Whats so great about working at a major?

[Mooseflyer]

To put it blatenly, we need less of you in this profession. It's obvious you're not in aviation for the love of flying. Maybe you should've taken that 20 secured yourself an intro to law school.

CM

Actually, to put it bluntly, we need less of YOU in this profession. The "I can't believe they pay me to fly a jet" crowd is a large reason our collective bargaining is in the crapper. Combine that with the RLA and the outdated seniority system, and we (labor) don't stand a chance.

I enjoy some of the benefits of the job as much as the next guy, but it's just a JOB.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Actually, to put it bluntly, we need less of YOU in this profession. The "I can't believe they pay me to fly a jet" crowd is a large reason our collective bargaining is in the crapper. Combine that with the RLA and the outdated seniority system, and we (labor) don't stand a chance.

I enjoy some of the benefits of the job as much as the next guy, but it's just a JOB.

I'm sure you do, but did the Air Force pay you 300K a year to fly the C17 doing manuevers like what is in your picture?

 

[flyf15]

I'm sure you do, but did the Air Force pay you 300K a year to fly the C17 doing manuever like is in your picture?

I dunno about you, but I would personally would fly a C-17 around for free.

 

[Mud Eagle]

I'm sure you do, but did the Air Force pay you 300K a year to fly the C17 doing manuevers like what is in your picture?

Once they start calling airlines "the service" and having your work there contribute to the safety and security of the nation, then that's a fair comparison.

Until then, it's completely apples and oranges. Nobody goes into the military for the great QOL or pay.

 

[Captain Morgan]

Actually, to put it bluntly, we need less of YOU in this profession. The "I can't believe they pay me to fly a jet" crowd is a large reason our collective bargaining is in the crapper. Combine that with the RLA and the outdated seniority system, and we (labor) don't stand a chance.

I enjoy some of the benefits of the job as much as the next guy, but it's just a JOB.

Actually, I'm not a "I can't believe they pay me to fly a jet" person. I left flying an 145 to fly a lear and king air. I couldn't care what I fly, but I take pride in it and I still fight for pay, qol, and schedule.

CM

 

[hopalong]

What's your point? 2nd career or not- what are you arguing for? Status quo? More pay cuts?

Lesson #1 for your perspective-- airline pilot's don't get a true "market" wage. He's beating his chest b/c of what you already pointed out-- Nobody OUTSIDE of flying CARES or UNDERSTANDS about the true nature of the issues facing an airline pilot. If we negotiate $30k or $300k they don't give a damn- They worry about their lives... What everyone on this board is concerned about are PILOTS who think they aren't worth what we get paid-even w/ 55% paycuts. That pisses me off b/c we collectively bargain- your lack of pride and value for what you do brings down MY wages. It also is disrespectful to your career and the responsibility you have as an aviator. I'm not saving the world as you point out=-= but there are more than a few times every year where if I'm not VERY good at what i do-- a lot of people die, a lot of $capital is lost, and a lot of economic good will is lost as well. That's not dramatic- just reality-and if you don't get that THAT responsibility is valuable- you NEED PERSPECTIVE. I get tired of pilots who aren't as good as me-don't respect aviation as much as me, and thus-don't work as hard as me- tell me that i'm not worth what i know i am. Not everyone can do what I do. That has been proven to me many times over. If you think everyone CAN- maybe you're not doing this job the right way.

My point wouldn't contradict yours- Airlines do not govern my HAPPINESS- and I don't bitch-- i love my job every day-- THEN get involved and vote the right way.

Excellent Post!!!! Amen brother! With the current "pilot shortage" we are all in an excellent position to demand what we are worth! And we are worth a whole lot more than we are being paid now. With as much responsibility as we have much is expected.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Scrapdog - you crap all over someone else's choice then preemptively tell them not to throw any back?

New hire pay at current "majors:"

CAL $31*
SkyBus $31.58
US Air $41
AirTran $43
DAL $49
FedEx: $56

*Only one of these makes you purchase insurance outside of your employment during your first year.

No one "crapped" on CAL like you did other folks choices. If you really want a typical Flightinfo degradation of a thread to a monkey throwing crap fight, we can start a SkyBus versus CAL thread

 

[aewanabe]

Scrapdog-
1. Thanks for your service.

