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Whats so great about working at a major?

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Why do so many people get these major airline "blinders" on?

Flylow is right. There are other jobs out there with far better quality of life, better compensation, and more nights at home with your family than even the majors can provide.

Don't strap on the golden handcuffs just yet. Look around.


Really good advice. I was a guy who left a sweet corp gig flying top notch equipment, great people, great QOL, and decent money for the "major airline blinders". There are so many variables that come into play in an airline that I had no idea about and had not planned for.

After 3 years at FDX, I feel like I sold me and my family out, almost like a deal with the devil.
 
The reasons to leave a good regional carrier for a major are many and most are all compelling enough to justify the move. To sum it up, though, you leave because the future upside is significantly higher than that of a regional. At 90-100K per a year, you are a hitting the ceiling of earning potential. At a major, 100K a year is the lowest pay you will receive as a first officer AFTER you've advanced deep enough into the longevity payscales (usually the 5 year point).

It's really a no-brainer. We all need to make the jump at some point. The longer you delay the inveitable pay-cut the harder it seems to overcome. But the first year goes rather quickly so it's not really that big of a deal.

Not necessarily... This is representative of what my friends make at a few of the "majors":

- 16 year American 757 FO - 89k

- 19 year Airways A320 FO - 82k

- 10 year Delta 757 FO - 85k

I think your " 100k / Five Year Theory" may be a bit flawed...


YKW
 
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Not necessarily... This is representative of what my friends make at a few of the "majors":

- 16 year American 757 FO - 89k

I think your " 100k / Five Year Theory" may be a bit flawed...

YKW

Bull. As a lineholder, you'll EASILY make $105k. (Unless he bids conflicts every month and takes the 64 hour guarantee.) Work the system (sell back two of four weeks of vacation) and you're up to $115k.

I will say that the 20 hour layovers at the Sherry DO cut into your earnings--and your lifespan! :eek: ;) TC
 
I have a bone to pick with some of the posters. I know this will offend some people, but not all people are "cut from the same cloth." There are all types of people that like different types of flying. I for one like flying the small regional jets and turboprops. It seems some people only got into this profession to fly the large jets. We don't give you a hard time because you want to be a captain on a 777 flying internationally, so don't catagorize us all as short sighted just because we enjoy what we do no matter how many zeros we lack on our W-2 and our plane is smaller or has props. Also, there are alot of people out there that are happy with the simple things in life and don't have to have a 300k house and a BMW along with every gadget ever invented. All I am saying is, don't go thinking we all want to be at a major because not all of us do. Good luck to everybody in the pursuit of what they want out of their career.

CM
 
From my very first introductory flight, private, commercial, instrument rating, CFI, CFII, MEI...it was ALL so I could get a job at a major airline. Flying is and always has been too expensive for this to be a hobby. If I thought for a minute I wouldn't have made it to a major airline I wouldn't have wasted the $20 for that first intro flight in the first place.

This argument against SWA because they require a type is STUPID. If SWA is your dream job then GO FOR IT. If it's not...then don't bother. You mean to tell me you plunked down 60-70k or more to get to the doorstep and then balk at a $6k type rating for your dream job. THAT's ABSURD.

And btw, SWA hasn't required a type before the interview for several years now...if you don't want to get the type before you show up at there "hollowed facility" you don't have to.

To put it blatenly, we need less of you in this profession. It's obvious you're not in aviation for the love of flying. Maybe you should've taken that 20 secured yourself an intro to law school.

CM
 
Bull. As a lineholder, you'll EASILY make $105k. (Unless he bids conflicts every month and takes the 64 hour guarantee.) Work the system (sell back two of four weeks of vacation) and you're up to $115k.

I will say that the 20 hour layovers at the Sherry DO cut into your earnings--and your lifespan! :eek: ;) TC

Well, we can all "work the system" , sell vacations and what not to make our w-2's look good.

However, many of us don't care to do so. ( myself included. Guarantee pay and maximum days off is just fine with me...)

Fact of the matter is, his annual guarantee is as stated above.

Point being...5 years to 100K as an FO is nowhere near correct with todays pay scales.

Is it possible? Sure as you state above, pick up as many trips as you can, sell vacations and work up to the pay cap (with minimum days off) and it will happen.

But it's the exception...not the Rule.

And yes, there are someplaces, SWA etc. , where the pay is still good enough that with a few extra trips here and there you can do 100k after 3-5 years.

So we don't need to have a case by case, airline by airline,discussion here.
 
90K is nothing compared to what it needs to be (used to be). Inflation, the weakening dollar...

