What the Skywest OC won't tell you

[Nevets]

Quote-Why would they fear retribution considering Skywest lost their federal court case allowing pilots to wear ALPA insignia? There is a good reason why they feel that way.
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The court ordered them to re-instate DD and they haven't deemed it necessary to comply with that ruling either. I won't wear the lanyard for that reason. Nov 6 is coming fast and I too, think it's gonna be close. FWIW OC guys have told me the same thing. I'm a SKW lifer and I'm prepared to live with either outcome.

I can certainly see your point. Which is more of a reason why everyone should vote for ALPA.

 

[Nevets]

Now you are getting me wrong as well. It is not ALPA that made them unhappy, it was the impact ALPA had. You need to do some research. I don't like the bad that comes with the little good that ALPA may bring. I know at Eagle, this is how management works. Every group had their own union. One group would get a in increase in their contract but only at the expense of another. The others would get pissed and moral would go down. Why do I want that here? Why would we want management playing the work groups against each other? Don't even think you can tell me SKYW does that. Moral is better here because there is no union influence. So I will again clear it up. I don't think ALPA is bad. I think a union is bad. I think the influence a union has is bad. Why do I want to be like almost everyone else? You might mention Fedex and the such. Right...first you can't mention Fedex or UPS, different category of industries. Apples and oranges my friend. Netjets is different and XJT, well... we will see (my hat is off to you all at XJT, good job), but their contract came at a different time with a different lead carrier. Now they too had to go to Delta for flying and are flying on their own. If the industry continues its path on this race to the bottom, they too may make concessions. I hope they don't but if you know how to balance a checkbook, then you can see things won't add up forever. Everyone says, ALPA will stop this downward spiral. Right, this spiral has occurred despite ALPA. ALPA and every union has been along for the ride and their supporters cry "Witch!" anytime someone else tries something different. Sorry, but watching this UAW thing unwind and destroy an American legacy is not helping your cause.

Skywest management doesn't have to play one group against the other because there is no union. It just does it to all of you equally. That is the impact from NOT having ALPA.

How can you say unions are bad but not want to acknowledge that unionized pilots at FDX, UPS, NetJets, Horizon, and Expressjet don't count? They are unionized. What's the difference? Oh but wait, the UAW is not apples to oranges, right? Listen to yourself. You have a preconceived idea of what a union is. They are all different, even among airlines. Just because you have a union does NOT mean morale will be low. Look at XJT. We have every reason to have low morale but yet we don't. By the way, we got a contract extension with 5.75%-6% pay raises, improved work rules, competitive pay to NetJets for the charter operation all AFTER CAL released the 69 aircraft. Couldn't have done that without ALPA!

As for balancing check books, have you seen Skywest's balance sheet? But yet they can only afford to give you a 1% or 0% pay raise in the last seven years that is good for another four years. And at the same time, pit one group of pilots against another. Talk about a morale booster.

The downward spiral was precipitated by 9/11 and bankruptcy laws. Do you think it would have been better for pilots if none of them were unionized? Yes, ALPA has been along for the ride and they have worked to make that ride as smooth as possible. Without ALPA, pilots would have lost a lot more during these last six years. And only with ALPA will they have a chance to regain some of that. Obviously that has not been the case for Skywest pilots.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Freedom makes a huge requirement of every human being. With freedom comes responsibility. For the person who is unwilling to grow up, the person who does not want to carry is own weight, this is a frightening prospect.
Eleanor Roosevelt

 

[Soverytired]

Freedom makes a huge requirement of every human being. With freedom comes responsibility. For the person who is unwilling to grow up, the person who does not want to carry is own weight, this is a frightening prospect.
Eleanor Roosevelt

One could argue that pilots should be negotiating their own wages, a.k.a. certain corporate gigs. This is far, far, FAR more like what true "white collar" workers do when selling their precious skills to they highest bidder.

The act of joining a union de facto surrenders your ability to do so.

Pro-union or non-union at SKYW, I don't care. But to imply that by joining a union and adding extremely restrictive rules on both parties (labor and management) equals MORE freedom is ridiculous.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

One could argue that pilots should be negotiating their own wages, a.k.a. certain corporate gigs. This is far, far, FAR more like what true "white collar" workers do when selling their precious skills to they highest bidder.

The act of joining a union de facto surrenders your ability to do so.

Pro-union or non-union at SKYW, I don't care. But to imply that by joining a union and adding extremely restrictive rules on both parties (labor and management) equals MORE freedom is ridiculous.

Oh yeah, much more ridiculous than the idea of each one of the 2,800+ pilots at Skyw going in and negotiating their own wages with JA...are you high?

