What has ALPA done for me lately?

[ualdriver]

I don't know what the he!! makes you think anything BUT the union is the problem at this point?! How bad do things actually have to be before you start to question ALPA yourself? If you factor how expensive ALPA is, and how fundamentally flawed it is, how can you strike from consideration that another union couldn't do it better? It's about the only ingredient we haven't changed in our career equation.

Flopgut, who do you work for?

I'm not striking from consideration that another union couldn't do better than ALPA. What union, what is their specific plan to make things better, and how much less expensive is it going to be than ALPA to accomplish more with less? I'm all ears. He11, I'll run the recruiting drive at UAL if you have an organization that can help ALL airline pilots enjoy a better career! Details, please!

 

[FDJ2]

That's complete speculation, isn't it? I thought there were "facts" concerning the TWA lawsuit. I'm not hearing any, and that's what I was hoping to get.

The fact is that the TWA MEC, not ALPA National conceded their seniority integration protection based on AA and the APA giving a reasonable best effort at seniority integration.

When the seniority list was published, ALPA immediately grieved it. The arbitrator's decision was that AA and the APA had indeed given a reasonable best effort at a fair seniority integration. ALPA lost the argument and was then sued for the list produced by the APA and AA.

 

[ualdriver]

The fact is that the TWA MEC, not ALPA National conceded their seniority integration protection based on AA and the APA giving a reasonable best effort at seniority integration.

When the seniority list was published, ALPA immediately grieved it. The arbitrator's decision was that AA and the APA had indeed given a reasonable best effort at a fair seniority integration. ALPA lost the argument and was then sued for the list produced by the APA and AA.

OK, thanks. I was familiar with that timeline, but I thought there would have been very specific events that would have been cited by the TWA pilot group as a basis for the lawsuit. I mean, if one looks at what's going on with U.S. Airways, they can point to specifics in the Nicolau decision as a basis for their desire to give ALPA the finger (even though I think the U.S. Air guys are wrong). I would have assumed there would have been specifics in this TWA lawsuit as well. I suspect I'm beating a dead horse. It seems that everyone knows TWA is suing ALPA, but no one knows why.

 

[Vne]

The fact is that the TWA MEC, not ALPA National conceded their seniority integration protection based on AA and the APA giving a reasonable best effort at seniority integration.

When the seniority list was published, ALPA immediately grieved it. The arbitrator's decision was that AA and the APA had indeed given a reasonable best effort at a fair seniority integration. ALPA lost the argument and was then sued for the list produced by the APA and AA.

Yah thats it ...you must have a vistors pass to the Star Chamber Thanks ........

 

[PCL_128]

There has to be more than that!

You would think so, wouldn't you? Unfortunately, it doesn't take much in this country to file a lawsuit. This one will end the same way that the RJDC suit ended, having wasted tons of union money and resources for nothing.

 

[Flopgut]

I'll put you in the "I hate ALPA category because all they want is dues money." Thanks for the info......I think.

I'm a CAL pilot.

Put me in the category: "I can't stand pilots that don't understand what's actually going on". I have been in three pilot labor unions, I don't care what the name is per say, I just want a unified group that can respect other members. I'm sick of this Survivor-reality-show BS we've got going on. If the TWA guys say they have a case, let em work it! I don't think we need to exclude them simply because they've been voted off the island. If ALPA did something wrong--I want to know about it! I think we all should! Problem we've got here is a guy like Occam (and maybe you as well) doesn't want ALPA's dirty secrets exposed, wants to keep hiding them and keep them available for future use! Read Occam's posts. Anytime the golden share is brought up he's right there instantly. Got the same thing to say all the time and it's pretty clear that deception, half-truth, and all other manner of ALPA antics are something he's acutely aware of. Certainly, he's counting on them, and there are probably 1000s of guys like him over there. It's NWA for cryinoutloud...All they know is stuffing a knife in someone's back. ALPA merger policy was corrupted years ago by UAL, RLA job protections (that would have protected the TWA pilots) were dropped by ALPA to favor the olde "big three". Until we fix these problems, ALPA might be a lost cause. There are a lot of other unions out there. Any would be better where all pilot groups agreed to these sorts of principals.