2. Did you ever fly an RJ? Methinks not. Of course there's a bunch of airplanes that are more fun to fly (a 1975 BE-58 being one of them, or an old Stearman or Cub), but in the world of future beer cans flying ma and pa from A to B, the little jets actually are "fun". I could do lots of things safely and legally in an E145 that wouldn't work in bigger jets.

3. I have no doubt that an F- anything is 200 times more exciting than what we do for a living now. Again I am grateful for your service; on the other hand you should be grateful for the opportunity to go fly something fun on weekends. Those of us without that opportunity choose to find our "fun" in flying our jets precisely, smoothly, turning off the toys and eye-balling it in, etc. It's not necessary to constantly remind us that it's not Mach 2 with our hair on fire; we already know that.

4. I don't know what Delta you've been riding on, but I find them to be neck and neck with CO for aircraft cleanliness, quality of product, and the like. They also chose to put some padding in their coach seats, unlike any CO seven-three I've ever ridden on. YMMV.

To the OP: I'm at JB after leaving top 25 percent seniority at RAH. JB is probably best classified as a near-major, and I'm commuting to reserve on the "express" airplane (in-house joke for the 190). It's still loads better than the regional was for me, mostly for the reasons already listed (jetways, live airplanes when I start work, working for the brand instead of contractor, etc.). That's with acknowledging that the overall compensation here still has room for quite a bit of improvement. Good luck in your decision.

 

[AA717driver]

Part of how the collective bargaining process has been skewed is that we are lumped in with all the other employees--we have allowed that.

"Everyone gets part of one big pie." Bull. To have to fight it out with rampers, agents and facility hygiene specialists for a piece of the pie is crap.

Years ago, we dropped the ball and failed to establish a national contract that all members of the union would work under (THAT would eliminate the issue of non-union carriers) or else. You set a requirement for insurance and retirement. You get your card when you get hired by an airline and mergers are DOH with fences.

You don't like it, stay in the military or go corporate.
TC

P.S.--We all know the only reason Mudeagle and Scrapdog went in the AF was 'cause chicks dig guys in 'bags'...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Scrapdog.... you must be drinking allot these days...you keep pissing in everyones sandbox.... me thinks you'd never make.... 0-6..... or 0-5!

 

[Whine Lover]

SkyBus...A Major?

Hhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Good one.!


Yeah a major POS maybe, but they IN NO WAY even REMOTELY qualify as a Major Airline.

And never will.

YKW

 

[thor2j]

Since everyone always throws CAL under the bus I will slightly defend them. 6 year pay wb, which is 5 years on the property, $117/hr, which will put you well over $100,000 with actual flying and if you never go to work on reserve you will still make 100k. Not quite the 10-12 years to make the infamous 100k level. In reality it will only take you 2-3 years on the property to make $100k.

 

[puddlejumper101]

I can only speak for myself. 7 year captain at a regional and I will make more $$$ this year as first year F/O at SWA. Second year...over 100K easily. That's just the money...the QOL is awesome...so I would leave a regional in a heartbeat...Beggars can't be choosers and I definately think long-term there is a huge difference between regional and major.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Self-righteous anyone? You fly a plane. Circumstances have dictated what payscales 121 pilots are making currently for being responsible for flying people from point A to point B. But you didn't discover the cure for cancer brother, you fly planes. You're not the only one in this country sacrificing, nor the only one working, or at the very least with the perception of having worked, twice as hard to get to the same place.

90K with a semblance of QOL is nothing to scoff at. Now, is it true that today's economy forces the middle class to be two-income households by default and therefore a single person earning 90K isn't what it used to be? Absolutely. But everybody has a bloated perception of the value of one's work when compared to other careers.

I used to see this coming out of college with an engineering degree. People b%tching and whining about how they should start at X salary and they deserve more, ad naseaum. Guess what, nobody cares you fly a plane, like nobody cared I had additional education when I decided to pursue flying professionally. Just like nobody cares you feel your chosen profession should be compensated more compared to "90% of the country".

