What made Eastern GO Under?

[FlyDeltasJets]

Re: FlyDeltasJets & Typhoon

Thanks for your comments. They are appreciated.

Your fathers and I thought we were doing the right thing. Based upon hindsight and our painful education into human nature and greed, we might choose to fight the battle a different way if we had to do it over again.

Perhaps. Or perhaps you took your best shot, knowing that if you let lorenzo come after you one union at a time, you wouldn't have had a chance. I don't know the answer, because in this case, hindsight is not 20/20. Who knows what might have resulted had the fight been fought differently. You folks did what you thought was right at the time, and that took courage.

We applaud you for it.

P.S.
Where were you based? Send me a PM if you would prefer.

 

[Typhoon1244]

...I must admit you are a bit more forgiving than I. After seeing what those poor men endured, I can never forgive the perpetrators (scabs, borman, and lorenzo), despite any dubious expressions of remorse. Respect? Out of the question.

Maybe "respect" was an overstatement.

Allow me to clarify. I found Turbo's post of 09-09-2002 10:05 (top of page 5 of this thread) very, very sad. It reminded me of LTCDR Queeg's soliloquy at the end of the court martial in The Caine Mutiny. It was obvious that being forced into admitting his actions during the Eastern strike drove Turbo over the edge. (By the way, did you notice how long it took him to finally admit what he is? If he's so proud of it, why all the evasion?)

Originally posted by TurboS7:
I know I took the legit seat of some other guy for a time, whoever that person is I owe them a lot and I thank them for sharing a part of aviation that was really neat.

Thanking the guy whose job he stole? (That's like a murderer/rapist apologizing to a victim's family, then saying "but if it makes you feel any better, she was a really good f_ck.") And then later, comparing himself to Christ?

Turbo's guilt over what he's done is causing him to unravel somewhat, and I can't bring myself to kick a man when he's down. He knows what he did, and I'm not going to insult him anymore. Let him disintegrate quietly.

As for Publisher, he--like all of us--is a product of his background. He represents heartless corporate management. It shouldn't surprise us that he would take up Lorenzo's point of view since they are on the same level (although I'm sure no federal judge has declared Publisher incompetent). As a former New Orleans D.A. once said, "what do you expect from a pig but a grunt?"

 

[publisher]

I love you guys

There is not one thing that I have posted here that says I like or admire or anything about Lorenzo.

There is not one thing that I have posted here that says I have a policy position on people crossing a picket line in a labor dispute.

A couple of what I am sure you would call minor points.

My position is that this particular situation was so misjudged by parties to it, that whatever rules applied to crossing the line did not apply here in this situation.

Airlines habitually had a very high hidden reserve. Hidden reserve is the difference between book value of an asset and it's current market value. When airlines owned substantially all their fleets, that was like the bank. When slow times came, they would sell off aircraft, capture the hidden reserve as needed. Paid for assets could be used for critical cash during these times.

Eastern had been cashing in that reserve for sometime. That and a perceived militant labor group were two of the reasons that Eastern was not that attractive except to the sharks like Lorenzo and Uberoff. Hidden reserve is why American is the strongest airline in the world today.

Take that and some of the other points made earlier by others and you have the fatal wound.

What I cannot understand is how you take my observation and say that this is my position. I had no position in this matter at all. Frankly, could not care less about it. What I did do is observe and hear a good deal of this. I do not represent a position on this at all. I certainly did not support Lorenzo at all in this or management feelings. Frank was a, well add in your own expletive.

Let me explain something about bankruptcy and trustee's. They are bigger sharks than Frank. For those of you who doubt that, take a look at what Marty took out of there personally later.

A bankruptcy trustee is usually in this for what is in it for the trustee. They get paid a percentage of the transactions. They have no mission to save the company. When there is no cash to be had, they usually walk away.

For the last time, my feeling on the subject is that Eastern was doomed, was raped and pillaged by Lorenzo and others, and was liquidated because no one really came to save the day and all the parties did a terrible job of understanding what they were watching.

I said at the time that it was dead. I thought Frank was here for the spoils and left overs. I predicted that Charles Bryan was taking a position of optimistic suicide.

What I thought would happen did in fact happen.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: I love you guys

...Eastern was doomed...

Publisher, read carefully: the facts and figures (Eastern's and the feds', not ALPA's...see previous posts) do not support this conclusion. Eastern as we knew it would probably not be here today (i.e. merger, reorganization, etc.), but everybody probably would have kept their job.

Why are you clinging to this false assertion?