Your new Master Chair is going to be a good one. When the dust settles and he gets to start working on the line pilots' relationship with the RLA, some real good could happen.

FWIW: I think we should have a national organization that works like SAG. Get your card when you get your ATP. We need to provide and administer our own retirement plan, health insurance, LOL, and unemployment (maybe even training). Replace our companies role in these pursuits. Got to have a card to get the benefits. It's NOT a bad idea.

 

[PCL_128]

If the TWA guys say they have a case, let em work it!

If you "let em work it," then they could end up bankrupting the union and ending all union protection for ALPA members. When you sue your union, you're really suing your fellow pilots.

 

[pilotss]

I'm all for the national seniority list!

 

[ualdriver]

If the TWA guys say they have a case, let em work it! I don't think we need to exclude them simply because they've been voted off the island. If ALPA did something wrong--I want to know about it! I think we all should!

I generally agree with this, assuming it's not a frivolous lawsuit over stuff ALPA had little or no control over. That's why I was asking about the facts of the lawsuit. I have no idea if ALPA was right or screwed up, but I'm assuming innocence until I hear facts otherwise.

ALPA merger policy was corrupted years ago by UAL, RLA job protections (that would have protected the TWA pilots) were dropped by ALPA to favor the olde "big three". Until we fix these problems, ALPA might be a lost cause.

OK, so what merger policy should ALPA have when two ALPA groups merge AND make both sides happy with the results? I like the one we have now. It's better and more fair than straight DOH, which is what I assume you're going to suggest. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Further, what policy should ALPA "impose" on non-ALPA carriers when there is a merger? What policy should ALPA "impose" on non-ALPA carriers when one of the merger parterns is a bankrupt ALPA carrier and the other is a healthier, non-ALPA carrier? Maybe we should make it illegal for a MEC to waive any of it's rights pre-merger, no matter what the circumstances?

I'm all ears as to what merger policy would have been a win-win situation for the TWA and AA pilots.

There are a lot of other unions out there. Any would be better where all pilot groups agreed to these sorts of principals.

What principles should we all agree to?

FWIW: I think we should have a national organization that works like SAG. Get your card when you get your ATP. We need to provide and administer our own retirement plan, health insurance, LOL, and unemployment (maybe even training). Replace our companies role in these pursuits. Got to have a card to get the benefits. It's NOT a bad idea.

Great idea. How do we implement that unless EVERY AIRLINE PILOT IN THE COUNTRY is under the ALPA umbrella? Let's say ALPA announced that tomorrow. How long do you think it will be before non-union carriers like JetBlue, Virgin, etc., simply undercut all of us again, like the LCC's did in the late 90's and early 00's and put us back into the same precarious situation we found ourselves several years ago? But then if ALPA makes efforts to get every airline pilot under the same umbrella in order to implement your idea, ALPA's accused of just wanting dues money and not caring about the plight of the airline pilot.

 

[Vne]

When you sue your union, you're really suing your fellow pilots.

When you ask your union for help you are really asking your fellow pilots for help.

 

[Flopgut]

If you "let em work it," then they could end up bankrupting the union and ending all union protection for ALPA members. When you sue your union, you're really suing your fellow pilots.

We're talking about TWA. If ALPA goes BK because it is proven that they witheld enthusiasm for the betterment of TWA pilots' careers (in the least bit), that will be OK. Because in that case, you and I never had any "union protection" in the first place.

Let them work this out and we'll ALL be better for it. Suing ALPA is tough love that they desparately need.

 

[FDJ2]

Yah thats it ...you must have a vistors pass to the Star Chamber Thanks ........

