What has ALPA done for me lately?

[FDJ2]

Pylut, the original lawsuit had the following:

LEROY BENSEL, individually and
as representative of a class consisting
of former Trans World Airlines, Inc.,
pilots employed by TWA Airlines LLC
as of April 2001,
Appellant
v.
ALLIED PILOTS ASSOCIATION;
TWA AIRLINES, LLC;
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION;​

AMERICAN AIRLINES, INC.

The lawsuits against the APA, TWA and AA were summarily dismissed as was the lawsuit against ALPA. On appeal the Appeals Court decided to allow Bensel and the TWA pilots to proceed with discovery.

The Court stated: "It is our belief that at this stage of the proceedings Plaintiffs should be given a fuller opportunity for discovery relating to Count I and permitted to ascertain if there is any factual support for their claims. At this point we ask “not whether a plaintiff will ultimately prevail but whether the claimant is entitled to offer evidence to support the claims.”

"It may be that ALPA properly carried out its duty of fair representation and there was nothing ALPA could realistically accomplish under difficult circumstances. But it is too early to decide this issue at this point."

 

[pylut]

exactly,
4 entities were named.
the ONGOING litigation is with alpa. I think I might have mentioned that a time or two

 

[FDJ2]

exactly,
4 entities were named.
the ONGOING litigation is with alpa. I think I might have mentioned that a time or two

Sorry if I missed it. Carry on.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

exactly,
4 entities were named.
the ONGOING litigation is with alpa. I think I might have mentioned that a time or two

Believe me... if the APA or AMR was still a viable legal target then you'd be at it... ALPA is left holding the bag...

Run your program....suck the union dry.... we won't worry...you know..just as long as you get yours... the rest of the dues paying 60,000 will pay for something they had nothing to do with.....

If ALPA was an in house TWA union...you'd have nothing....

Heck you should've WANTED the skywest pilots to join...more dues money for you to siphon...

Q. if your award put ALPA out of operation...and you knew so...would you proceed?

 

[pylut]

Believe me... if the APA or AMR was still a viable legal target then you'd be at it... ALPA is left holding the bag...
I believe you, I was simply informing you of the status of the lawsuit.

Run your program....suck the union dry.... we won't worry...you know..just as long as you get yours... the rest of the dues paying 60,000 will pay for something they had nothing to do with.....

If ALPA was an in house TWA union...you'd have nothing.... Except perhaps honest representation

Heck you should've WANTED the skywest pilots to join...more dues money for you to siphon...

I have good friends at Skywest. Now why would I want them to belong to such a waste of time like alpa?
I would much rather see them start or join an effective union than throw their money away on a sham like alpa.

Q. if your award put ALPA out of operation...and you knew so...would you proceed?

Actually, that would be my preference. What do you think of that? Shocking isn't it, cause then I won't have "gotten mine". Frankly this is about righting a wrong, not the money. I think the 60,000 dues paying members would be much better served by alpa going away and making way for an effective union. The present incarnation of alpa is too entrenched with career bureaucrats more concerned about their own job security than the integrity of the profession. Somewhere along the line alpa lost it's soul. bummer for all of us.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Actually, that would be my preference. What do you think of that? Shocking isn't it, cause then I won't have "gotten mine". Frankly this is about righting a wrong, not the money.

What is the wrong? What could ALPA have reasonably done?

I mean give me a objective view.. or even.. argue to case from ALPA's point of view...if you can..

I think the 60,000 dues paying members would be much better served by alpa going away and making way for an effective union.

Wow... you speak for 60,000 pilots.. that is a bit presumptious don't you think?

The present incarnation of alpa is too entrenched with career bureaucrats more concerned about their own job security than the integrity of the profession.Somewhere along the line alpa lost it's soul. bummer for all of us.

Can you place a time frame on when ALPA lost its soul... do you think it is about the same time you realized that your expectations wren't valid?

 

[pylut]

What is the wrong? What could ALPA have reasonably done?
Re-read post 28.
Do you think alpa acted honorably with the TWA pilots? If so, it says a lot about your definition of honor.
I mean give me a objective view.. or even.. argue to case from ALPA's point of view...if you can..