The key to keeping perspective is to make comparisons in terms of opportunity cost, rather than let your entitlement complex get out of control. You wanna make 200K+ in a "timely" fashion and feel flying a plane, current QOL and other externalities considered, is not getting you there? Hedge your bets and make the appropriate career changes and see what happens. But pounding your chest and screaming "I deserve more, I am worth more than 90% of earners because I have sacrificed soooo much" does nothing to reinforce your argument that pilots should be compensated more (which for the level of responsibility at the regional level I believe they should).

Just some perspective is all.

How long have you been in this business sir?

My previous experience in this business (other than flight instructing) could have NOTHING do do with my opinion of self worth, could it?

My previous experience seeing pay rates and working conditions be WHAT THEY WERE couldn't have anything to do with my opinion of what pay rates should be.

My opinion that what we do is FAR from the normal profession (notice I didn't say job), therefore wht shouldit command simply average pay? In many situations, the profession is paying far less than the median salary. FAR LESS.

My opinion couldn't have been formed by witnessing how pilots react to the string pulling of a management team that consistently does what is right for them while fleecing the industry, could it?

And my opinion could HARDLY be influenced by reading the repeated yarns of younglings like yourself that would just as soon PAY THEM to fly a plane then make a decent wage in exchange for the flawless perfromance of your craft: Flying Airplanes.

It's sickening really.

Self rightous? Maybe. Proud? You had better believe it. Of the opinion that we could ALL do a crapload better than what we are now? Hell YEZZ.

Please get a few years under your belt and attach a few responsibilites to your bottom line before you judge my words.

By 30 something, every man knows that there are only so many hours in the day, so many years left in their career. I want to make each and every one count where it matters; the pocketbook. I'll bequeath all of the snazzy sunsets and cloud surfing moments to starving artists like yourself.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Actually, I'm not a "I can't believe they pay me to fly a jet" person. I left flying an 145 to fly a lear and king air. I couldn't care what I fly, but I take pride in it and I still fight for pay, qol, and schedule.

CM

Ahhh, another one who get's it. :beer:

 

[FurloughedAgain]

By 30 something, every man knows that there are only so many hours in the day, so many years left in their career. I want to make each and every one count where it matters; the pocketbook. I'll bequeath all of the snazzy sunsets and cloud surfing moments to starving artists like yourself.

I'll agree with this if I could make one minor change.

"I want to make each and every one count where it matters; time with family."

I'm willing to put a dollar value on lifestyle. I'll sacrifice some pay. Some big shiny jet. Some overnight in a faraway land in exchange for time at home with family.

 

[waveflyer]

when will we stop chasing the carrot and eat the f---er

...and if you believe any of the above -- you've just been "punked"

'It'll be so great when i'm a flight instructor-- oh wait- that sucks and i make $8k/year- well when i get to the regionals- then life'll be good- oh...well- umm junior manned and living in a crashpad in DC over christmas for $19k- student loans due? i can't eat...but it'll be better when i get to 2nd year pay- Furloughed? Oh man company went under....1st year pay again- another crashpad over christmas- but life'll be good when i make captain- that's it- ... junior manned again- I make $60k 8 years later than all my college friends not in aviation -but it's alright- things will really be great when i get to a major-- ............if you're real good- pass the interview--- your reward is 1st year pay again and junior again....but it'll be good when i get to a widebody right? - left seat? left seat widebody? well maybe if ....?? ......'

HOW ABOUT WE ALL WORK ON MAKING EVERY JOB GOOD RIGHT NOW.

That should be all our focus. Looking out for the bottom guys sends so many messages, and gives us all leverage in negotiations. We'll sell our soul to avoid some of the bad jobs that we've allowed into our industry- AND ALL THAT CREATES IS MORE BAD JOBS- EVEN WITHIN YOUR OWN AIRLINE

 

[hindsight2020]

'It'll be so great when i'm a flight instructor-- oh wait- that sucks and i make $8k/year- well when i get to the regionals- then life'll be good- oh...well- umm junior manned and living in a crashpad in DC over christmas for $19k- student loans due? i can't eat...but it'll be better when i get to 2nd year pay- Furloughed? Oh man company went under....1st year pay again- another crashpad over christmas- but life'll be good when i make captain- that's it- ... junior manned again- I make $60k 8 years later than all my college friends not in aviation -but it's alright- things will really be great when i get to a major-- ............if you're real good- pass the interview--- your reward is 1st year pay again and junior again....but it'll be good when i get to a widebody right? - left seat? left seat widebody? well maybe if ....?? ......'