 

[flight-crew]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by TurboS7:
I know I took the legit seat of some other guy for a time, whoever that person is I owe them a lot and I thank them for sharing a part of aviation that was really neat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Typhoon1244:
Thanking the guy whose job he stole? (That's like a murderer/rapist apologizing to a victim's family, then saying "but if it makes you feel any better, she was a really good f_ck.") And then later, comparing himself to Christ?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Typhoon1244, I couldn't have said it better myself. Very nicely put.

 

[publisher]

Typhoon

Look if it makes you feel better, you are absolutely right.

It could have been, should have been, might have been, but, it was not.

If you believe that stuff and those figures, great. What you do not seem to understand is how the game is really played.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Typhoon

Originally posted by publisher
If you believe that stuff and those figures, great. What you do not seem to understand is how the game is really played.

You're probably right. Eastern, its shareholders, a federal court, and ALPA all agree that Eastern probably would have muddled through the early Nineties had it not been for Lorenzo's mismanagement and hostility to labor. You say they're all full of it.

I don't understand how "the game" is played? Is that the best evidence you can come up with to support your argument? Well thanks. That makes a whole lot of sense. I love your arguments, Publisher. When you can't prove your point, you fall back on smug remarks like "...you do not seem to understand..." like it's some secret that only you and other managers are privy to.

Look at the last Northwest strike. Not one scab, not a single one. It sure looked to me like they understood "the game." (I heard once that N.W.A. used to be called "Cobra Airlines." "We'll strike at anything.")

After all the mud and dust settle, the fact remains that ultimately, one man destroyed Eastern Air Lines...and since he's been banned from ever running an airline in this country again, there's one less corporate raider we need to worry about.

 

[FD109]

I can't believe it!!!

Publisher,

I actually agree with something you said:

You said, "Let me explain something about bankruptcy and trustee's. They are bigger sharks than Frank. For those of you who doubt that, take a look at what Marty took out of there personally later." I agree with you, but on this issue only.

In other parts of your post, you continue to argue that EAL was doomed, but you won't, or can't, back up your opinion with data or even one single specific. You cite only vague, nebulous generalities. Finally you fall back on the device of trying to discredit your opponents by saying that they "don't understand how the game is played."

Your statements begin to sound more and more like the excuses SCABS use to excuse their treachery. Come clean with us Publisher, do you defend the SCABS so vociferously due to pure philosophical passion, or is it something much more personal?

 

[enigma]

Re: I can't believe it!!!

Publisher,

In other parts of your post, you continue to argue that EAL was doomed, but you won't, or can't, back up your opinion with data or even one single specific.

FD109

Here's my two cents. The Publisher thinks that EAL was doomed because the EAL laborers were unionized.

regards,
8N

 

[FD109]

enigma,

You're probably right about that. Kinda makes you wonder how Southwest has survived with all those unionized workers they have. Competent management perhaps?

Have you noticed how incompetent managements love to blame their lack of expertise on unionized employees?

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Competent Managers

This is going to be a little bit of thread creep...
FD109 or Enigma, you bring up an interesting point about management. My question is, in your careers, have you seen management people who you thought were good? I mean people who were good at their jobs and/or actually enjoyed their jobs.
FD109, despite EAL's problems, were there any managers around that you thought "if these folks were running the company this would be a better place"?
Without putting you on the spot Enigma, what is it like at Spirit?
I guess my take is you get people in jobs that are just looking for a job whether it be management or hourly. I think because they're in a job that they really don't like it becomes laborious for them. I'm not trying to defend this behavior but I think it is a reality. There aren't a lot of jobs out there that are enjoyable.
My gut feel is most successful management people are ones who want to do a good job and care about their work. The ones who hate their jobs will pass along to others through their attitude and performance.
It could be argued Crandall was successful in making AA a major airline but he seemed to be a miserable soul. He seemed to be driven not by wanting to run a good airline, but wanting to run everybody over just so he could be number one.

 

[publisher]

last time

I think that it was doomed because there were a bunch of people who did not want it saved.

If American Airlines showed up and wanted to save it, Ok. I jsut do not think anyone really credible showed up early enough in the game to save it.

I think ythat the IAM situation, not the pilot situation made it extremely unattractive on top of weak financials, debt load, fleet, etc.

You guys think Bush was out to help Lorenzo, I think that he was more pressured by the other airline ceo's to leave this alone than to help Lorenzo. They wanted Eastern to die.

Who helped Braniff, National, Pan American, TWA.

The only thing that made the bankruptcy court mad is that Lorenzo pillaged and left little for them except debt and obligations. Not their job to determine who is fit and not fit.

 

[enigma]

Re: Competent Managers

Without putting you on the spot Enigma, what is it like at Spirit?