Wow... you speak for 60,000 pilots.. that is a bit presumptious don't you think?

I can only speak for one person, myself. That is why that statement starts with "I think".

Talk about presumptious, how bout alpa ignoring their own poll results on the age 60 poll. Clearly they know better than their membership. Now that's presumptious. I know I know, your old argument about 30% responding. How many do you think are going to bothger to respond next time? clearly, informing your own union (alpa) is a waste of time as they have their own agenda. If they want to know what your opinion is they will tell you.

Can you place a time frame on when ALPA lost its soul...
No, I can't pinpoint when the decline in moral integrity began at alpa
do you think it is about the same time you realized that your expectations wren't valid?

My expectation was honorable representation from my union. You are correct, that apparently was not a valid expectation from alpo at that point in time.

compromise is valid in many circumstances. Not, however when your own integrity is at stake.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I think the 60,000 dues paying members would be much better served by alpa going away and making way for an effective union.

Who would populate and operate this new union?

Would it's leadership come from a different subset? Does ALPA prevent it's members from being elected to positions that influence policy and direction?

The present incarnation of alpa is too entrenched with career bureaucrats more concerned about their own job security than the integrity of the profession.

Somewhere along the line alpa lost it's soul. bummer for all of us.

Somewhere along the line events occured that caused your expectations to be filed under "not likely". The actual causes were economic, political, and governmental, but that doesn't fit on a flight bag sticker. You're pi$$ed, and need a villian! You need someone to blame and to hate.

ALPA fits.

After all, that 1.95% of your income is supposed to provide your career with penicillin, tractor-beams, and deflector shields.

ALPA failed to protect you, those weasels!

But the NEW UNION!...boy!...that'll be different! It'll be invincible. It'll change bankruptcy laws overnight, make the White House view unions in a different light, and prevent you from ever having to lay over in the crappy room right next to the elevator!

It'll rock!

'Cept for a few problems:

1. A new union doesn't change the issues. It'll still have to deal with disunifying problems like Age 60. It'll still have to work with a hostile NMB, appointed by an anti-Labor administration.

2. It's still gonna depend on YOU. It's gonna depend on you to play a role. And this'll be the part worthy of a youtube clip: 15-minutes into the first meeting of theNEW UNION...you're gonna realize everybody doesn't view each issue exactly the same way YOU do! Uh-Oh! Please upload your stirring "We must be unified!" speech to the body after your first 51-49 vote.

3. Your expectations might change...but reality won't. And reality, my brother, is everything...not just the things you can control. Reality is the itchy trigger-finger of a 28-year old hedge fund manager whose personal expectation (to be a billionaire before he's 30) conflicts with your expecations. Reality is oil prices. Reality is the conflicting expectations of large organized pilot groups who might not be ALPA, might not speak English, and almost certainly don't give a rat's butt how badly you want your expectations.

There's more to the narrative...but you're probably well-read enough to figure out how it ends.

Call me Ishmael.

 

[ualdriver]

I'm going to have to admit some ignorance concerning the TWA lawsuit vs. ALPA. I'm relatively familiar with the sequence of events as posted by FDJ2 a few posts back and I skimmed the lawsuit.

This may be a big mistake, but here it goes......Can someone, without emotion, explain to me the logic behind why this group of TWA pilots is suing ALPA? What was it that that the TWA pilots wanted ALPA to do that it didn't do? If the TWA pilots had gotten everything that they wanted through ALPA against the AA pilots, what would that have been?

 

[pylut]

Razor-

Interesting that again I have been told that my expectations were not valid. The only expectation I have stated was that I expected my union to represent my interests with honor and integrity.

I did not expect alpa to protect me as you stated. Had alpa acted with integrity the result may very well have been the same.

You are right, reality won't change. the reality for me is that I will not belong to and support an organization that lacks integrity and honor....namely alpo.


So you and Rez can don your alpa cheerleading outfits and dance around in circles all you want it changes nothing. In fact the sad thing is it doesn't appear that you even see the need for change within alpa.

good luck with that, I don't see any further benefit watching you guys talk in circles.