I, for one, have never compared myself to 90% of this country. I won't start now. I didn't get into this biz to make what 90% of the country makes. 90% of the country hasn't done what I've done to get where I am.

The same applies to the rest of you 10%ers. ;)

Self-righteous anyone? You fly a plane. Circumstances have dictated what payscales 121 pilots are making currently for being responsible for flying people from point A to point B. But you didn't discover the cure for cancer brother, you fly planes. You're not the only one in this country sacrificing, nor the only one working, or at the very least with the perception of having worked, twice as hard to get to the same place.

90K with a semblance of QOL is nothing to scoff at. Now, is it true that today's economy forces the middle class to be two-income households by default and therefore a single person earning 90K isn't what it used to be? Absolutely. But everybody has a bloated perception of the value of one's work when compared to other careers.

I used to see this coming out of college with an engineering degree. People b%tching and whining about how they should start at X salary and they deserve more, ad naseaum. Guess what, nobody cares you fly a plane, like nobody cared I had additional education when I decided to pursue flying professionally. Just like nobody cares you feel your chosen profession should be compensated more compared to "90% of the country".

The key to keeping perspective is to make comparisons in terms of opportunity cost, rather than let your entitlement complex get out of control. You wanna make 200K+ in a "timely" fashion and feel flying a plane, current QOL and other externalities considered, is not getting you there? Hedge your bets and make the appropriate career changes and see what happens. But pounding your chest and screaming "I deserve more, I am worth more than 90% of earners because I have sacrificed soooo much" does nothing to reinforce your argument that pilots should be compensated more (which for the level of responsibility at the regional level I believe they should).

Just some perspective is all.
 
What's so great about working at a major?
Lot's of things.
1. Respect. People respect you more. Management no longer looks at you like a "rookie" and will not try to take silly advantage of you. Gate agents will respect you more, even if you are just jumpseating. They realize that you have been around the block and treat you will respect. Other airline pilots, knowing that you are working for a major, will not act childish towards you. After you are off of probation, your peers will welcome you with open arms. Flight attendants will be at your command and will give you their undevided attention when you address them. What you say, goes without question. Passengers think you are something of a deity.

2. Pay. Once you get past your first year, wait'll you get of a load of your pay. Even as an f/o, you'll probably make wads and wads of cash. Be careful, you may hurt yourself tripping over bundles of fifty dollar bills around your house.

3. Job Security. Most of the legacy carriers have been around for ever. They ain't going anywhere and neither will you. And with a strong union on property, you will most likely have a "no furlough" clause in your contract. Sweet. Go ahead and upgrade to the larger house once you are on board. What's the worst that could happen?

4. Work rules. The work rules at the majors are far superior to any others in the industry. You'll seldom be tired, except after stuffing yourself on a transcon with the first class meal that most companies provide their flight crews. You'll have so much time off, your wife may think you are a part-time employee.

5. Camaraderie. You'll be one of the "family" now. No more back-stabbing, ladder climbing, I'd-hit-you-you-over-your-head-with-a-snow-shovel-if-I-thought-it-would-improve-my-quality-of-life kind of stuff going on at the majors. I guess that probably comes about because most pilots at the majors are more mature.

6. Retirement. If you are fortunate enough to get on with a major, you really are set for life. When you retire, the money just keeps on a-flowin'. With the top notch pensions, along with your 401k and social security, the only problem you'll have is what the hel to do with all of that cash. By that time, you and your wife of 40 years will have the house/houses paid off. There won't be any big-ticket items to pay for any more. It'll almost be a full time job just counting your money. Kind of like in "Scarface" when they would set up those rooms with the electronic bill counters, and would take the cash to the bank in big bags.

I could go on, but, unfortunately I just received another paycheck, so I have to do some online shopping.
 
Not necessarily... This is representative of what my friends make at a few of the "majors":

- 16 year American 757 FO - 89k

- 19 year Airways A320 FO - 82k

- 10 year Delta 757 FO - 85k

I think your " 100k / Five Year Theory" may be a bit flawed...


YKW

One of the following must be at play here regarding your Delta friend:

1. He lied to you.
2. He gives away alot of his trips.
3. Your lying to us.
4. You or him have fuzzy math.

Even at a conservative calculation at your friends current pay rate (aprox $106/hr) at 85 hours a months (which is average) he is making $109,140.00 This is not including a 5% bonus ($5,450.00), eleven percent (does not require matching) going into his funded account $11,990.00. nor the fact he is still getting yearly increases (ie Dec 09 he will be at $110/hr on the basic scale). This also does not include $1.85/hr per diem or roughly between $150.00 and $200.00 for a regular trip or put another way, roughly $8500.00 more per year. Please tell me how his real total income of $135,238.00 becomes $85K?

