What Heavy jet will SWA buy?

[General Lee]

I don't know why ANYONE questions a SWA pilot about flying a 737 with VNAV? They ONLY fly that plane type, and they fly it 5 times per day, 6 while flying Intra Texas. They should be experts, each and every one of them! Just ask them....



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

Wave,

I have been in a SWA cockpit at least twice that I can remember on the KEPEC arrival to the 25s where the gear came out between IPUMY and NIPZO. 20 out going into SAN seems to be a regular thing.

If you have autothrottles, they should wake up if the speed gets close to 15 KIAS slow maintaining path. But when they go into throttle hold, it doesn't always happen (ala Asiana 214). Not waking up happens occasionally on the 767 going into LAS. In this case, VNAV will drop from Path to Speed as the logic says +/- 15 KIAS. Same thing applies if the autothrottles are inop and you don't manually add power. VNAV logic is not dependent on autothrottles.

I do not know if there are different VNAV levels but the Boeing instructor I talked with said the principals were the same for all FMS/aircraft, it is the application that is different. Hawaiian 330 pilots use the same principles as I do in the 767, they just program their boxes/push their buttons differently.

And please, go back to using complete sentences....

SWA Bubba,

If the speed is close to the +15 KIAS range, I will get a "drag required" message to tell me to add more drag to increase my rate of descent. If I don't add the drag, then I will drop into VNAV speed as the speed continues to build as the rate of decent increases to hit the next required altitude.

Now in VNAV Speed and the FMS determines that the rate of descent can not be increased enough to hit the next altitude, then I will get the "unable next altitude" message. (I'll also get this message if I have my VNAV Descent speed set as high as possible and the aircraft can not descend at a great enough rate due to speed limitations which the autopilot will not exceed.)

The bottomline is that as long as I keep it in VNAV Path, I will make every altitude and speed contraint on the published arrival/approach. The easiest way (and the Boeing way) is to use speed brakes as required. The first time I ever did VNAV was for my 737 type and it was Boeing instructors teaching it at a Boeing training facility. I figure if the aircraft manufacturer says you can/should use speed brakes with flaps, then it is okay to do so. Further, as far as I know SWA is the only one with this self induced limitation. Is there some secret SWA knows that the rest of us don't, or is this a case of someone in power once saying "I believe this causes....so don't do it" and it becoming fact instead of one man's opinion?

I will grant there are some aircraft where there are limitations on the use of speed brakes with flaps. I believe it was prohibited in the DC-10 because it caused excessive roll rates but it's been 15 years since I looked at the DC-10 limitations and I'm not 100% sure on this.

Yes, there is. If you use the speedbrakes with flaps, it increases the flap inspection periods. And that saves SW money. Just like having an all 737 fleet.

I prefer to use any technique that keeps from using speedbrakes if I can. I don't care what you learned at Boeing, it's simple airmanship. Now that being said, it's not a heavy (like Wave and Bubba stated). And if I get in a bind, or ATC screws me I might use them. It's not that hard Jim.

 

[DCAA320]

I prefer to use any technique that keeps from using speedbrakes if I can.

What ^^^^^ she said.

Speed brakes are for when the pilot screws up, not ATC. I try never to use them.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

VNAV question: let's say you're at 280 knots in path on a descend via arrival into DEN for example. ATC gives you a speed reduction to 250 knots. What is the best way to handle it?

- Speed intervention doesn't help. For one, it goes into VNAV speed and disregards the path. More importantly, since you were already at idle thrust in path, thrust remains at idle and the airplane shallows the descent to maintain the newly selected speed. (Speed intervention was described to me as level change with altitude protection, but in the case of a slower speed, it can't guarantee an "AT" or "AT and BELOW" clearance.

- could reprogram the descent speed in the descent page for the slower speed. It will change the geometry on the path and you'll be too high right away. Unless I'm wrong (which happens frequently) you have no choice but to increase drag at this point and attempt to go down and slow down to re intercept the path at the new speed

If there is another method to handle a speed reduction and remain in path I would be very interested in hearing it. As a new guy, It's frustrating to try and fly an RNAV arrival when ATC issues a speed reduction which pretty much guarantees you will be high and struggling to get back on path.