I just receivedl the call for a trip, so I'll get more specific later. Generally, Spirit is a good place for pilots to work. As long as you show up and do your job, you'll never hear from a supervisor. Our Flight Ops staff is good people.

regards,
8N

 

[Tim47SIP]

Boeingman

A little off of the subject but you stated something that made me wonder.

LOL, but reading publishers posts, you must take into account that many people think like him. The people who view crossing a picket line blashpomeous (sp) are becoming fewer and fewer.

Do you really believe this today? Back when all of the Scabs became Scabs, there wasn't really allot known as to the reprocussions concerning their actions. Today, everyone knows what will happen to your carreer if you become a scab. The only individuals who I believe would cross in todays environment would be people who wanted to just get time to go work somewhere other than a major.

Personally, I would leave the business before crossing any picket line whether I agreed with the whys or not. I know of no one who would cross but I know of a whole lot of people who would like to get rid of ALPA. So even if the consensus are mad at the union, I don't think youll get great numbers of crossers.

What are your or anyones thoughts concerning this. Thanks.

 

[FD109]

Competent Airline Management

SDF2BUF2MCO,

Unfortunately I've never worked for what I would consider a good FINANCIAL/CORPORATE management team. There were a few that I thought at first would be, but they didn't make it.

Eastern's flight operations management, however, was absolutely first class. They were there through one group of incompetent financial wizards after another, and they were the ones who made Eastern a wonderful place to work, especially for pilots. Until Lorenzo, EAL really WAS a great place to work.

You should also note that a significant percentage of EAL's flight ops management honored the picket line (and that is almost unheard of as I'm sure you know) because they thought like the rest of us that it was the only possible way to save the company.

As to some of the good airline managers, I'd say, Herb K. at Southwest, C. E. Woolman at Delta, Bob Six at Continental. and I'm sure there are others, but these are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

We had hoped for Peter Uberroth at Eastern, but Lorenzo shot that deal down at the very last possible minute. Who knows how he would have worked out, but we had nowhere to go but up.

 

[Boeingman]

A little off of the subject but you stated something that made me wonder.

LOL, but reading publishers posts, you must take into account that many people think like him. The people who view crossing a picket line blasphemous (sp) are becoming fewer and fewer.

Do you really believe this today? Back when all of the Scabs became Scabs, there wasn't really allot known as to the repercussions concerning their actions. Today, everyone knows what will happen to your career if you become a scab. The only individuals who I believe would cross in today’s environment would be people who wanted to just get time to go work somewhere other than a major.

Personally, I would leave the business before crossing any picket line whether I agreed with the whys or not. I know of no one who would cross but I know of a whole lot of people who would like to get rid of ALPA. So even if the consensus is mad at the union, I don't think you’ll get great numbers of crossers.

What are your or anyone’s thoughts concerning this. Thanks.

I absolutely believe that more today than in 83. Especially in this economic and industry climate. Not discounting your ideals, but for many talk is cheap. Some who crossed stunned me and there were those who stayed out I never would have guessed. You never know who will back you until it is all over.

In 83, a lot was known about he consequences of crossing a picket line, yet at CAL, they came in droves. There were many former ALPA pilots who were new hires at CAL. They, along with the old CAL guys who crossed knew exactly what they were getting in to. Not that it bothered them in the least. I have always asked but no one can answer. Why are so many ex ALPA pilots on the CAL scab list?

Most of the former ALPA pilots who came were bitter at ALPA and didn't give a dang about the scab list or being blackballed. Today we see ALPA disenfranchising many younger pilots and getting a bad taste in their mouths about the mainline vs. regional divide. Either real or perceived.

Your last sentence is very prophetic. We felt the same way as did the EAL pilots I’m sure. We had the same belief that no one would cross our line. We were sorely mistaken. Those who attempt a strike now are in my opinion insane. I think the Comair pilots were very lucky management didn't try to operate.

Another mistake is to assume these guys are inferior in their abilities. I know that for a select few, especially on this board, that notion soothes some resentment. In reality it is not true. Having flown with these guys at CAL for years, I can safely say that they are no worse or better on average than any other pilot. In fact, during the strike, weak sisters were fired with no union protection so the ones who stayed were pretty sharp.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[Boeingman]

Good post. It is this fact that makes me take the time to engage him. I'm stupid enough to think that I might actually affect some change in the way people like him think about professional pilots.

regards,
8N

LOL. There will always be a chasim between those who aspire/or are in management vs. the line grunt.

I've beaten my head agaisnt the wall with some over our pilots at CAL as well. Believe it or not, many very strong ALPA supporters are on the "list".