 

[1x1]

You hit the nail on the head. Thats why they continue to buy lunch everyday at the hubs.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

One could argue that pilots should be negotiating their own wages, a.k.a. certain corporate gigs. This is far, far, FAR more like what true "white collar" workers do when selling their precious skills to they highest bidder.

The act of joining a union de facto surrenders your ability to do so.

Pro-union or non-union at SKYW, I don't care. But to imply that by joining a union and adding extremely restrictive rules on both parties (labor and management) equals MORE freedom is ridiculous.

Why not as an individual member of the USA go deal with the Iraq, Iran and S. Korea problem...

How effective do you think you will be...???

Now go and try and defend the air line pilot profession...how effective do you think you'll be?

 

[Soverytired]

Oh yeah, much more ridiculous than the idea of each one of the 2,800+ pilots at Skyw going in and negotiating their own wages with JA...are you high?

Yeah, I guess you're right.

Too much Ayn Rand, I guess.

 

[Soverytired]

Why not as an individual member of the USA go deal with the Iraq, Iran and S. Korea problem...

How effective do you think you will be...???

Now go and try and defend the air line pilot profession...how effective do you think you'll be?

R.O.L. . . you can do better than that; I know you can.

I suppose the easiest counter is that the US Military is 100% voluntary.

Once 51% of pilots at a carrier vote in ALPA, the other 49% are forced to join (or they can quit, hardly practical). "Drafted", if you will. Hardly popular, whether in the military or in the labor force. Everyone will be subject to another huge layer of regulation and bureaucracy, which is not exactly freedom.

I'm a big believer in majority rule though. A group wants to shoot itself in the foot and go ALPA, more power to them.

Just don't call that more "freedom".

 

[waveflyer]

Ayn Rand is fantastic- but she has her assumptions. And they begin and end with the seniority system. (At skywest- if you're better and more experienced all around than someone senior to you= do you get to be captain?)

This isn't a blue capitalist vs red socialist debate here. You already collectively bargain-you already have a seniority system. The only question is what is the appropriate way to do that.

When I was there- SAPA proved to be more corrupt than any union I'd been a part of, and largely ineffective. Management has had their choices...

It took time for me to believe that a union was right and necessary at SkyWest. I only hope that if you fail to vote in a union, you don't have experiences that have you regret that. But my 5 years there tells me that you probably will. Myself included, I can't count how many 1 year FO's were against ALPA who became 3-4 year captains who were for it. If you're still in your first few years there- that statistic shouldn't be lost on you.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Ayn Rand is fantastic- but she has her assumptions. And they begin and end with the seniority system. (At skywest- if you're better and more experienced all around than someone senior to you= do you get to be captain?)

This isn't a blue capitalist vs red socialist debate here. You already collectively bargain-you already have a seniority system. The only question is what is the appropriate way to do that.

When I was there- SAPA proved to be more corrupt than any union I'd been a part of, and largely ineffective. Management has had their choices...

It took time for me to believe that a union was right and necessary at SkyWest. I only hope that if you fail to vote in a union, you don't have experiences that have you regret that. But my 5 years there tells me that you probably will. Myself included, I can't count how many 1 year FO's were against ALPA who became 3-4 year captains who were for it. If you're still in your first few years there- that statistic shouldn't be lost on you.

Exactly, I've lost count of the numerous guys that tell me "now we get it", after having been here as captains for 3 or 4 years...they initially bought into the hard sell from JA, SAPA, etc. but have realized and seen first hand how all the empty promises and "open" communication vanish after the drive fails!

 

[Skywest Pylot]

When I was there- SAPA proved to be more corrupt than any union I'd been a part of, and largely ineffective. Management has had their choices...

I've come to the same conclusion.

It took time for me to believe that a union was right and necessary at SkyWest. I only hope that if you fail to vote in a union, you don't have experiences that have you regret that. But my 5 years there tells me that you probably will. Myself included, I can't count how many 1 year FO's were against ALPA who became 3-4 year captains who were for it. If you're still in your first few years there- that statistic shouldn't be lost on you.

By the time they figure out they need a union, it is too late because there are 100s of newbies ready and willing to vote away their right to legal representation. Soon they will learn.

 

[Flip]

I've come to the same conclusion.

By the time they figure out they need a union, it is too late because there are 100s of newbies ready and willing to vote away their right to legal representation. Soon they will learn.

Yep. It will be a rude awakening when, come January, the EMB starts going away fast, a few of the smaller bases close, upgrades slow to cover attrition only, Delta takes back some of the flying and suddenly upgrade heads back to about 4 years. FOs dealing with PBS, low pay and bad pairings for 4 years. Too late though.