 

[redflyer65]

Unable next altitude sir.

 

[DCAA320]

VNAV question: let's say you're at 280 knots in path on a descend via arrival into DEN for example. ATC gives you a speed reduction to 250 knots. What is the best way to handle it?

Put 250 in the box not speed intervene, see what happens, if 250 is not on the STAR tell them you hadn't planned that you will not make it.

 

[General Lee]

Put 250 in the box not speed intervene, see what happens, if 250 is not on the STAR tell them you hadn't planned that you will not make it.

So, you're the guy that always says "unable." Don't act like a jackhole. Just do it and stay professional. You're not unable, you are "unwilling." Whatever dude...... Learn to play in the playground..... I bet you are constantly kicked out of the pattern in Europe...


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[scoreboardII]

VNAV question: let's say you're at 280 knots in path on a descend via arrival into DEN for example. ATC gives you a speed reduction to 250 knots. What is the best way to handle it?

- Speed intervention doesn't help. For one, it goes into VNAV speed and disregards the path. More importantly, since you were already at idle thrust in path, thrust remains at idle and the airplane shallows the descent to maintain the newly selected speed. (Speed intervention was described to me as level change with altitude protection, but in the case of a slower speed, it can't guarantee an "AT" or "AT and BELOW" clearance.

- could reprogram the descent speed in the descent page for the slower speed. It will change the geometry on the path and you'll be too high right away. Unless I'm wrong (which happens frequently) you have no choice but to increase drag at this point and attempt to go down and slow down to re intercept the path at the new speed

If there is another method to handle a speed reduction and remain in path I would be very interested in hearing it. As a new guy, It's frustrating to try and fly an RNAV arrival when ATC issues a speed reduction which pretty much guarantees you will be high and struggling to get back on path.

This situation above as described: it depends. Do you have enough vertical altitude buffer to slow and stay at 1000vvi /VNAV while it slows and make the next XXXB altitude restriction? Most times you do. If not, first words out of my mouth "unable altitude restrictions at slower speed'. "You can have the speed or altitude, which one do you need?" Put the ball in their court.

ATC needs to learn they cannot dick with you on an RNAV.

 

[Jim]

Change all those "unable" to "don't want to". Save the "unable" for when it really can't be done. (I'll admit with their self-imposed limitation SWA guys might actually have to say "unable" more often then the rest of us.)

You're not just "teaching ATC", you're potentially causing problems for every other airplane in the area.

 

[DCAA320]

So, you're the guy that always says "unable." Don't act like a jackhole. Just do it and stay professional. You're not unable, you are "unwilling." Whatever dude...... Learn to play in the playground..... I bet you are constantly kicked out of the pattern in Europe...

Bye Bye---General Lee

Actually I have never said "unable" and have never been kicked out of the pattern. Just do it? You PU$$Y. Why not drop the gear at 20,000 feet when ATC screws up? You are a moron, stay in mom's basement.

 

[waveflyer]

Jim, stop preaching like you're king flyer and we don't know how to do basics -
That's what's been ridiculous- we get the job done and from what I've seen of Hawaiian, SWA is a lot more flexible and able to work with ATC than you guys-
Maybe you could learn that from us
Most rnav arrivals have you decel, so if you enter the speed if you are initially high, you ultimately trade a decel now for a decel later and you're fine- just sort it out
If the stupid stick will fix it reasonably- then yeah, we do it-
If it's still tight since our stupid stick doesn't do much for all that shake- then yeah- exactly as posted- we give atc options and let them decide and are usually pretty dang cool with them about
Bubba has tried to tell you 2-3 times now- flaps won't help you at 280 kts slowing to 250- so your pet peeve is still dumb

Our atc relationship is so much better than any other airline I've worked at- that's a critique you shouldn't throw out there. (Especially you GL with all the Aggro unable deltoids you got clogging up the system)
You guys are so defensive about it, that you actually created an urban legend that atc gives us priority bc of pizza parties and TVs instead of us as a group being ready and getting the job done.