No, just a copy of the court document stating the known facts and time line.

 

[Flopgut]

I generally agree with this, assuming it's not a frivolous lawsuit over stuff ALPA had little or no control over. That's why I was asking about the facts of the lawsuit. I have no idea if ALPA was right or screwed up, but I'm assuming innocence until I hear facts otherwise.




OK, so what merger policy should ALPA have when two ALPA groups merge AND make both sides happy with the results? I like the one we have now. It's better and more fair than straight DOH, which is what I assume you're going to suggest. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Further, what policy should ALPA "impose" on non-ALPA carriers when there is a merger? What policy should ALPA "impose" on non-ALPA carriers when one of the merger parterns is a bankrupt ALPA carrier and the other is a healthier, non-ALPA carrier? Maybe we should make it illegal for a MEC to waive any of it's rights pre-merger, no matter what the circumstances?

I'm all ears as to what merger policy would have been a win-win situation for the TWA and AA pilots.




What principles should we all agree to?




Great idea. How do we implement that unless EVERY AIRLINE PILOT IN THE COUNTRY is under the ALPA umbrella? Let's say ALPA announced that tomorrow. How long do you think it will be before non-union carriers like JetBlue, Virgin, etc., simply undercut all of us again, like the LCC's did in the late 90's and early 00's and put us back into the same precarious situation we found ourselves several years ago? But then if ALPA makes efforts to get every airline pilot under the same umbrella in order to implement your idea, ALPA's accused of just wanting dues money and not caring about the plight of the airline pilot.

ALPA merger policy was great. Until RD at UALALPA determined the FAL merger was an "acquisition" and flushed all the FAL pilots down the toilet! Only months after the FAL pilots honored the UAL strike. Prior to that: It was big time ALPA in the late 80s that had RLA provided job protections eliminated from any pilot hired after 1974. The idea at the time was: Do we [ALPA] go after national seniority, and a national retirement plan (like www.rrb.gov) or not? The big ALPA carriers pilot's didn't like the idea because they actually believed that by trying to help ALL ALPA pilots they would be selling themselves short. In other words: NWA, UAL, and DAL pilots couldn't have a 10-15 million dollar career, if they were slowed down by ALPA national's quest for every pilot to have a good career. So they ended job protections for any pilot hired after 74 and went with this fuedlistic campaign of everyone vs. everyone. Now, we've all ended up with less than we would've had if we went the other way. (except RD, he took care of himself...he sued ALPA later, btw) TWA/AA was a win/win if you consider what would have happened if an ALPA carrier would have "acquired" TWA. Now the results have sucked for the TWA pilots to be sure, but worse has happened. Remember what UAL wanted to do to USAir and Cactus? That was going to be FAL part two IMHO. What I think they [TWA] are doing right now is seeking a determination on wether they got unbiased ALPA help or not. I don't think they did and they might deserve some money.

So here is what we do: (You'll be hearing from your MC on this same thing) We go after the RLA! Either we get the original protections back and move toward the national retirement, or they get rid of it as it pertains to line pilots and we get to have a srtike anytime we want! It's the right thing and this is the right time. We win either way although I think the best thing would be to go with the RLA. First off: Job protections for displaced pilots (top of the stack for jobs with another carrier). Then you have national retirement just like the RRB. A years of service/age metric gets you a fully funded retirement! No more worrying about retirement age when you have that waiting on you! You've also got protections on unemployment and LOL, and the list goes on. By re-focusing ALPA on the RLA, we could turn it from the wicked master it is now, into our agent/liaison for regulatory needs. The closer we can get to the RLA, the closer we're all to getting a fair deal. And this is NO fairy tale! Rail has this NOW! Airline pilots today more perfectly fit the initial reason/criteria for which rail got it in the first place.

 

[PCL_128]

What I think they [TWA] are doing right now is seeking a determination on wether they got unbiased ALPA help or not. I don't think they did and they might deserve some money.