One last note, if he were to fly any inverse assignments his hourly pay for that assignment would be $212.00 per hour or $159/hr for a "green slip".

PS- If you want to justify your staying at a regional for some reason dont try the "it will take me ten years to make what I am making now or the pay sucks at the majors" arguement. The pay does suck at the majors compared to where it was in year 2000 but the earning income at a major still kills that of a regional, short and long term. The Majors will get some pay raises in the next three years (10% to 20%). These new pay rates will only further widen the gap of regional and major once again. Dont expect the solidarity from hundreds of new regional kids with SJS to make any ground at the regionals.
 
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Self-righteous anyone? You fly a plane. Circumstances have dictated what payscales 121 pilots are making currently for being responsible for flying people from point A to point B. But you didn't discover the cure for cancer brother, you fly planes. You're not the only one in this country sacrificing, nor the only one working, or at the very least with the perception of having worked, twice as hard to get to the same place.

90K with a semblance of QOL is nothing to scoff at. Now, is it true that today's economy forces the middle class to be two-income households by default and therefore a single person earning 90K isn't what it used to be? Absolutely. But everybody has a bloated perception of the value of one's work when compared to other careers.

I used to see this coming out of college with an engineering degree. People b%tching and whining about how they should start at X salary and they deserve more, ad naseaum. Guess what, nobody cares you fly a plane, like nobody cared I had additional education when I decided to pursue flying professionally. Just like nobody cares you feel your chosen profession should be compensated more compared to "90% of the country".

The key to keeping perspective is to make comparisons in terms of opportunity cost, rather than let your entitlement complex get out of control. You wanna make 200K+ in a "timely" fashion and feel flying a plane, current QOL and other externalities considered, is not getting you there? Hedge your bets and make the appropriate career changes and see what happens. But pounding your chest and screaming "I deserve more, I am worth more than 90% of earners because I have sacrificed soooo much" does nothing to reinforce your argument that pilots should be compensated more (which for the level of responsibility at the regional level I believe they should).

Just some perspective is all.

What's your point? 2nd career or not- what are you arguing for? Status quo? More pay cuts?

Lesson #1 for your perspective-- airline pilot's don't get a true "market" wage. He's beating his chest b/c of what you already pointed out-- Nobody OUTSIDE of flying CARES or UNDERSTANDS about the true nature of the issues facing an airline pilot. If we negotiate $30k or $300k they don't give a damn- They worry about their lives... What everyone on this board is concerned about are PILOTS who think they aren't worth what we get paid-even w/ 55% paycuts. That pisses me off b/c we collectively bargain- your lack of pride and value for what you do brings down MY wages. It also is disrespectful to your career and the responsibility you have as an aviator. I'm not saving the world as you point out=-= but there are more than a few times every year where if I'm not VERY good at what i do-- a lot of people die, a lot of $capital is lost, and a lot of economic good will is lost as well. That's not dramatic- just reality-and if you don't get that THAT responsibility is valuable- you NEED PERSPECTIVE. I get tired of pilots who aren't as good as me-don't respect aviation as much as me, and thus-don't work as hard as me- tell me that i'm not worth what i know i am. Not everyone can do what I do. That has been proven to me many times over. If you think everyone CAN- maybe you're not doing this job the right way.

My point wouldn't contradict yours- Airlines do not govern my HAPPINESS- and I don't bitch-- i love my job every day-- THEN get involved and vote the right way.
 
What's so great about working at a major?
Lot's of things.
1. Respect. People respect you more. Management no longer looks at you like a "rookie" and will not try to take silly advantage of you. Gate agents will respect you more, even if you are just jumpseating. They realize that you have been around the block and treat you will respect. Other airline pilots, knowing that you are working for a major, will not act childish towards you. After you are off of probation, your peers will welcome you with open arms. Flight attendants will be at your command and will give you their undevided attention when you address them. What you say, goes without question. Passengers think you are something of a deity.

2. Pay. Once you get past your first year, wait'll you get of a load of your pay. Even as an f/o, you'll probably make wads and wads of cash. Be careful, you may hurt yourself tripping over bundles of fifty dollar bills around your house.

3. Job Security. Most of the legacy carriers have been around for ever. They ain't going anywhere and neither will you. And with a strong union on property, you will most likely have a "no furlough" clause in your contract. Sweet. Go ahead and upgrade to the larger house once you are on board. What's the worst that could happen?

4. Work rules. The work rules at the majors are far superior to any others in the industry. You'll seldom be tired, except after stuffing yourself on a transcon with the first class meal that most companies provide their flight crews. You'll have so much time off, your wife may think you are a part-time employee.