HOW ABOUT WE ALL WORK ON MAKING EVERY JOB GOOD RIGHT NOW.

That should be all our focus. Looking out for the bottom guys sends so many messages, and gives us all leverage in negotiations. We'll sell our soul to avoid some of the bad jobs that we've allowed into our industry- AND ALL THAT CREATES IS MORE BAD JOBS- EVEN WITHIN YOUR OWN AIRLINE

And ^^^^^^^ was the intent of my original post flylow. I think something got lost in translation or you misunderstood my criticism of the 90K comment. I never suggested things were rosey in terms of pilot compensation (TAFB argument and the true market wage comparison noted), but I do honestly believe that 90K, while not what it used to be, is a liveable wage. Yeah it sucks that the wife also has to go to work to make a middle class income for the proverbial family of 4, but that's something everybody is wrestling with, not just pilots. That general acknowledgement of the median American doesn't make me a starving artist. Once again, it's an opportunity cost. Realizing that there are other ways of making 90K is not a concession to the indutry, it's just a way of recognizing that there is an opportunity cost to trying to make a living as a pilot. That doesn't imply I have a low sense of worth in my work or that I don't work hard enough as a pilot, that's where your post struck me as self-righteous. You just want to chastize me because I recognize that there's a whole lot of SJS and people flying on ramen noodles at the regional level already, and pounding my chest about them and about management won't change that reality one bit.

I happen to be of the "perspective" that fighting for a liveable wage at the regional level is a more reasonable pursuit than say, splitting hairs over 10-year widebody CA and whether it should be $225 rather than $185/hr. To suggest these people are struggling, by virtue of having been compensated better 10 years ago, is ludicrous. To suppose a fight to increase wages at this level would impact regional FO's wage is also questionable in my book. Call me a socialist, that was all I was trying to get across. I agree with you on all points regarding the level of responsibility a pilot has and how compensation needs to reflect that (it currently doesn't at the regional level IMO). But effectively arguing things need to get back to regulation era wages is something I don't think is realistic nor productive in the bigger spectrum of the question of how to make a living as an airline pilot.

 

[Scrapdog]

Scrapdog-
1. Thanks for your service.

2. Did you ever fly an RJ? Methinks not. Of course there's a bunch of airplanes that are more fun to fly (a 1975 BE-58 being one of them, or an old Stearman or Cub), but in the world of future beer cans flying ma and pa from A to B, the little jets actually are "fun". I could do lots of things safely and legally in an E145 that wouldn't work in bigger jets.

3. I have no doubt that an F- anything is 200 times more exciting than what we do for a living now. Again I am grateful for your service; on the other hand you should be grateful for the opportunity to go fly something fun on weekends. Those of us without that opportunity choose to find our "fun" in flying our jets precisely, smoothly, turning off the toys and eye-balling it in, etc. It's not necessary to constantly remind us that it's not Mach 2 with our hair on fire; we already know that.

4. I don't know what Delta you've been riding on, but I find them to be neck and neck with CO for aircraft cleanliness, quality of product, and the like. They also chose to put some padding in their coach seats, unlike any CO seven-three I've ever ridden on. YMMV.

To the OP: I'm at JB after leaving top 25 percent seniority at RAH. JB is probably best classified as a near-major, and I'm commuting to reserve on the "express" airplane (in-house joke for the 190). It's still loads better than the regional was for me, mostly for the reasons already listed (jetways, live airplanes when I start work, working for the brand instead of contractor, etc.). That's with acknowledging that the overall compensation here still has room for quite a bit of improvement. Good luck in your decision.

I've been riding on the Delta that is based out of ATL and to this day I find absolutely no improvement in their customer service. I do believe there is only one DAL...and I'm 99.9% sure that's the same DAL you've been riding on.