The TWA MEC acted on advice that was given to them by their own merger attorney, not someone from Herndon. Merger attorneys are selected by individual MECs, and they don't come from ALPA National.

 

[Flopgut]

The TWA MEC acted on advice that was given to them by their own merger attorney, not someone from Herndon. Merger attorneys are selected by individual MECs, and they don't come from ALPA National.

If the TWA guys say they have something, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[PCL_128]

If the TWA guys say they have something, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I give my union the benefit of the doubt before I'll give a bunch of litigious pilots the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I don't know what the he!! makes you think anything BUT the union is the problem at this point?!

(sigh)

I copy.

For a while there I thought I might be reading posts from somebody with a clue.

My bad.

Bankruptcy Laws, judges, Airline Execs, investors, the White House ("foreign carrier CRAF is good for America!"), Railway Labor Act.

None of those put adverse pressure on your career. Only ALPA does that!

How bad do things actually have to be before you start to question ALPA yourself?

I question ALPA every day, sport! But my questions are directed to the local guys. If my local guys act like the AAA guys did with their "DOH or death!" play, then I hold them accountable...not the guys providing the support for all of us.

You don't have to like or dislike Duane Woerth or John Prater to understand they are not responsible for the poorly-handled merger mess at AAA. You do have to have an IQ above room temprature to discern the true villians, however.

If you factor how expensive ALPA is, and how fundamentally flawed it is, how can you strike from consideration that another union couldn't do it better?

I've posted my reasons why. If the words were too big, I apologize.

It's about the only ingredient we haven't changed in our career equation.

Seriously?

 

[Flopgut]

[/color]

(sigh)

I copy.

For a while there I thought I might be reading posts from somebody with a clue.

My bad.

Bankruptcy Laws, judges, Airline Execs, investors, the White House ("foreign carrier CRAF is good for America!"), Railway Labor Act.

None of those put adverse pressure on your career. Only ALPA does that!



I question ALPA every day, sport! But my questions are directed to the local guys. If my local guys act like the AAA guys did with their "DOH or death!" play, then I hold them accountable...not the guys providing the support for all of us.

You don't have to like or dislike Duane Woerth or John Prater to understand they are not responsible for the poorly-handled merger mess at AAA. You do have to have an IQ above room temprature to discern the true villians, however.



I've posted my reasons why. If the words were too big, I apologize.



Seriously?

Wow! What a letdown of a post from the uber-witty Occam. You didn't even attempt to refute being called out over your penchant for ALPA's dark side. That's the only reason you're bagging on these TWA guys; you think it's a waste of money to go the extra mile for any pilot group but your own, AND you sure as he!! don't want to have ALPA's merger policy become more stringent. I would guess that's about 90% of the plan over there at NWALPA, make sure that somehow you guys can be named successor airline and thereby toss out any form of merger policy. Great plan.

BK laws, judges, airline execs, investors, etc. they scare the crap out of you, don't they? You guys act tough, but when it gets down to the nut cuttin, you know it's going to be easier for you to adapt the divide and conquer tactics used by these evil masters as long as you come out on top. (and they'll appreciate/enable you too) ALPA merger policy and past mergers should be continuously modeled and reviewed. ALPA should have a think tank with finely tuned throw down plans for intergration on every possible merger ready to go. If it takes a lawsuit to get a healthy audit done on ALPA merger policy, so be it!

I say we take them on! This is complete BS. To fix things in the near term ALPA needs to hammer the RLA! Right now, we are strictly held to all the limitations and enjoy none of the benefits. No other profession is this far in the regulatory hole.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I just want a unified group that can respect other members.

...and World Peace!

Would you expect all members of a "unified" group to act exactly the same way on every issue?

Really?

Let's try a few, shall we?

1. Age 60. Any differences of opinion out there?
2. Scope. Are we all agreed on how that should work?
3. Support of candidates who favor Labor-friendly changes to Bankruptcy law. Anybody NOT down with Hillary?

