What made Eastern GO Under?

[chawbein]

Why do airline pilots continue to rely on the "unions" for their jobs and their careers? The airline industry is broken, and the only way to fix it is to give unions the boot. The market will determine pay and ability/experience will determine assignmnets. The unions are artificially lowering the supply curve for pilots. Think if there were no union tomorrow, do you really think all pilots would lose their jobs? No. Would their salaries go down? Most definitely. Would there be as many young pups willing to fly for peanuts when there is no prospect to be making six-figs after five years? No. I understand that "that's just the way it is", and I don't think poorly about anyone for supporting the union, after all it is in their own best interest. Forgive me for being such an unadulterated capitalist; however, most people in other industries seem to do just fine without union representation.

 

[Cavpilot]

Why do airline pilots continue to rely on the "unions" for their jobs and their careers? The airline industry is broken, and the only way to fix it is to give unions the boot.

I used to have a similar opinion to yours...untill I got my first airline job.
When I ran my family's business in the construction industry, I watched my union shop competitors fold all around me. We treated our employees with respect, so the union coming into our shop was never a concern. I could not figure out why my competition could not treat their people the way we did.
My opinion changed when I went to work for Comair. If there was ever a textbook case as to why unions are so strong in the airline world, it is them. At least they were equal opportunity opressors, they treated all of thir employees like dirt. I shutter to think how they would treat their pilots if there was no contract to protect them.
I escaped Comair about the same time the strike ended. I am told that it is a lot better there now. I hope so, I still miss the peolple I flew with there.

 

[enigma]

For all you guys that voted for Bush, yes , history IS bound to repeat itself. (i.e. Enron, Worldcom)I know many of you just love to hate Clinton, but at least he was one the most labor friendly Presidents we've had since FDR.

Maybe my memory's a little foggy, but didn't Clinton allow the AA pilots to take a hosing?

BTW, Enron was a company that existed only because the energy industry was basically de-regulated. Do you happen to know who was president when 99% of the lobbying (read that bribery), that allowed Enron to build its house of cards, was successful? Whose administration did Robert Rubin work in? Which ex-Secretary of the Treasury called the Bush administration begging Bush to cover up the Enron mess? Can you say Robert Rubin, Treasury Sec, under Clinton. Which administration ignored Mr. Rubins' requests?

Same for worldcom. These business's went down because of fraud and deceit allowed during the Clinton administration.

The sad truth is that this country decided in the early sixties that we no longer needed to follow the moral dictates of a supreme being, you are now seeing the results of a society with no moral center. It's all our fault. But Misters Clinton ("that depends upon what is means") and Gore (" there was no controlling legal authority") are much more exemplary of the breakdown of society than are either of the Bushs.

regards,
8N
BTW, I consider a president who allows this laborer to keep more of MY money to be labor friendly.

 

[enigma]

Why do airline pilots continue to rely on the "unions" for their jobs and their careers?

I don't rely on the association (ALPA/union) for my career or job. I do rely on the association to protect me from arbitrary and capricious treatment at the hands of managment. The airline industry runs twenty four/seven. We work nights/weekends, holidays/ etc. In the absence of decent work rules and a union to enforce fairness, management plays favorites. In other words, your quality of life can be dramatically affected because someone else kissed the bosses behind. The unions established seniority to prevent such favoritism. I have worked at a non-union carrier that did not respect seniority. I can tell you that in such an environment, the amount of inequity was huge. Upgrades were based upon how well you kissed up, schedules always seemed to reflect who happened to be the favorite, and who was on the outs with managment. Oh Yea, getting on the outs was as easy as refusing to fly a broken/illegal airplane.

The ALPA was started as a safety organization, and I believe that safety still functions as our number one priority. ALPA is responsible for limits on flight and duty time; absent those limits, management would take the chance that I wouldn't crash at the end of twenty hour day. ALPA was responsible for almost all of the regs that force companies to operate safely. You'd think that business sense would dictate that an airline want to operate safely, but recent actions by the AirTransport Association to sue the FAA over the Whitlow letter, reveal the true spots of the companies. BTW, the Whitlow letter was an FAA interpretation of duty time that said a pilot could not be on duty over 16 hours, period. The ATA fought that tooth and nail. Even after the AA MD80 at LIT crashed when the crew was at end of a max duty day.