My view is concise and constant:

1-alpa lacks honor and integrity
2-alpa has become an ineffective bloated bureauacracy no longer interested in the views of the members
3-I believe the TWA pilots lawsuit will succeed.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Interesting that again I have been told that my expectations were not valid. The only expectation I have stated was that I expected my union to represent my interests with honor and integrity.

Define honor and intergrity...mix in reality too...

I did not expect alpa to protect me as you stated. Had alpa acted with integrity the result may very well have been the same.

So.. you say ALPA didn't act with integrity but you are now using the "Scalded McDonalds Coffee" tactic (IOW no integrity) to respond?

You are right, reality won't change. the reality for me is that I will not belong to and support an organization that lacks integrity and honor....namely alpo.

I guess the real question is... integrity and honor... and YOU get to define it...

So you and Rez can don your alpa cheerleading outfits and dance around in circles all you want it changes nothing. In fact the sad thing is it doesn't appear that you even see the need for change within alpa.

All you talk about is what ALPA didn't do for you.... what did you do for the profession? Did you actively envoke positive change.. me thinks you are a taker... for your TWA career... your moral, legal and honorable, obligation ended with dues money. Tell me I am wrong.

good luck with that, I don't see any further benefit watching you guys talk in circles.

We have actually asked for clear, unemotional facts to explain the TWO pilots position. The only facts we have gotten are from legal docs.

In addition, you said you are ready to burn ALPA down and disregard the 60,000 members who still use ALPA has thier representation... I am trying to find honor in that..

My view is concise and constant:

1-alpa lacks honor and integrity
2-alpa has become an ineffective bloated bureauacracy no longer interested in the views of the members
3-I believe the TWA pilots lawsuit will succeed.

You want a financial award for YOU regardless of the impact on 60,000 other pilots... got it!

 

[Vne]

I believe the first tenet of Labor law regarding Duty of fair representation is "Do no harm"....
It is the former TWA pilots position that ALPA as bargaining agent "caused harm" by their actionable failure to materially and financially represent the TWA pilots while conducting negotiations with the APA.

The case moves forward. ALPA drags its feet. Discovery is on going. The trial will answer all relevant questions.

 

[flygirlqt]

You want a financial award for YOU regardless of the impact on 60,000 other pilots... got it!

Exactly the mentality of the apologists at Herndon discussing their absurd salary and benefit packages.

 

[PHXFLYR]

hey "QT.."

Just wondering....If you were employed as one of the "apologists",would you still be complaining about the "absurd salary and benefit packages", or would they somehow now be justified? I'm going to assume that you are an ALPA member. If so, and if the salaries that these folks receive seems to be such a huge sticking point with you,as maybe it should be;then did you take the time to submit a resolution at your last LEC meeting calling for a complete overhaul of the ALPA National salary structure? Or is it easier just to fit in with "the boys" by spouting off on an absolutley useless webboard like FI.com and not doing anything else about the matter? Just wondering.......



PHXFLYR

























PHXFLYR

 

[FDJ2]

I believe the first tenet of Labor law regarding Duty of fair representation is "Do no harm"....

The three part test is whether or not a unions actions are arbitrary, discriminatory or in bad faith.

It is the former TWA pilots position that ALPA as bargaining agent "caused harm" by their actionable failure to materially and financially represent the TWA pilots while conducting negotiations with the APA.


April 2, 2001: The TWA MEC passes a resolution waiving its seniority protection provisions in exchange for American’s “reasonable best efforts” promise.


Notice that it was the MEC not ALPA national that waived it's seniority protections. Were the actions of the TWA MEC arbitrary, discriminatory or in bad faith?


April 10, 2001: American’s purchase of TWA’s assets finalized; TWA-LLC begins operations as a separate air carrier.


Any part of this the fault of ALPA?

November 8, 2001: American and APA execute Supplement CC, an agreement governing the seniority integration of the former TWA pilots.


What part of this was done by ALPA? It appears that Supplement CC is an agreement between the APA and American.


March 5, 2002: NMB declares that American and TWA LLC are a “single carrier” for RLA purposes.


That's a NMB decision, not ALPA decision.

April 3, 2002: NMB certifies APA as the sole bargaining agent for all pilots, making Supplement CC effective; transition agreement between TWA-LLC and ALPA expires.


