well that was quick.....

[waka]

I suppose that is one way to look at it. However the fact the unions spent $35M to ensure the issue would be defeated, is an other way to look at it. The left leaning FDR and F. Lagardia both said public employees should not be unionized for there is no incentive on the political side to control costs.

Are you kidding? 35M is paltry compared to money spent by corporate lobbyists. Besides, their statement about controlling costs were in a time that executives weren't paid the exorbitant money that they're paid now. Do you actually think that they're concerned with cost control in regard to their salary bonuses? Think again.

 

[waka]

Well

You just proved what an uninformed SHEEP you are. There is a huge difference between a public sector union and a private sector union.

"Well", no, there isn't.

Instead of just MINDLESSLY regurgitating what you're told and talking out of your ass, show your work and enumerate in labor law such a distinction. I can save you some time. There is exactly zero difference in labor unions representing private and public sector employees regarding labor law. The right wing spin machine has tried to sell the idea that collective bargaining for the public sector is what ails society economically so as to obfuscate the real issues and you are one of the buyers (loose with your money are ya?).

again you need to get the facts. Taxpayers are picking up these giant pensions because GOVCO cannot afford them. In the private sector these companies go bankrupt. Get a clue

Facts check sonny. When it comes to labor law (except when knee-jerk reactionary Republicans, say, in Wisconsin, that are trying to change it), it doesn't matter whether unions are representing the public or private sector. Worker's rights are worker's rights, period. i.e. So, when your house is on fire, the fire fighters shouldn't be able to bargain for their QOL??

You are galactically ignorant......apparently, by choice. I advise you to look beyond your nose.

 

[waka]

[/B]


So you agree that someone making 50G a year and has to work well into his or her 60's in a private sector job with only a 401k to live on should have to pay taxes so that a public sector employee can retire at 55 and collect a pension thats well over 50G a year for the rest of his life.

A. Quit making up straw man numbers and arguments. That said, I would prefer that taxes are raised on those making well over 50K. In that sense, those that benefit most should pay their share and if that means that paying taxes so a public sector employee can retire at whatever age for which their union can bargain, so be it.

Ohio is already broke >> and is going to be much deeper in debt in the very near future

Blame it on giving public sector workers their right to collectively bargain. Yeah right, they're the source of Ohio's budget woes, but don't consider the tax breaks for the wealthy.

I can see you having your opinion if you're wealthy. The funny thing is (unless you're signing bonus checks to executives and sports superstars) you're just another mindless sucker.

 

[G4dude]

I am sure you believe that is true. There are other's who believe that is not true. There is long history of companies with great union contracts that are no longer in business or used BK to break the contract to ensure the companies survival. BTW With all your insights into management practices, you should move into management and make the company a better place to work; you owe it to your fellow pilots,

Here is my favorite story: A couple of years ago, a Democratic congressman was campaigning, and talking about how he enjoyed his union job when he was younger, how good a deal the union got him and his coworkers. I checked, and discovered that company is now out of business, and has been for quite some time. Pretty funny.

 

[G4dude]

Well

You just proved what an uninformed SHEEP you are. There is a huge difference between a public sector union and a private sector union.

again you need to get the facts. Taxpayers are picking up these giant pensions because GOVCO cannot afford them. In the private sector these companies go bankrupt. Get a clue

Raj, I agree with you, but you might want to dial down the vitriol. Easy does it!

 

[G4dude]

"Well", no, there isn't.

Instead of just MINDLESSLY regurgitating what you're told and talking out of your ass, show your work and enumerate in labor law such a distinction. I can save you some time. There is exactly zero difference in labor unions representing private and public sector employees regarding labor law. The right wing spin machine has tried to sell the idea that collective bargaining for the public sector is what ails society economically so as to obfuscate the real issues and you are one of the buyers (loose with your money are ya?).



Facts check sonny. When it comes to labor law (except when knee-jerk reactionary Republicans, say, in Wisconsin, that are trying to change it), it doesn't matter whether unions are representing the public or private sector. Worker's rights are worker's rights, period. i.e. So, when your house is on fire, the fire fighters shouldn't be able to bargain for their QOL??

You are galactically ignorant......apparently, by choice. I advise you to look beyond your nose.

I have always been curious about this issue. I understand the argument of those who say we need unions to protect workers from the supposed predations of the marketplace, but what protections do GOVERNMENT workers need? They have always had job security, low productivity requirements, and never had to worry about layoffs and economic cycles. BTW, JFK started the government union rule; the political benefit was the ability to expand the federal workforce with people whose union would make massive donations to his Party.

 

[G4dude]

A. Quit making up straw man numbers and arguments. That said, I would prefer that taxes are raised on those making well over 50K. In that sense, those that benefit most should pay their share and if that means that paying taxes so a public sector employee can retire at whatever age for which their union can bargain, so be it.