(You do know jim that you guys get extra separation in Oakland where our guys get cleared one after the other and trusted to make it work-)
You know since you made yourself expert of all things SWA vs the pilots who all fly 700 hours + /year here-
But you know
Because you jump seat
:-/

40 mile gear down
5000 hours here I've never seen it- but you did

Ok
Tell us more

 

[scoreboardII]

Change all those "unable" to "don't want to". Save the "unable" for when it really can't be done. (I'll admit with their self-imposed limitation SWA guys might actually have to say "unable" more often then the rest of us.)

You're not just "teaching ATC", you're potentially causing problems for every other airplane in the area.

Uh, no, never read anywhere that saying "don't want to" gives you any credible ATC handling. Sorry, the professional response is "unable". Let them handle their problems, we have our own.

Or, what Wave said^^^^.

 

[Jim]

Uh, no, never read anywhere that saying "don't want to" gives you any credible ATC handling. Sorry, the professional response is "unable". Let them handle their problems, we have our own.

Or, what Wave said^^^^.

I see sarcasm is beyond you.

The professional response is to comply with ATC instructions if at all possible so as not to create additional conflicts for other aircraft in the area.

If you can use speed brakes to comply with the ATC instructions, the professional response is to use your speed brakes. For the SWA guys, I realize that your company limitations may preclude this and that is why I put the SWA caveat. The rest who just don't want to use speed brakes are making things harder for everyone else in the system. That is NOT professional.

 

[Jim]

Jim, stop preaching like you're king flyer and we don't know how to do basics -
That's what's been ridiculous- we get the job done and from what I've seen of Hawaiian, SWA is a lot more flexible and able to work with ATC than you guys-
Maybe you could learn that from us
Most rnav arrivals have you decel, so if you enter the speed if you are initially high, you ultimately trade a decel now for a decel later and you're fine- just sort it out
If the stupid stick will fix it reasonably- then yeah, we do it-
If it's still tight since our stupid stick doesn't do much for all that shake- then yeah- exactly as posted- we give atc options and let them decide and are usually pretty dang cool with them about
Bubba has tried to tell you 2-3 times now- flaps won't help you at 280 kts slowing to 250- so your pet peeve is still dumb

Our atc relationship is so much better than any other airline I've worked at- that's a critique you shouldn't throw out there. (Especially you GL with all the Aggro unable deltoids you got clogging up the system)
You guys are so defensive about it, that you actually created an urban legend that atc gives us priority bc of pizza parties and TVs instead of us as a group being ready and getting the job done.

(You do know jim that you guys get extra separation in Oakland where our guys get cleared one after the other and trusted to make it work-)
You know since you made yourself expert of all things SWA vs the pilots who all fly 700 hours + /year here-
But you know
Because you jump seat
:-/

40 mile gear down
5000 hours here I've never seen it- but you did

Ok
Tell us more

I understand Wave, SWA is all knowing and better than everyone else. SWA always knows how to best do everything and SWA is always right. Every pilot wants to fly for SWA and hopes that they are lucky enough to be bought by SWA so they can get an otherwise undeserved/unearned place at the bottom of the SWA seniority list.

And I'm sure the shorter clearance interval at OAK for SWA is has nothing to with our being a heavy generating more wake turbulence and requiring greater separation. I've never heard of any ATC complaints against Hawaiian at OAK or anywhere else. And if we say "unable" it's because we really are "unable" not because we don't want to. We comply with ATC request so we don't have to give them options or be continually "flexible".

If you ignore GL and the other trolls, it can still be a useful discussion-

I should have stayed out. Why was I naive enough to believe you?

All hail SWA! We are not worthy!

I'm done.

 

[DCAA320]

I'm done.

I doubt you're done

Sorry dude, ATC tried to kill me by vectoring me into an RJ, if they want a descent of 10,000 feet in 20 NM, they can blow me, use your speed brakes all you want.