Gotta go, Sorry for the less than perfect composition, I'm short of time. Please think about some of this and let me know what you think.
regards,
8N

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: all most right

[Lorenzo] felt that if he took over, the tension would be relaxed and he could save it and bought cheap. He was wrong and went ahead to make the best of his investment. He just did not appreciate the ill feelings that existed and the entrenchment.

Bull__it. Bavis and Bryan offered to meet with Lorenzo shortly after the buyout to discuss matters. He flatly turned them down, saying "I don't talk to unions."

While he was no saint, he gets a bad rap for a deal here that he did not create.

Hitler wasn't such a bad guy either, once you got to know him.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Re: all most right

I do not think that it is correct that Lorenzo bought it to break up. That was more a result than a reason for the purchase.

He felt that if he took over, the tension would be relaxed and he could save it and bought cheap. He was wrong and went ahead to make the best of his investment. He just did not appreciate the ill feelings that existed and the entrenchment.

While he was no saint, he gets a bad rap for a deal here that he did not create. Like dinosaurs, big things take a long time to hit the ground when falling.

Nothing personal, but that is an ADBSURDLY generous mischaracterization of Eastern's demise. Your view of corporate raidership in the 80, Lorenzo in particular, must be interesting through those rose colrored glasses of your yours.

Typhoon has it right. By your twisted logic, Hitler just thought he was improving the "economic" situtation for the Fatherland when he tried to take over Europe. The 6 millionn innocent people he murdered were just victims of unintended circumstance.

Hopefully you will never decide to go into airline management.

 

[Toecutter]

Enigma,

I must say that you live up to your name. Although I disagree with your response to my post, I think your second post was right on the mark. I'm not going to start a "who's the most corrupt administration contest."just because I know it won't change anybody's mind on how they feel. However, the second post answered my thoughts exactly on someones earlier post about why we need unions. I've heard horror stories on what is was like flying for airlines like Value Jet and Fine Air.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Oh and speaking of scabs the guy who started Gulfstream...SCAB!

Yes, they're everywhere. The late Legend Airlines had one in its command structure.

My dad spent a total of two weeks at AirTran during the late Nineties. During ground school he found out the head of their in-house union was a scab. Adios.

As for presidential administrations, I'm not going to waste everybody's time by comparing the level of corruption in each. I'll only remind everyone that Frank Lorenzo was one of George Herbert Walker Bush's larger campaign contributors. Let's just say I'm not a big fan of that gentleman...or his dim-witted sons.

Publisher: I'm still aghast at your view of Lorenzo's work at Eastern. Are you related to him or something? As militant a pilot group as Eastern had...sometimes I'm amazed Lorenzo is still breathing!

You know one way you can tell an airline has class? If the stripes on the cuffs of the pilots' uniform jackets go all the way around the sleeve...the way Eastern's did. When winter rolls around, take a good look at a Delta or ASA pilot's sleeves. (Yeah, ASA's leather jackets are expensive...but they're not as silly-looking as the blazers.)

I was a true E.A.L. baby. My first ride in an airplane was at six months...MIA-SJU, so my mom could show me off to her family. It was a DC-8-60...'course I don't really remember it too well.... Whenever fate ever brought me to some unfamiliar city, if I saw a silver jet with a two-tone blue hockey stick--"Caribbean blue" and "ionosphere blue," of course--I had the funny feeling of still being connected to home. Sounds wierd, I guess.

I miss it...and I didn't even work there!

 

[mckpickle]

WOW good for your dad, that takes gutts!

 

[flight-crew]

One of my mentors who helped me so greatly in my pilot career was (is) a scab. I've known him since I was a young kid and well before I even started flying. He will always be my friend. But I strongly disagree with scabbing. And I think that there will always be a part of me that resents what they have done.

And maybe Eastern would still be around were it not for all the scabs who stole the jobs of the Eastern pilots. Although I was only a young kid when most the scabbing took place (CAL 83', UAL 85', and EAL 89'), I can't help but look back at the past and realize the true damage that these individuals have done to the whole industry. You can really learn a lot about history by looking at the past. For the pilots who truely disagreed with the above strikes and crossed the line, I'm not sure if they totally did it out of greed, but maybe more because of the way they felt. I look at them more as "picked line crossers" or "strike breakers." But the pilots who came right off of the street (SCABS), are scabs in every sense of the word. They knew that there was an active strike in progress and made their decision.

Now if ALPA just wanted to get rid of Frank Lorenzo at CAL and EAL by strikes and didn't care what happened to the striking CAL and EAL pilots, then that was wrong. But you have to remember one thing, a strike is always voted on by the pilots. The pilots voted.