Blame it on giving public sector workers their right to collectively bargain. Yeah right, they're the source of Ohio's budget woes, but don't consider the tax breaks for the wealthy.

I can see you having your opinion if you're wealthy. The funny thing is (unless you're signing bonus checks to executives and sports superstars) you're just another mindless sucker.

If you took ALL the money from the wealthy, Ohio (and the US) would still be broke because of the union pensions and medical benefits at retirement.

 

[pilotyip]

"You are galactically ignorant......apparently, by choice. I advise you to look beyond your nose.

Ah! the classic liberal, name calling it fits so well on FI. Little story of public employee unions, City of Detroit, Retiree compensation and benefits are now 25% of the total budget for Detroit. Contract written in the 60's and 70's when the city had 1.7M people is now a city of under 500K taxpayers. The city may have to go BK to break the contracts. In the mean time currently employed cops and Firefighters are laid off to save. The murder rate goes up and houses burn down because of no response. Funny thing about these dedicated public employees, the retirees have all moved out of the city because the taxes are too high, so the City of Detroit money it doesn't have flows out of the city.

 

[OPECJet]

I have always been curious about this issue. I understand the argument of those who say we need unions to protect workers from the supposed predations of the marketplace, but what protections do GOVERNMENT workers need? They have always had job security, low productivity requirements, and never had to worry about layoffs and economic cycles. BTW, JFK started the government union rule; the political benefit was the ability to expand the federal workforce with people whose union would make massive donations to his Party.

Job security is a thing of the past in gov't work. Agreed about the low productivity requirements.

 

[waka]

Ah! the classic liberal, name calling it fits so well on FI.

Ah! The classic conservative hypocrite, selectively ignores the name-calling from the right (from rajflyboy in this case) to which I was responding. Yet, you're quick to preach about name-calling to those whom disagree with you.

Little story of public employee unions, City of Detroit, Retiree compensation and benefits are now 25% of the total budget for Detroit. Contract written in the 60's and 70's when the city had 1.7M people is now a city of under 500K taxpayers. The city may have to go BK to break the contracts. In the mean time currently employed cops and Firefighters are laid off to save. The murder rate goes up and houses burn down because of no response. Funny thing about these dedicated public employees, the retirees have all moved out of the city because the taxes are too high, so the City of Detroit money it doesn't have flows out of the city.

That's just sucks. However, is it the fault of the retirees? No. Most conservatives like you like to blame problems with intricate and complex causes to simple ones that fit into the type of catchy one-liners that are abused by right wing radio spinmeisters. This makes it such that the target audience can feel good about their refusal or inability to think.

 

[waka]

If you took ALL the money from the wealthy, Ohio (and the US) would still be broke because of the union pensions and medical benefits at retirement.

Show your work.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Awe, that just sucks. I thought your absence from this board indicated that you followed in the footsteps of your cowardly friend with your own suicide.

The suicide was real, and this particular individual had a significant impact on many pilots on this board. It was a situation where a union work action placed him into a position he wouldn't have been in otherwise, and it was the final straw that pushed into the abyss.

Funny of all the things you should remember of my early posts it was that. It also wouldn't be hard to figure out who that was, and once you know who it is, it's easy to figure out who I am. Friend? No. Co-worker? Absolutely.

I used this as early on as an example of what unions can do to the innocent. He certainly was that.

All those families that suffered under the furloughs at NJ and all those that trusted their failed union to protect them.

The only thing that was protected was the high payroll and greed of the upper two/thirds of the seniority list because the rest of them were sacrificed. Unions don't care about their bretheren or whomever else they hurt.

This touched a nerve Waka and wasn't necessary. It was immature, childish and unprofessional. You actually fly for a living?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Be careful what you ask for...

Are you kidding? 35M is paltry compared to money spent by corporate lobbyists. Besides, their statement about controlling costs were in a time that executives weren't paid the exorbitant money that they're paid now. Do you actually think that they're concerned with cost control in regard to their salary bonuses? Think again.

35M is paltry for a good CEO that protects jobs and ensures that a company will remain profitable. Something no union has ever done.

 

[GooseHZ]

lomg time

Hey BT,

how is dallas treating u?

 

[imacdog]

The suicide was real, and this particular individual had a significant impact on many pilots on this board. It was a situation where a union work action placed him into a position he wouldn't have been in otherwise, and it was the final straw that pushed into the abyss.

Funny of all the things you should remember of my early posts it was that. It also wouldn't be hard to figure out who that was, and once you know who it is, it's easy to figure out who I am. Friend? No. Co-worker? Absolutely.

I used this as early on as an example of what unions can do to the innocent. He certainly was that.

