnoxious. We need to support each other not fight amongst ourselves. It's the airline management and ALPA national that is selling us out. The rest of us are just trying to make a living doing what we love to do. (Which by the way is being exploited by management at every opportunity)

We are all in the same boat and we better start figuring out who our friends are and who we are up against. Otherwise this profession will not be worth pursuing if Duane Worthless continues protecting mainline interest at the expense of the ever increasing regionals. Which, by the way are not regionals at all by any rational definition. They are taking over mainline flying everywhere.

The main problem isn't alter ego operations, the main problem is that ALPA has allowed flying to be outsourced to the lowest bidder. If we don't put a stop to this soon, Mesa will be flying 737's as regionals and have the majority of "regional" flying at commuter cost.

We need to advance the idea that ALPA needs to establish a national pay structure by seat numbers or weight. And, maybe this will finally stop this playing off regionals against regionals and regionals against majors ( if there are any left).

And Richard, maybe next time you are asked for the jumpseat by someone maybe think about the fact that they are not trying to take advantage, but may just be trying to survive in this industry, as many of us are.

You are certainly welcome in my jumpseat anytime. Take care!

 

[Bushhatesyou]

woops

 

[Bushhatesyou]

Actually... I wasn't here during the last contract negotiations, so I can't speak to what happened then.

To answer your last question, no, I wasn't one of the PFT people. I was a street Captain who was paid during training. Look at my sig on the left, I came up flight instructing then flying King Airs, Lears, then the 727 before here. Yes, I worked my butt off to get here. No, I didn't sh*t on anyone else on the way. Yes, that makes me above any G0 Jets pilot. Clear?

Im sure many of the Glo Jets guys have "paid their way" as flight instructors, ect. My point is, 9E was once considered to be a piece of S!it, and their work force to be bottom of the barrel. You guys sold your selves out while hurting XJ pilots in process.

The Glo Jets pilots are not the ones to be blamed, the managment is. No matter how much you complain, how much you threaten to deny a jumpseat to some guy trying to get home for his son's birthday. There will always be companies like Glo Jets, and pilots will always work for them. The best thing you can to is educate and try to stand together, instead of piss and moan..

You know what the diffrence between a pilot and a jet engine is right???

 

[Lear70]

jetFO, I appreciate your ideals, I really do. It would be GREAT if we could all band together to fight a common enemy - I just don't see TSA pilots holding hands with the G0 Jets pilots after their management stonewalls the TSA negotiating committee for a few more years and they end up walking away without a job or signing a sh*tty contract because management doesn't fear a strike - they now have a backup plan.

Honestly, I can see your point about a lot of the G0 Jets pilots not knowing any better and just trying to get by in aviation, but I just can't bring myself to condone that kind of self-serving justification. Being a 3rd generation pilot I was raised differently I guess and just have a very low tolerance level for it.

I guess we'll just have to "agree to disagree".

Bush, you're exactly right on that last part. That's why I said I sincerely hope the TSA guys are being aggressive in going to these new-hires and educating them on what they're doing to the TSA pilots and their bargaining position.

Education is the key. Hell, it's the key to EVERYTHING. I'm also one of those people who would gladly form a national group of pilots to go to aviation campuses everywhere on "education missions" to let them know what they're really in for with the future of aviation.

Dry up the supply of willing low-hour, low-wage pilots and we might have the start of some recovery in this industry. *sigh*

Meat, can't argue with you there. Didn't EVER think I'd be at a regional - wasn't in the career plans. Wish we'd known a decade ago that eventually the regionals might grow to outsize their parent carriers in terms of daily departures...

p.s. Bush, 9E is STILL considered a piece of sh*t...

 

[SkyBoy1981]

the whole regional airline concept was created by management in the late 80's, early 90's to circumnavigate MAINLINE pilot wages.

I think you know that the above statement is pure bullsh1t, but I'm not naive enough to fall into your trap. In case you need a refresher, regional jets nor "regional airlines" existed in the 80's or even early 90's. I'm not very old, but even I know that. During that time there were "commuter airlines" and there were "major airlines". The "commuter airlines" were created to provide turboprop service. You make it sound as though companies like Comair were originally formed to take mainline jobs...give me a break. What were they going to do it with? Their Navajos? The truth is, whenever the RJ came onto the market some of these "commuter airlines" began buying them and became something larger known as "regional airlines". THIS is where you mainline folks failed to secure your own jobs by standing up and demanding scope to keep your jet flying. You can blame everyone else if you want, but you all are the ones who did not want the regional jets or see it as a threat from the beginning.

 

[Redmeat]

Back then they were called commuters

Good-Night!