well that was quick.....

[KiddDynomite]

Our competitors can staff with equally good pilots at 60 percent of the cost. How does NJA compete with that? Even if management were Einsteins, they would not be able to overcome such a structural disadvantage. Look at GM. Toyota had labor costs, in the US, of half what GM had, and union types were STILL saying GM's problems were poor management!

I hate to break it to you G4 but NJA was always, let me repeat that, ALWAYS, more expensive than the competition. We were more expensive when we were paid less than the FLOPS pilots, oh, and let's not bring in FLOPS because I was there two, an original, so I know first hand. Our contract is not the problem. The problem is a depressed economy, unnecessary and artificial growth when all the competitors were shrinking and now an inept group of managers who cannot adjust the business plan or model so they do the obvious, blame labor. When DS gutted the casino that was one of the worst things he could have done. Sure there was overlap and some cuts were needed but he cut essential things that were implemented to increase efficiency. They have exacerbated the situation. Scope is not the problem. I'll offer this take away the financial penalty but not limit would that convince you? I don't think so. You just have a hatred for unions. Let me tell you something FLOPS needed one and what happened to me there would never have happened at NJA, why? Because of a UNION! When you have the lunatics running the asylum like they did you need straightjackets and that straightjacket is a union! Get used to it. Focus on maintaing the great customer service you and all of us provide and keeping our clients happy. Trust if you ever have a situation and you need their help you'll be thankful for it and don't tell me it won't or can't happen because it can happen to any of us.

 

[Pervis]

G4, reread my post #152. I didn't pull that number out of my arse. At 100k each, that's 300 pilot salaries. It wasn't the union who cost the company in years past. The waste and bad decisions added to the incredible costs, not the pilots. It's no secret that one of the few good things DS did was trim a lot of fat. In fact, he trimmed $100 MILLION in the first 5 weeks, including "consultants" that made 7 figures to design Hamburgler paint schemes.

Remember, and I'm only using this as historical data, until 2005, NJI pilots made a LOT more money than NJA pilots. The reasons one side was favored is irrelevent. The task the union undertook was to reach a QOL level for all of us, recognizing way before management would even admit that we are indeed one company. Had we all been treated as you were before late 2005, the union would not have been so aggressive. Most importantly, the first full year of business after the '05 CBA took effect, NJA made more money than ever before in 2006.

Every single company that has seen downturns have blamed the employees for everything from bad decisions to reduced sales. Tactics to divide groups is nothing new. No one wants the company to shut its doors. And remember, there are just as many "crazies" in management as there are in the union.

Without a union, can you imagine nearly 3000 individual employees negotiating for themselves? Merit based pay for a highly skilled group like ours is unattainable. Certain rules and guidelines need to be established, in writing, and need to be reviewed and ammended from time to time. That's the purpose of a CBA. Without it, can you imagine what our situation would be like right now? Do you think DS or HJ would treat you or anyone else like RTS did? Especially in times like these, our union is essential to stability.

What is unfortunate is the apparant need by some to stir the pot, so to speak, and keep the indians riled up. That comes from both sides. You only see one of those sides here, except for the inputs from a few management trolls whose sole purpose is to keep stirring that pot.

 

[G4dude]

G4, reread my post #152. I didn't pull that number out of my arse. At 100k each, that's 300 pilot salaries. It wasn't the union who cost the company in years past. The waste and bad decisions added to the incredible costs, not the pilots. It's no secret that one of the few good things DS did was trim a lot of fat. In fact, he trimmed $100 MILLION in the first 5 weeks, including "consultants" that made 7 figures to design Hamburgler paint schemes.

Remember, and I'm only using this as historical data, until 2005, NJI pilots made a LOT more money than NJA pilots. The reasons one side was favored is irrelevent. The task the union undertook was to reach a QOL level for all of us, recognizing way before management would even admit that we are indeed one company. Had we all been treated as you were before late 2005, the union would not have been so aggressive. Most importantly, the first full year of business after the '05 CBA took effect, NJA made more money than ever before in 2006.

Every single company that has seen downturns have blamed the employees for everything from bad decisions to reduced sales. Tactics to divide groups is nothing new. No one wants the company to shut its doors. And remember, there are just as many "crazies" in management as there are in the union.

Without a union, can you imagine nearly 3000 individual employees negotiating for themselves? Merit based pay for a highly skilled group like ours is unattainable. Certain rules and guidelines need to be established, in writing, and need to be reviewed and ammended from time to time. That's the purpose of a CBA. Without it, can you imagine what our situation would be like right now? Do you think DS or HJ would treat you or anyone else like RTS did? Especially in times like these, our union is essential to stability.

What is unfortunate is the apparant need by some to stir the pot, so to speak, and keep the indians riled up. That comes from both sides. You only see one of those sides here, except for the inputs from a few management trolls whose sole purpose is to keep stirring that pot.

