Whats so great about working at a major?

[FurloughedAgain]

By 30 something, every man knows that there are only so many hours in the day, so many years left in their career. I want to make each and every one count where it matters; the pocketbook. I'll bequeath all of the snazzy sunsets and cloud surfing moments to starving artists like yourself.

I'll agree with this if I could make one minor change.

"I want to make each and every one count where it matters; time with family."

I'm willing to put a dollar value on lifestyle. I'll sacrifice some pay. Some big shiny jet. Some overnight in a faraway land in exchange for time at home with family.

 

[waveflyer]

when will we stop chasing the carrot and eat the f---er

...and if you believe any of the above -- you've just been "punked"

'It'll be so great when i'm a flight instructor-- oh wait- that sucks and i make $8k/year- well when i get to the regionals- then life'll be good- oh...well- umm junior manned and living in a crashpad in DC over christmas for $19k- student loans due? i can't eat...but it'll be better when i get to 2nd year pay- Furloughed? Oh man company went under....1st year pay again- another crashpad over christmas- but life'll be good when i make captain- that's it- ... junior manned again- I make $60k 8 years later than all my college friends not in aviation -but it's alright- things will really be great when i get to a major-- ............if you're real good- pass the interview--- your reward is 1st year pay again and junior again....but it'll be good when i get to a widebody right? - left seat? left seat widebody? well maybe if ....?? ......'

HOW ABOUT WE ALL WORK ON MAKING EVERY JOB GOOD RIGHT NOW.

That should be all our focus. Looking out for the bottom guys sends so many messages, and gives us all leverage in negotiations. We'll sell our soul to avoid some of the bad jobs that we've allowed into our industry- AND ALL THAT CREATES IS MORE BAD JOBS- EVEN WITHIN YOUR OWN AIRLINE

 

[hindsight2020]

'It'll be so great when i'm a flight instructor-- oh wait- that sucks and i make $8k/year- well when i get to the regionals- then life'll be good- oh...well- umm junior manned and living in a crashpad in DC over christmas for $19k- student loans due? i can't eat...but it'll be better when i get to 2nd year pay- Furloughed? Oh man company went under....1st year pay again- another crashpad over christmas- but life'll be good when i make captain- that's it- ... junior manned again- I make $60k 8 years later than all my college friends not in aviation -but it's alright- things will really be great when i get to a major-- ............if you're real good- pass the interview--- your reward is 1st year pay again and junior again....but it'll be good when i get to a widebody right? - left seat? left seat widebody? well maybe if ....?? ......'

HOW ABOUT WE ALL WORK ON MAKING EVERY JOB GOOD RIGHT NOW.

That should be all our focus. Looking out for the bottom guys sends so many messages, and gives us all leverage in negotiations. We'll sell our soul to avoid some of the bad jobs that we've allowed into our industry- AND ALL THAT CREATES IS MORE BAD JOBS- EVEN WITHIN YOUR OWN AIRLINE

And ^^^^^^^ was the intent of my original post flylow. I think something got lost in translation or you misunderstood my criticism of the 90K comment. I never suggested things were rosey in terms of pilot compensation (TAFB argument and the true market wage comparison noted), but I do honestly believe that 90K, while not what it used to be, is a liveable wage. Yeah it sucks that the wife also has to go to work to make a middle class income for the proverbial family of 4, but that's something everybody is wrestling with, not just pilots. That general acknowledgement of the median American doesn't make me a starving artist. Once again, it's an opportunity cost. Realizing that there are other ways of making 90K is not a concession to the indutry, it's just a way of recognizing that there is an opportunity cost to trying to make a living as a pilot. That doesn't imply I have a low sense of worth in my work or that I don't work hard enough as a pilot, that's where your post struck me as self-righteous. You just want to chastize me because I recognize that there's a whole lot of SJS and people flying on ramen noodles at the regional level already, and pounding my chest about them and about management won't change that reality one bit.

I happen to be of the "perspective" that fighting for a liveable wage at the regional level is a more reasonable pursuit than say, splitting hairs over 10-year widebody CA and whether it should be $225 rather than $185/hr. To suggest these people are struggling, by virtue of having been compensated better 10 years ago, is ludicrous. To suppose a fight to increase wages at this level would impact regional FO's wage is also questionable in my book. Call me a socialist, that was all I was trying to get across. I agree with you on all points regarding the level of responsibility a pilot has and how compensation needs to reflect that (it currently doesn't at the regional level IMO). But effectively arguing things need to get back to regulation era wages is something I don't think is realistic nor productive in the bigger spectrum of the question of how to make a living as an airline pilot.

 

[Scrapdog]

Scrapdog-
1. Thanks for your service.

2. Did you ever fly an RJ? Methinks not. Of course there's a bunch of airplanes that are more fun to fly (a 1975 BE-58 being one of them, or an old Stearman or Cub), but in the world of future beer cans flying ma and pa from A to B, the little jets actually are "fun". I could do lots of things safely and legally in an E145 that wouldn't work in bigger jets.