I never meant to remind you that you're not going Mach 2...and quite frankly that was not the intention of my post. What did make me give the prior poster the whale eye was the fact he said a 737 is "difficult" to fly while an RJ is easier and quite a bit of fun. Honestly (and I'm not trying to be a jerk whatsoever), flying a large airplane with quite a bit of automation (even on the 737-300 with the round dials) is not very challenging. It does get challenging with some nasty crosswinds...but besides that it's pretty routine. LOL - quite a bit different than a wing leveler that most fighters have. So, from the initial point of the entire thread (i.e. what's so great about going to a major) the guy should realize that if he does go to a major, the difficulty of flying a larger airliner probably doesn't change one iota....and shouldn't stop him one bit if he decides to move up.

 

[Scrapdog]

Scrapdog.... you must be drinking allot these days...you keep pissing in everyones sandbox.... me thinks you'd never make.... 0-6..... or 0-5!

Rez, you could have fooled me...with your extremely low situational awareness on military matters from the last military thread you decided to weasel your way in on, I didn't even know you knew what "0-6" or "0-5" meant. Don't worry, when I pin on 0-5 I'll send you an invite.

I think there's another jumpseating thread you can brag about on in the regional's section. Your advice is needed asap.

 

[LandGreen]

Just having a little fun. I didn't take anything as a "shot". I spent over 4 years at a Legacy so I felt like I could poke a little fun at your post. Lighten up.

Fox:

Although flying cargo will make you MUCH more money...did you read the current research about life longevity vs circadian cycle disruptions?

Bottom line from research: don't work past your normal bedtime. and even worse, don't work flip flop night/day schedules!

However, you will make tons of money while you are alive!

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-11-29-night-shift-cancer_N.htm

 

[Uniform Shop]

Point being...5 years to 100K as an FO is nowhere near correct with todays pay scales.[/QUOTE

Yes it is and that's without trying. As much as I would like to fly a 72 hour line it's not going to happen unless you are on reserve. 80-85 hours is more like it.

5th year WB pay at CAL

72 hours * 107 = $92,448

83 hours * 107 = $106,572

"Point being" You can count on making at least $100,000 at 5th year mark at CAL and I'm assuming the same at most majors unless you intentionally fly worst case scenario. You would have to work really hard to only make $85,000 at 5th year mark.

That's not including the $6,000 to $8,000 in profit sharing either.

 

[waveflyer]

splitting hairs over 10-year widebody CA and whether it should be $225 rather than $185/hr. To suggest these people are struggling, by virtue of having been compensated better 10 years ago, is ludicrous.

I would say that's more than splitting hairs- the difference is $40/hour(!) That's more than many FO and turboprop captains make, period. We have set up our career so that we sacrifice what we are to make now, for the widebody pay we expect later-(backwards thinking(!)) only to see it reduced by >30-40% and then have $millions in pension benefits stolen- I can see how a widebody captain could very legitimately be struggling.

Perspective? Ok- i'll grant you- i don't live in Darfur right now, and i'm grateful everyday for my existence period. But i will also take pride in what i do and negotiate for my value. More importantly i'll speak out against the underhanded techniques that government and management have used since 9/11 to extort these huge concessions.

So again- i'll ask- what's your point? Seems you view this topic through the eyes of being experienced in a professional free market. There are many differences, some subtle-some glaring, that make an airline career very different from any other.

I'm sorry to jump on you- but i take exception to the "you fly a plane..." comment. You're damn right i fly a plane-just like most of us on these boards- and i do it professionally, safely, and with pride everyday. I'm not narcissistic or an ego-maniac, we simply do something safely every day in which fair weather pilot doctors and lawyers, athletes and celebrities of all kinds of intellect manage to kill themselves trying to do every year. I have not lost sight of the fact that it is us, ALL OF US, and our training, abilities, and decision making that make this airspace system so safe.

I'll be down to earth- but i hope i always take exception to anyone who tries to marginalize my career and it's worth.

 

[instructordude]

I've been riding on the Delta that is based out of ATL and to this day I find absolutely no improvement in their customer service. I do believe there is only one DAL...and I'm 99.9% sure that's the same DAL you've been riding on.