Again, a NMB decision, not an ALPA decision.

April 18, 2002: Arbitrator rejects ALPA’s allegation that American did not use its “reasonable best efforts” to protect the TWA-LLC pilots’ seniority integration, as promised in its letter.


ALPA took the seniority integration to arbitration and lost. Was that arbitrary, discriminatory or in bad faith? The arbitrator rejected the allegation, made by ALPA, that American did not use its "reasonable best efforts."

September 3, 2002: Class action initiated by former TWA pilots.

The case moves forward. ALPA drags its feet. Discovery is on going. The trial will answer all relevant questions.

JMHO, but it will go as far as the RJDC's litigation and wont make it to trial.

 

[flygirlqt]

hey "QT.."

Just wondering....If you were employed as one of the "apologists",would you still be complaining about the "absurd salary and benefit packages", or would they somehow now be justified? I'm going to assume that you are an ALPA member. If so, and if the salaries that these folks receive seems to be such a huge sticking point with you,as maybe it should be;then did you take the time to submit a resolution at your last LEC meeting calling for a complete overhaul of the ALPA National salary structure? Or is it easier just to fit in with "the boys" by spouting off on an absolutley useless webboard like FI.com and not doing anything else about the matter? Just wondering.......

PHXFLYR

I am happy that you are satisfied with what your dues are paying for. Yes I am an ALPA member, as was my Father and my Grandfather.

No, I would not accept such an outrageous salary, especially when the membership has suffered under such draconian pay cuts and loss and theft of retirements. There is something very disturbing when you have secretaries making thousands more than Regional Captains. Or, the President (whom by the way stated he would not accept one dollar more than his CAL salary) making 4 to 5 times his highest paid constituents.

I have also been around ALPA long enough to know that spending my time introducing a resolution regarding this travesty has just as much chances of actually fixing it as is my desire to blow you.

 

[ualdriver]

It is the former TWA pilots position that ALPA as bargaining agent "caused harm" by their actionable failure to materially and financially represent the TWA pilots while conducting negotiations with the APA.

Honestly, I'm not trying to pick a fight, but what were examples in a TWA pilot's eyes, where ALPA failed to materially and financially represent the group?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I am happy that you are satisfied with what your dues are paying for. Yes I am an ALPA member, as was my Father and my Grandfather.

What did trhey tell you about your responsibilities as an ALPA member?

No, I would not accept such an outrageous salary,

but yet you thought it was acceptable when others were saying... that UAL2000 and DAL2001 were outgragous... you felt those pilots should have taken cuts..

especially when the membership has suffered under such draconian pay cuts and loss and theft of retirements.

And how was it the staffers fault... expecially when the pilots agreed via free will to those paycuts.

There is something very disturbing when you have secretaries making thousands more than Regional Captains.

Perhaps... what is the cost of living in NOVA?

Or, the President (whom by the way stated he would not accept one dollar more than his CAL salary) making 4 to 5 times his highest paid constituents.

WRONG! that is not what he said... he said he would accept any pay structure the BOD agreed upon...

I have also been around ALPA long enough to know that spending my time introducing a resolution regarding this travesty has just as much chances of actually fixing it as is my desire to blow you.

Cute... maybe your resolution doesn't pass the sniff test amongts cooler heads in a democratic group.

You can fret that things that you do not or cannot easily control are the big problems in your life or you can (wo)man up and understand what you can control and work to effect change.

The choice and career are yours...

 

[Vne]

Honestly, I'm not trying to pick a fight, but what were examples in a TWA pilot's eyes, where ALPA failed to materially and financially represent the group?

Honestly I'm not going to say anything specific about the case . The facts and evidence will be presented in open court. I think ALPA has done a disservice to the union movement by their actions. You and I will just have to wait for the legal process to determine if the court feels that is so.

 

[ualdriver]

Honestly I'm not going to say anything specific about the case . The facts and evidence will be presented in open court. I think ALPA has done a disservice to the union movement by their actions. You and I will just have to wait for the legal process to determine if the court feels that is so.

So it's a secret? I knew the TWA guys were mad considering the circumstances, but when someone posted above that ALPA did something "dishonorable," I thought the facts of such action would be pretty easy to list?