3. I have no doubt that an F- anything is 200 times more exciting than what we do for a living now. Again I am grateful for your service; on the other hand you should be grateful for the opportunity to go fly something fun on weekends. Those of us without that opportunity choose to find our "fun" in flying our jets precisely, smoothly, turning off the toys and eye-balling it in, etc. It's not necessary to constantly remind us that it's not Mach 2 with our hair on fire; we already know that.

4. I don't know what Delta you've been riding on, but I find them to be neck and neck with CO for aircraft cleanliness, quality of product, and the like. They also chose to put some padding in their coach seats, unlike any CO seven-three I've ever ridden on. YMMV.

To the OP: I'm at JB after leaving top 25 percent seniority at RAH. JB is probably best classified as a near-major, and I'm commuting to reserve on the "express" airplane (in-house joke for the 190). It's still loads better than the regional was for me, mostly for the reasons already listed (jetways, live airplanes when I start work, working for the brand instead of contractor, etc.). That's with acknowledging that the overall compensation here still has room for quite a bit of improvement. Good luck in your decision.

I've been riding on the Delta that is based out of ATL and to this day I find absolutely no improvement in their customer service. I do believe there is only one DAL...and I'm 99.9% sure that's the same DAL you've been riding on.

I never meant to remind you that you're not going Mach 2...and quite frankly that was not the intention of my post. What did make me give the prior poster the whale eye was the fact he said a 737 is "difficult" to fly while an RJ is easier and quite a bit of fun. Honestly (and I'm not trying to be a jerk whatsoever), flying a large airplane with quite a bit of automation (even on the 737-300 with the round dials) is not very challenging. It does get challenging with some nasty crosswinds...but besides that it's pretty routine. LOL - quite a bit different than a wing leveler that most fighters have. So, from the initial point of the entire thread (i.e. what's so great about going to a major) the guy should realize that if he does go to a major, the difficulty of flying a larger airliner probably doesn't change one iota....and shouldn't stop him one bit if he decides to move up.

 

[Scrapdog]

Scrapdog.... you must be drinking allot these days...you keep pissing in everyones sandbox.... me thinks you'd never make.... 0-6..... or 0-5!

Rez, you could have fooled me...with your extremely low situational awareness on military matters from the last military thread you decided to weasel your way in on, I didn't even know you knew what "0-6" or "0-5" meant. Don't worry, when I pin on 0-5 I'll send you an invite.

I think there's another jumpseating thread you can brag about on in the regional's section. Your advice is needed asap.

 

[LandGreen]

Just having a little fun. I didn't take anything as a "shot". I spent over 4 years at a Legacy so I felt like I could poke a little fun at your post. Lighten up.

Fox:

Although flying cargo will make you MUCH more money...did you read the current research about life longevity vs circadian cycle disruptions?

Bottom line from research: don't work past your normal bedtime. and even worse, don't work flip flop night/day schedules!

However, you will make tons of money while you are alive!

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-11-29-night-shift-cancer_N.htm

 

[Uniform Shop]

Point being...5 years to 100K as an FO is nowhere near correct with todays pay scales.[/QUOTE

Yes it is and that's without trying. As much as I would like to fly a 72 hour line it's not going to happen unless you are on reserve. 80-85 hours is more like it.

5th year WB pay at CAL

72 hours * 107 = $92,448

83 hours * 107 = $106,572

"Point being" You can count on making at least $100,000 at 5th year mark at CAL and I'm assuming the same at most majors unless you intentionally fly worst case scenario. You would have to work really hard to only make $85,000 at 5th year mark.

That's not including the $6,000 to $8,000 in profit sharing either.

 

[waveflyer]

splitting hairs over 10-year widebody CA and whether it should be $225 rather than $185/hr. To suggest these people are struggling, by virtue of having been compensated better 10 years ago, is ludicrous.

I would say that's more than splitting hairs- the difference is $40/hour(!) That's more than many FO and turboprop captains make, period. We have set up our career so that we sacrifice what we are to make now, for the widebody pay we expect later-(backwards thinking(!)) only to see it reduced by >30-40% and then have $millions in pension benefits stolen- I can see how a widebody captain could very legitimately be struggling.

Perspective? Ok- i'll grant you- i don't live in Darfur right now, and i'm grateful everyday for my existence period. But i will also take pride in what i do and negotiate for my value. More importantly i'll speak out against the underhanded techniques that government and management have used since 9/11 to extort these huge concessions.

So again- i'll ask- what's your point? Seems you view this topic through the eyes of being experienced in a professional free market. There are many differences, some subtle-some glaring, that make an airline career very different from any other.