If ALPA did something wrong--I want to know about it! I think we all should!

You're using a power sprayer instead of a sharpened pencil. "ALPA" screws something up every day! Problem is we don't tend to hold the specific knuckleheads accountable. If your LEC or MEC does something stupid...do we waterboard Prater?

Let's work that the other way: If Prater does something stupid (like read survey results incorrectly), do you blame your LEC Chairman?

Problem we've got here is a guy like Occam (and maybe you as well) doesn't want ALPA's dirty secrets exposed, wants to keep hiding them and keep them available for future use!

Here's ALPA's "dirty little secret": Some members are whiny dorks who need to blame somebody for the things that make them angry. And it's not so "little". Congress has an approval rating of 20%, yet we continue to re-elect incumbents! "Congress sucks!...um...but my guy is cool...".

Read Occam's posts. Anytime the golden share is brought up he's right there instantly.

Methinks we've found the Rosetta Stone! Floppy's got an issue. He's just like deer camp coffee: steaming and bitter!

Golden Share! Golden Share! neener! neener!

Got the same thing to say all the time and it's pretty clear that deception, half-truth, and all other manner of ALPA antics are something he's acutely aware of.

Um...yeah. Do some homework, Floppy, and re-read some of my posts about ALPA's galatically lame handling of the Age 60 issue. I also wrote of how ALPA screwed the pooch on the nascent FFDO program. When I think ALPA screws up, I'm vocal about it. There are more.

Latest issue: Membership extended to near-primates. (Cue flopgut)

It's NWA for cryinoutloud...All they know is stuffing a knife in someone's back.

Hey! You're supposed to be picking on ALPA! Either ALPA's the villian...or NWA pilots are the villian! Choose!

And remember: Golden Share! Golden Share! neener! neener!

ALPA merger policy was corrupted years ago by UAL,

W-w-what? MAKE UP YOUR MIND! Is it ALPA that's evil...NWA pilots that are evil...or UAL pilots, for corrupting Merger Policy?

(Can I call you "Sybil"?)

Something tells me you're just a giant bile grenade.

Need a hug?

Any would be better where all pilot groups agreed to these sorts of principals.

*chortle*

You mean where we'd all agree DOH is the only way to merge lists?

FWIW: I think we should have a national organization that works like SAG. Get your card when you get your ATP. We need to provide and administer our own retirement plan, health insurance, LOL, and unemployment (maybe even training). Replace our companies role in these pursuits. Got to have a card to get the benefits. It's NOT a bad idea.

Exactly! Every member of SAG is guaranteed work and guaranteed $20-million for each film! They ALL have health care, and never disagree on any issues.

(sigh)

 

[Occam's Razor]

I would guess that's about 90% of the plan over there at NWALPA, make sure that somehow you guys can be named successor airline and thereby toss out any form of merger policy. Great plan.

Nah, our secret plan is to sell the CAL Golden Share to Skybus.

(neener?)

BK laws, judges, airline execs, investors, etc. they scare the crap out of you, don't they?

Not half as much as fratricide.

ALPA should have a think tank with finely tuned throw down plans for intergration on every possible merger ready to go.

Thanks, Soloman!

The "throw down" plan is embedded. Either get along and find an acceptable compromise...or you get pronged in binding arbitration. 'Course, a kick-a$$ plan can't work if you waive your right to use it.

To fix things in the near term ALPA needs to hammer the RLA! Right now, we are strictly held to all the limitations and enjoy none of the benefits. No other profession is this far in the regulatory hole.

Ahh! Agreement at last!

I'm with you! The RLA must be changed.

I seem to recall Duane Woerth telling us that in 2000, and 2004. Even gave us the responses to a pilot-focused survey the candidates had answered on our issues. Then he told us how important it was to vote for candidates who would support changes to the RLA.

Didja?