5. Camaraderie. You'll be one of the "family" now. No more back-stabbing, ladder climbing, I'd-hit-you-you-over-your-head-with-a-snow-shovel-if-I-thought-it-would-improve-my-quality-of-life kind of stuff going on at the majors. I guess that probably comes about because most pilots at the majors are more mature.

6. Retirement. If you are fortunate enough to get on with a major, you really are set for life. When you retire, the money just keeps on a-flowin'. With the top notch pensions, along with your 401k and social security, the only problem you'll have is what the hel to do with all of that cash. By that time, you and your wife of 40 years will have the house/houses paid off. There won't be any big-ticket items to pay for any more. It'll almost be a full time job just counting your money. Kind of like in "Scarface" when they would set up those rooms with the electronic bill counters, and would take the cash to the bank in big bags.

I could go on, but, unfortunately I just received another paycheck, so I have to do some online shopping.


Wow. Puff then pass dude. Not puff, puff, pass.
 
You pose an interesting thread, because there is not a clear cut answer.

First, do not buy into “majors” versus “regionals” labels. It is not accurate. An E170, or CRJ with Delta passengers sitting in “First Class” is not a “regional” operation. It is outsourced brand flying and in as much as management desires a "seamless passenger experience," it is operationally integrated flying. The difference only exists in the notions, dare I say bigotry, of us pilots who categorize ourselves. Pilots operating DC-9 and 737 sized RJ’s may be less qualified than those who flew 737’s and DC-9’s in the past, but we as a profession are responsible for allowing these standards to be lowered. We need only look at the medical profession to learn how a loosely organized group can maintain higher entry requirements to increase demand for qualified professionals.

Quick – where were the pants you are wearing now produced? Asia, Mexico, the United States? Don’t know and don’t care is the same answer most of our passengers would give us. Our union(s) have failed to control outsourcing, or even rationalize, career progression. As those in power move up to larger equipment they seem satisfied to outsource everything below that level.

Second, from a monetary perspective there is little reason to go any where but Southwest, UPS and FedEx. For someone with 25 years remaining the numbers work out roughly as follows:
ASA (old contract) $2,541,000
CAL (current) $3,966,000
AirTran $3,619,000
FedEx $5,769,750
But, by using ASA’s new contract, correcting for the future value of present day dollars, and the 8 to 10 years you are in the hole – a compelling financial argument could be made for remaining at the small jet contractor airline. If you are an instructor, line check airman, or manager at a small jet contractor you might never break even at a legacy carrier. The LCA that performed my IOE in the CRJ200 earned more than the LCA that performed the same duties in an aircraft with three times the capacity.

Delta is one of the best paying legacy carriers. Using their contract pay rates, a pilot beginning there today could expect the following earnings in their first four years*:
MD88 $239,374.80
737-700 $237,728.40
737-800 $259,560.00
767/757 $266,910.00

Under ASA’s old contract my earnings would have been $252,000.00 on the 200 and $285,300.00 on the 700.

*This does not include B fund (which is around 5% better at DL) or credits (which favor the small jet contractor).

Third, most legacy carriers do not fly equipment as advanced as an RJ. Yes there are 777's and 767-400's but most pilots are on the older jets. The RJ is a very easy airplane to train and fly. The MD88, or 737, not so much. For pure flying fun – control harmony, responsiveness and technology, the little jets are hard to beat.

This brings us to the question – why change?

First, you will eventually make more money at a branded airline. Most of the current branded contracts were negotiated at the bankruptcy court with an NLRB that has been hostile to labor. Everyone expects the pay deficit at the branded carriers to be fixed, somewhat. Full restoration, plus inflation, is highly unlikely. But the branded carriers will get better because they hav more negotiating power - they can not be replaced without their agreement.

Second, the benefits and conditions at most of the branded airlines are better. There is a value to working around better trained professionals with a better attitude. This varies from one carrier to another, but generally the branded carriers are better and the military influence helps.

Third, job security. The non-branded carriers have none. They can be replaced, shuffled, displaced – most without a union and even the represented members have not been successful in establishing job protections within the brand that protect them during periods of fleet renewal and adjustment. Continental will always have Continental pilots. Will Continental always have ExpressJet pilots, who knows?

Fourth, seeing the World. For some getting in a widebody and flying the back side of the clock is fun – some see it as flying from one good meal / party to the next. Others of us would rather fly multiple legs, enjoying the friendly competition with the crew to see who can fly more efficiently and smoothly. Branded carriers offer more variety.