I'm sorry to jump on you- but i take exception to the "you fly a plane..." comment. You're damn right i fly a plane-just like most of us on these boards- and i do it professionally, safely, and with pride everyday. I'm not narcissistic or an ego-maniac, we simply do something safely every day in which fair weather pilot doctors and lawyers, athletes and celebrities of all kinds of intellect manage to kill themselves trying to do every year. I have not lost sight of the fact that it is us, ALL OF US, and our training, abilities, and decision making that make this airspace system so safe.

I'll be down to earth- but i hope i always take exception to anyone who tries to marginalize my career and it's worth.

 

[instructordude]

I've been riding on the Delta that is based out of ATL and to this day I find absolutely no improvement in their customer service. I do believe there is only one DAL...and I'm 99.9% sure that's the same DAL you've been riding on.

I never meant to remind you that you're not going Mach 2...and quite frankly that was not the intention of my post. What did make me give the prior poster the whale eye was the fact he said a 737 is "difficult" to fly while an RJ is easier and quite a bit of fun. Honestly (and I'm not trying to be a jerk whatsoever), flying a large airplane with quite a bit of automation (even on the 737-300 with the round dials) is not very challenging. It does get challenging with some nasty crosswinds...but besides that it's pretty routine. LOL - quite a bit different than a wing leveler that most fighters have. So, from the initial point of the entire thread (i.e. what's so great about going to a major) the guy should realize that if he does go to a major, the difficulty of flying a larger airliner probably doesn't change one iota....and shouldn't stop him one bit if he decides to move up.

So is an F-22 challenging with all the automation? I bet it is not but only made challenging by those who fly it.

 

[Mooseflyer]

Actually, I'm not a "I can't believe they pay me to fly a jet" person. I left flying an 145 to fly a lear and king air. I couldn't care what I fly, but I take pride in it and I still fight for pay, qol, and schedule.

CM

Well good on 'ya then. There is, of course, nothing wrong with actually enjoying your job. The problem lies in the fact that so many are chasing the elusive brass ring at the expense of everthing else (pay, QOL, family, fellow pilots, etc), that the brass ring is achievable by fewer and fewer pilots every year.

 

[igneousy2]

To put it blatenly, we need less of you in this profession. It's obvious you're not in aviation for the love of flying. Maybe you should've taken that 20 secured yourself an intro to law school.

CM

Yes I should have...but I didn't.

As to needing less of ones like me...you need MORE like me.

In most other occupations there is a floor to what the salary can be as compared to other occupations because as you lower pay/benefits people STOP doing it.

It is BECAUSE of the "I would fly for free" crowd that our pay/benefits are in the toilet and the trend is going in the wrong direction.

If you stopped paying plumbers...there would be no plumbers...if you stopped paying pilots...there would still be a line of "I love to fly" types at HR's door in the morning.

And since when is $108,000 for a 12th year FO ACCEPTABLE!!! GEEZ people, a 2nd year FO at UPS MAKES $120,000. 12th years FO's made $100,000plus in 1995...in 1995 dollars.

This career is in horrible shape and with the future of our retirements in the hands of guys like "instructor dude" ....geez its scary.

And by the way...I have 3 very close friends that went to law school instead of going to flight training like I did...and they are ALL making well over $100,000 (something I have yet to do in this industry) a year and one cleared 7 figures this year.

Our standards have really gone into the toilet.

 

[Mud Eagle]

So is an F-22 challenging with all the automation? I bet it is not but only made challenging by those who fly it.

Current fighters are easy to fly.

It's the tactical employment and operation of the sensors and weapon systems that's a b*tch.

 

[spacecadet1]

What I find ironic is to see a post which makes light of a $40/hr pay diff at a major. Then read the regional board and watch people trash talk each other about 2$/hr pay differences between regionals. "You ____ guys are whores...you make $61.50/hr. We are better than you...we make $63.60/hr..blah blah blah."
This industry is really going down the crapper.

 

[jke406]

I've been riding on the Delta that is based out of ATL and to this day I find absolutely no improvement in their customer service. I do believe there is only one DAL. .and I'm 99.9% sure that's the same DAL you've been riding on.
quote]

if you've got a problem with whatever airline you're commuting on, please feel free to not fly them in the future.

as it is, they are giving you a free ride to work, FREE. and the least you can do, if not applaud them, is not badmouth them publicly.

take your dogsh!t AF attitude somewhere else. and yes, I was in the AF, and yes, I did attend the same institution you did. Tool.

 

[Capi_Cafre']

You get to say "Regional Pukes" and mean it!

All of the tangible stuff, money, schedules etc. will be better if you move on, notwithstanding the short-term hit you'll take. It's when you start weighing the other stuff like commuting that it starts to get interesting. I think that the gap between the haves & have nots will continue to grow as management continues to play the alter ego game like a fine violin, so the rationale for staying at a regional would have to be even stronger than what would have made sense ten years ago.