 

[FD109]

Re: last time

I think that it was doomed because there were a bunch of people who did not want it saved. ]

Now there's a specific answer!

"I think ythat [sic] the IAM situation, not the pilot situation made it extremely unattractive on top of weak financials, debt load, fleet, etc."

A little more specific, Publisher, but not much.

Eastern had problems. No question about that, but with the huge resources the company also had, the problems could have been overcome by competent management. Even Lorenzo said that in the bankruptcy filing.

As yet, you have neither suggested nor documented anything to show that Eastern's problems were insurmountable.

"You guys think Bush was out to help Lorenzo, I think that he was more pressured by the other airline ceo's to leave this alone than to help Lorenzo. They wanted Eastern to die.

I'm glad you are finally admitting that Bush took an active part in the destruction of EAL!

We're probably both correct as to his reasons, but Bush's connections to Lorenzo are too well documented and too obvious to ignore. Bush "left alone" the appointment of a PEB, but he took an active part by vetoing legislation that could have saved EAL.

"The only thing that made the bankruptcy court mad is that Lorenzo pillaged and left little for them except debt and obligations. Not their job to determine who is fit and not fit.

I don't know if the bankruptcy court was mad or not, but, don't forget, the bankruptcy court DID declare Lorenzo "unfit to reorganize this estate" when they booted him out.

Unfortunately, the court booted him a year too late because Lorenzo had enough SCABs to help him keep it running for that year while he stripped as much from the assets as possible.

Publisher, I'm proud of you! Though you've still failed to back up any of your arguments, or present any documented specifics, you've come a long way.

(1) You've admitted that George H. W. Bush was directly involved in Eastern's demise, and

(2) You've virtually admitted that Lorenzo was the last, and proximate cause of Eastern's death.

Now, if you'll re-examine you position on SCABs.

 

[publisher]

Typhoon

It is easy to say you will not cross a line when it is your union striking over what you feel is a fair issue.

The hard part is to stay out when you know that the whole thing is a pissing contest between one giant ego and another giant ego. Has nothing to do with you and will probably result in you losing everything.

What we seem to be arguing about is what the alternative to Lorenzo was. I say no one showed up. I say that there were more people in favor of letting it go down than keeping it up.

I think Bush wanted no part of this crap and left Lorenzo on his own to the appreciation of the other major management who wanted the airline to fail. Frankly I don't think you even thought of this probablility until I mentioned it.

I still do not think Lorenzo was the cause of anything. He was doing exactly what one should think he could do. Ok, they labelled him unfit.. Sure they did, he was not there to do anything except pillage. He has been involved in other airlines.

Did he care if he was labelled unfit, not really.

The part you seem so reluctant to see is that it does not make any difference unless someone showed up that was there to rebuild Eastern. You can talk about Peter U but really, he was just another pillage guy with no background in this at all.

People seem to think that I support scabs because in this case I think that there was no logic to this situation. I really do not know or care what the facts were at CAL or any other situation.

I have no interest in being in a union so obviously I have no feel for it and have never worked for a hourly pay check. I took a bunch of ex Eastern pilots down with me to Africa and they had no interest in getting shot at so there you go. Different strokes for different folks.

You can give me all the facts that you want to. At Evergreen we had planes that were painted in the postal service colors but they were not their's.

You or someone else was right about Comair. They did not try to operate. But, every minute since then, Delta has been taking steps to see that this never happens to them again. The other majors have started to divest their regionals. They will not say that this is a result of the strike but it is.

Enron, Worldcom, Arthur Anderson and others reported massive profits some years back. It was crap/ The paper lied.

Do you think anyone was going to come out in the press and say we are not interested in Eastern because their IAM union management are a bunch of you know whats and we think that theri maintenance people are incompetant boobs.

Get a life Typhoon. this is obviously more important to you than me.

 

[FD109]

We need an agent

Publisher,

After reading your reply to typhoon and your last one to me, something suddenly occured to me--I had a flash of insight.

Have you ever seen Pat Buchanan and Bill Press' show on CNN? If you haven't, they discuss and debate various issues with Buchanan representing the right and Press representing the left.

You and I need to get a good agent and approach CNN, or some other cable network, about a similar program. I still think you are full of crap and I'm sure you feel the same about me, but at least with our very own television program we could turn our personal crap coefficients into something from which we could make some money.

If you are interested, have your people contact my people, and we'll do lunch to talk about it.

Regards,

FD109

Hey guys: In response to a private message I just received--I'm joking and at the same time trying to make the point that we sometimes take ourselves and our points of view too seriously. It was a Joke for heavens sake; I don't really think CNN would talk to either Publisher or me.