 

[waveflyer]

Right- and the flipside to that argument is that many pilots who get to that point- then also get real motivated to move on -equaling another vote lost. Which is great for me- but i still have a LOT of friends there who have no desire to leave, or b/c so much domestic flying has been relegated to us- won't be able to.

A lot has been written on this thread about happiness = union or not union. Most of those arguments come down to whether or not you believe a union has hampered growth opportunities for your airline- I tend to believe management's ability to run an airline has much more to do with the opportunities we get than the pilot contract. I want to earn my check- but frankly- i did @ skywest- and more. Not one quarter with less than $30million profit in 5 years!- and they can't keep pay up with inflation?

The only thing i don't understand is how there is a debate left?

Management had their chance to follow through on their promises with SAPA as the "representative". They chose not to. That's not your fault. You are more than justified in stepping up your negotiating power.

Inflation since 2002 is 19%. That's the raise you'll need to stay even w/ 50 seat pay in 2002- EVEN THOUGH SKYWEST HAS ALMOST TRIPLED IN SIZE FLYING AIRPLANES w/52% more capacity. You have value now- it's up to you to turn it into something and stop the suppression from SAPA.

 

[Nevets]

R.O.L. . . you can do better than that; I know you can.

I suppose the easiest counter is that the US Military is 100% voluntary.

Once 51% of pilots at a carrier vote in ALPA, the other 49% are forced to join (or they can quit, hardly practical). "Drafted", if you will. Hardly popular, whether in the military or in the labor force. Everyone will be subject to another huge layer of regulation and bureaucracy, which is not exactly freedom.

I'm a big believer in majority rule though. A group wants to shoot itself in the foot and go ALPA, more power to them.

Just don't call that more "freedom".

If the vote passses, you do NOT have to join.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

R.O.L. . . you can do better than that; I know you can.

Here it comes...

I suppose the easiest counter is that the US Military is 100% voluntary.

At least initially...

Once 51% of pilots at a carrier vote in ALPA, the other 49% are forced to join (or they can quit, hardly practical). "Drafted", if you will. Hardly popular, whether in the military or in the labor force. Everyone will be subject to another huge layer of regulation and bureaucracy, which is not exactly freedom.

ALPA is regulation and bureaucracy? Maybe... but unlike the MIL and Slywest management... it is democracy... the 49% still have a voice... and if effective can use the same 50% + 1 tactic that got them into the this "union" mess to get them out... regardless...they are going to have to become involved...

Now..if you are advocating that sheep or sheepeople have the right to just graze the sod and be left alone then that opens a huge door to debate... Are pilots sheepeople would be my first question... Well? Are they?

I'm a big believer in majority rule though. A group wants to shoot itself in the foot and go ALPA, more power to them.

You are a big believer in maj. rule untill you are the minority....

Yeah...democracy sucks doesn't it... you like corporate dictatorships don't you?

Just don't call that more "freedom".

What would you call free will, elections and representation?

 

[John Pennekamp]

The campaign started with a goal of getting 70% of the pilots to sign authorization cards.

The petition was filed with cards signed by less than 50% of the pilots.

What are the chances ALPA is going to be voted in?

I think apples are tasty. I don't care for bananas. Based on this, what are the chances I like peaches? What does this say about the chances of me planting an avocado tree in my yard? Sheesh!

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Right- and the flipside to that argument is that many pilots who get to that point- then also get real motivated to move on -equaling another vote lost. Which is great for me- but i still have a LOT of friends there who have no desire to leave, or b/c so much domestic flying has been relegated to us- won't be able to.

A lot has been written on this thread about happiness = union or not union. Most of those arguments come down to whether or not you believe a union has hampered growth opportunities for your airline- I tend to believe management's ability to run an airline has much more to do with the opportunities we get than the pilot contract. I want to earn my check- but frankly- i did @ skywest- and more. Not one quarter with less than $30million profit in 5 years!- and they can't keep pay up with inflation?

The only thing i don't understand is how there is a debate left?

Management had their chance to follow through on their promises with SAPA as the "representative". They chose not to. That's not your fault. You are more than justified in stepping up your negotiating power.

Inflation since 2002 is 19%. That's the raise you'll need to stay even w/ 50 seat pay in 2002- EVEN THOUGH SKYWEST HAS ALMOST TRIPLED IN SIZE FLYING AIRPLANES w/52% more capacity. You have value now- it's up to you to turn it into something and stop the suppression from SAPA.

The last COLA we got was in 2000, so I think break even is closer to 25%, and then at least another 14% for the 4 years they alloted us either 0 or 1%...since current real inflation(not core)is estimated to be running at about 3.5% per year!