All those families that suffered under the furloughs at NJ and all those that trusted their failed union to protect them.

The only thing that was protected was the high payroll and greed of the upper two/thirds of the seniority list because the rest of them were sacrificed. Unions don't care about their bretheren or whomever else they hurt.

This touched a nerve Waka and wasn't necessary. It was immature, childish and unprofessional. You actually fly for a living?

See B, the problem about lying is it's tough to keep your story straight. Here's your post from 2007 on the subject:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1322195&highlight=suicide#post1322195

From CLOSE friends I have personally witnessed: One divorce (3 children involved), One bankruptcy (two children involved), One suicide (two children involved) I have personally been laid off twice as a non-flying pilot in management positions (two children involved).......

So either he was a CLOSE friend (hey you wrote it in caps, not me), or he was just a coworker. Kind of a difference there.

 

[waka]

The suicide was real, and this particular individual had a significant impact on many pilots on this board. It was a situation where a union work action placed him into a position he wouldn't have been in otherwise, and it was the final straw that pushed into the abyss.

Funny of all the things you should remember of my early posts it was that. It also wouldn't be hard to figure out who that was, and once you know who it is, it's easy to figure out who I am. Friend? No. Co-worker? Absolutely.

I used this as early on as an example of what unions can do to the innocent. He certainly was that.

All those families that suffered under the furloughs at NJ and all those that trusted their failed union to protect them.

The only thing that was protected was the high payroll and greed of the upper two/thirds of the seniority list because the rest of them were sacrificed. Unions don't care about their bretheren or whomever else they hurt.

This touched a nerve Waka and wasn't necessary. It was immature, childish and unprofessional. You actually fly for a living?

What a hypocrite and I liar you are. When you first USED this supposed suicide to bolster your propaganda, you said it was a "friend", not just a co-worker. Now, you say he was a co-worker. To boot, who gives you the right to speak for this suicidal maniac and USE it for your own selfish ego boost? Talk about childish and immature.

See, you're just an opportunist and you USED this alleged suicide for your rants.

Touched a nerve my foot. Even if I really did, then you deserve it because you ultimately brought it on yourself. In other words, if the truth hurts, it should. How do you even look at yourself in the mirror?

 

[pilotyip]

WOW talk about thread drift.

 

[B19 Flyer]

What a hypocrite and I liar you are. When you first USED this supposed suicide to bolster your propaganda, you said it was a "friend", not just a co-worker. Now, you say he was a co-worker. To boot, who gives you the right to speak for this suicidal maniac and USE it for your own selfish ego boost? Talk about childish and immature.

See, you're just an opportunist and you USED this alleged suicide for your rants.

Touched a nerve my foot. Even if I really did, then you deserve it because you ultimately brought it on yourself. In other words, if the truth hurts, it should. How do you even look at yourself in the mirror?

Like I said, you're funny about you remember. I rubbed shoulders with this guy for over three years. You want to use nuances with language? I knew his family and went to to the funeral and was there when they buried his urn. That's close enough for me.

Was also close enough to know the impact he had on YOUR career and pretty much every pilot on this board that didn't come up through military flying. Bad things happen to good people. I was close enough to the situation to know that if the work action hadn't happened, I highy doubt the same result would have occurred. Unions don't care about anything but the money.

Now. YOU on the other hand won't comment on the rest of the post because you're gutless, like all of your other union buddies.

Comment on the rest of the post. You tell me why the bottom third of the seniority list is meaningless and why YOU feel it's ok for them to lose their incomes and careers to save those that did nothing more than get hired before them. Doesn't mean they are better pilots, just means they got hired first. Seniority doesn't protect the company, does not protect the traveling public, does not protect the passengers in the airplane or those around them.

Your gutless Waka. I stand by my words. I used the words "CLOSE FRIENDS to also accomodate for the other people I mentioned. Maybe it was because I care about those around me and all you care about is your paycheck and not the welfare of those around you.

Perhaps you don't have any "CLOSE FRIENDS" and can't relate. I don't know.

But what I do know is that a man is dead because of union activity and you think it's a joke.

Done with this subject. You want to discuss all the great things that your union has done to protect the furloughed pilots sacrificed in the name of brotherhood?

Bring it on... that won't be much of a thread. Unions don't protect their brethren, they sacrifice them.

 

[B19 Flyer]

WOW talk about thread drift.

Agreed, my last post is an attempt to get it back on track, but we both know it's not going to happen.

They are more concerned about how I blended "friend" and "coworker" rather than the fact thier union didn't protect thier fellow pilots in a time of need.

 

[pilotyip]

thier union didn't protect thier fellow pilots in a time of need.

You mean like the IBT taking dues out of my severance pay when my airline went out of business. Then telling that they had no obligation to assist any of us in our job search, you mean that kind of union stuff.