My decision was based on job security. Unrestrained outsourcing of flying to the non brand jet providers has allowed dog eat dog competition between union and non union, senior and non-senior carriers. Outfits like SkyWest can shift airplanes purposely to destroy longevity. Since all of our careers are dictated by our seniority numbers, I wanted to have a number on the brand that I’m flying. On a more personal level, I like to work for an employer where I can take pride in the product; an employer who shares a mutual interest in the success of the effort. This just does not exist as a pilot performing outsourced flying at a subsidiary of a contracted holding company.

Those who chose not to apply, interview, get hired and start from the bottom trying to figure out basic checkride manuevers from four separate volumes have also made a rational choice.
 
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Sedona,

- I don't work for a Regional. Thank You. Furthermore, I would agree...get the he#l out of the regionals ASAP for Major pay and benefits.

That said...My buddy at Deltas Base Pay is as stated.

Period.

We can all work OT, etc. and I understand that the Line Values average above Guarantee.

And Total Compensation is different than Base Salary. I agree, his W-2 was probably closer to your figures.

The discussion is about the fallacy of Major Airline FO's making 100K after 5 years.

NOT.

YKW

P.S.- Now that we've heard from the Delta and American factions...Let's hear from an Airways Pilot telling us he made 125K last year. I am sure some of them did. WHO CARES? Geez, get a clue Folks as to what the discussion is about as opposed to defending your Egos.
 
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12 yr 757 FO at AA makes about $116/hr (not even including 767 pay or international override). With the 73 hr reserve guarantee, that works out to $101K/yr. If you flew 78 hrs, which is not untypical for a lineholder you would get aroung $109K. That doesn't even include pension contributions. I don't know where you're coming up with $89K/yr?
 
Sedona,

That said...My buddy at Deltas Base Pay is as stated.

Period.

We can all work OT, etc. and I understand that the Line Values average above Guarantee.

And Total Compensation is different than Base Salary. I agree, his W-2 was probably closer to your figures.

Delta does not have a min guarantee for line holders, only for reserves. Therefore, there is no such thing as "base pay".

If your buddy is flying a normal line without dropping or picking up anything he would average around 80 hours.

10 year 767 FO: $106
80 hours X $106 X 12 months = $101,760

Its not fantastic but it is also not 85k. In order for that to be the case he would have to average only 66 hours a month.
 
Delta is one of the best paying legacy carriers. Using their contract pay rates, a pilot beginning there today could expect the following earnings in their first four years*:
MD88 $239,374.80
737-700 $237,728.40
737-800 $259,560.00
767/757 $266,910.00


Third, most legacy carriers do not fly equipment as advanced as an RJ. Yes there are 777's and 767-400's but most pilots are on the older jets. The RJ is a very easy airplane to train and fly. The MD88, or 737, not so much. For pure flying fun – control harmony, responsiveness and technology, the little jets are hard to beat.

Delta is nothing to write home about. As a matter of fact, Delta's customer service, cleanliness, and QOL are the pits. Everytime I travel with Delta (which unfortunately I have to quite a bit with the military) I'm sickened with how they treat their employees and more importantly, their customers. I also know 3 senior DAL pilots very well and all of them have nothing good to say about this airline. From their $5 snack packs to their disgustingly dirty airplanes, it certainly shows. Before you start crapping on CAL, realize I never bragged about them either. The PBS issue is also terrible. But I will say their customer service is head and shoulders above DAL.

Secondly, the 737 is NOT hard to fly. At CAL we have the 737-300, -500, -700, -800, & -900. None of the 5 are difficult to fly...on the contrary they are extremely easy to fly. The only thing that is moderately challenging in any of these aircraft are gusty, crosswind conditions. I don't have a clue about the MD-88, but I do know a few other military peers that fly the 757 and 767. Again...extremely easy to fly. In all honesty, 99% of the time flying any of these fatties is brain dead work. And I can assure you there are quite a few more airplanes that are 10 fold more fun to fly than a friggin RJ (much less travel as a customer in those tuna cans).

What's the beauty of the airlines? In a nutshell, the airlines provide a few basic needs that no other desk job can. One, once you get some descent seniority you can get 15-17 days off a month. You certainly can't do that at IBM and it works well with a military career (hence why so many fighter & heavy military folks in the ANG also fly for major airlines). Two, you get relatively good compensation for relatively easy work. Three, you get travel benefits that are nice for yourself and your family.

As far as the flying, I don't think anyone worth their salt is going to say it's an adrenaline rush. If I can have fun on a 4 day with a good crew and get through the USA Today or ESPN Magazine I'd say it's a successful flight. If you want adventure in flying...there are many more pointy type jets that will fulfill that role that certainly no airliner at M 0.78 is going to provide.
 

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