I never meant to remind you that you're not going Mach 2...and quite frankly that was not the intention of my post. What did make me give the prior poster the whale eye was the fact he said a 737 is "difficult" to fly while an RJ is easier and quite a bit of fun. Honestly (and I'm not trying to be a jerk whatsoever), flying a large airplane with quite a bit of automation (even on the 737-300 with the round dials) is not very challenging. It does get challenging with some nasty crosswinds...but besides that it's pretty routine. LOL - quite a bit different than a wing leveler that most fighters have. So, from the initial point of the entire thread (i.e. what's so great about going to a major) the guy should realize that if he does go to a major, the difficulty of flying a larger airliner probably doesn't change one iota....and shouldn't stop him one bit if he decides to move up.

So is an F-22 challenging with all the automation? I bet it is not but only made challenging by those who fly it.

 

[Mooseflyer]

Actually, I'm not a "I can't believe they pay me to fly a jet" person. I left flying an 145 to fly a lear and king air. I couldn't care what I fly, but I take pride in it and I still fight for pay, qol, and schedule.

CM

Well good on 'ya then. There is, of course, nothing wrong with actually enjoying your job. The problem lies in the fact that so many are chasing the elusive brass ring at the expense of everthing else (pay, QOL, family, fellow pilots, etc), that the brass ring is achievable by fewer and fewer pilots every year.

 

[igneousy2]

To put it blatenly, we need less of you in this profession. It's obvious you're not in aviation for the love of flying. Maybe you should've taken that 20 secured yourself an intro to law school.

CM

Yes I should have...but I didn't.

As to needing less of ones like me...you need MORE like me.

In most other occupations there is a floor to what the salary can be as compared to other occupations because as you lower pay/benefits people STOP doing it.

It is BECAUSE of the "I would fly for free" crowd that our pay/benefits are in the toilet and the trend is going in the wrong direction.

If you stopped paying plumbers...there would be no plumbers...if you stopped paying pilots...there would still be a line of "I love to fly" types at HR's door in the morning.

And since when is $108,000 for a 12th year FO ACCEPTABLE!!! GEEZ people, a 2nd year FO at UPS MAKES $120,000. 12th years FO's made $100,000plus in 1995...in 1995 dollars.

This career is in horrible shape and with the future of our retirements in the hands of guys like "instructor dude" ....geez its scary.

And by the way...I have 3 very close friends that went to law school instead of going to flight training like I did...and they are ALL making well over $100,000 (something I have yet to do in this industry) a year and one cleared 7 figures this year.

Our standards have really gone into the toilet.

 

[Mud Eagle]

So is an F-22 challenging with all the automation? I bet it is not but only made challenging by those who fly it.

Current fighters are easy to fly.

It's the tactical employment and operation of the sensors and weapon systems that's a b*tch.

 

[spacecadet1]

What I find ironic is to see a post which makes light of a $40/hr pay diff at a major. Then read the regional board and watch people trash talk each other about 2$/hr pay differences between regionals. "You ____ guys are whores...you make $61.50/hr. We are better than you...we make $63.60/hr..blah blah blah."
This industry is really going down the crapper.

 

[jke406]

I've been riding on the Delta that is based out of ATL and to this day I find absolutely no improvement in their customer service. I do believe there is only one DAL. .and I'm 99.9% sure that's the same DAL you've been riding on.
quote]

if you've got a problem with whatever airline you're commuting on, please feel free to not fly them in the future.

as it is, they are giving you a free ride to work, FREE. and the least you can do, if not applaud them, is not badmouth them publicly.

take your dogsh!t AF attitude somewhere else. and yes, I was in the AF, and yes, I did attend the same institution you did. Tool.

 

[Capi_Cafre']

You get to say "Regional Pukes" and mean it!

All of the tangible stuff, money, schedules etc. will be better if you move on, notwithstanding the short-term hit you'll take. It's when you start weighing the other stuff like commuting that it starts to get interesting. I think that the gap between the haves & have nots will continue to grow as management continues to play the alter ego game like a fine violin, so the rationale for staying at a regional would have to be even stronger than what would have made sense ten years ago.