Fair enough. I would point out, however, that NJI's higher pay was at a NON UNION workplace. Yet we were more productive, and made the company more profit even while we made more money as pilots, all due to our higher productivity, not being constrained by a rigid contract and the class warfare mentality that accompanies it. I believe a union is the wrong answer to the right question, which is "How are pilots to receive the best compensation, job security, and fair treatment in an enjoyable workplace, while returning a good profit to the shareholders?" You and I care about the same things, we just have different solutions. That goes for Grizz, Bentover, Fischman, at al.

 

[Pervis]

I'm not sure that I'd agree one or another is more productive or not. For example, I've blocked nearly 500 hrs this year already, flying more/shorter legs than the large cabin aircraft typically do, due to the nature of the mission. I would be all for some type of incentive for productivity bonuses for whichever fleet earns it though.

As far as the non-union shop, there is no question RTS hated the IBT, as we all learned to. We paid the price for it, while you enjoyed the consequences, until a deal was brokered to break away from them. I don't believe he hated unions per say, and in fact he shared a much improved working relationship with NJASAP. The new union, its leadership, and the pilots proved how well we could all work together once the adversarial approach was abandoned.

At this point, the strain has returned. Some exacerbated by the union, I'll grant you that. Emotions tend to run high in troubling times. However, blatant departure from a legally binding agreement does not foster a good working environment, under any circumstances. The union and RTS worked together feverishly in 2008 to mitigate the impact of the economic meltdown. DS and JH have destroyed that relationship in very short order.

Yes, we have the same goals in mind. The union is the best way, in my opinion, as long as the goal of productivity and stability is shared by both sides. It is true some unions have destroyed companies. Ours is not one of those. Will there be conflict at times? Certainly. When two professional groups work together though, we can work through those conflicts to everyone's mutual advantage, rather than individual "good deals".

 

[brokeflyer]

Our competitors can staff with equally good pilots at 60 percent of the cost. How does NJA compete with that? Even if management were Einsteins, they would not be able to overcome such a structural disadvantage. Look at GM. Toyota had labor costs, in the US, of half what GM had, and union types were STILL saying GM's problems were poor management!

tell them you want a pay cut....





yeah thats what i thought.lol

 

[squonk]

And yet, I still dislike the union. I dislike the us versus them mentality, the aggressive postings on sites like this which are designed to drive honest dissenters away. Wolfpackpilot doesn't post here any more because of it. He is the only guy here, by the way, who knows who I am. Which is just one of the line pilots. Representing only myself, although most of my colleagues on the IV (former NJI, not the newer NJA transfers) and V agree with me, they just don't have the energy to debate you morons. We discuss this stuff on the road incessantly, and are very worried y'all will render NJA uncompetitive.

No Wolfie doesn't post here anymore or the union board for that matter after he went live on TV to speculate on a King Air accident using the company name to lend gravitas. Not because of "aggressive postings" on this site or especially our home site.

Wolfie didn't mind mixing it up "aggressively" on here and never backed down from a challenge from what I remember.

FWIW, I appreciated Wolfie's perspective and he was one of a few who seemed to reach across the divide when it was a contentious divided house. I wish he would become active again.

 

[imacdog]

I forgot about when Billy did that, haha

 

[G4dude]

No Wolfie doesn't post here anymore or the union board for that matter after he went live on TV to speculate on a King Air accident using the company name to lend gravitas. Not because of "aggressive postings" on this site or especially our home site.

Wolfie didn't mind mixing it up "aggressively" on here and never backed down from a challenge from what I remember.

FWIW, I appreciated Wolfie's perspective and he was one of a few who seemed to reach across the divide when it was a contentious divided house. I wish he would become active again.

Yeah, he was fun.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Be careful what you ask for...

I want you to give me solid evidence instead of innuendo as to how the contract is harming the company. Is it the 401k match?

I want you to give me solid evidence instead of innuendo as to how the contract is harming the company.

You skipped the labor relations class in college, eh? Nothing I say is new, the history of labor relations speaks for itself.

Here is your class (I'll save you some money)

Union holds company hostage for a contract, economy hiccups after an insane contract is agreed upon, labor doesn't act fast enough because they are too damn stupid to understand that business needs to react quickly to save jobs/customers, carrier gets forced into bankruptcy/near bankruptcy or out of business, everybody gets hurt, managment gets blamed for not being able work around the insane contract, union opens contract at the 11th hour (usually right before the company either goes out of business or the bankruptcy judge gets it to modify the terms via a court order, entire company gets restructured, airline returns to break even/profitability. Cycle returns to step one.

In the meantime non-union or lightly unionized carriers chug along with minimal issues, passengers are happy, employees are happy and union mongers like you just do your job and enjoy life.

How much more evidence do you need?

Right now NJ is at the point where the CBA is creating a mess to the point of which it needs to be fixed. The union will continue to stick their head in the sand, more pilots will get furloughed (probably several more times) and NJ will slip to the point of which the company's existence is threatened, the potential for a major issue will happen, and at the 11th hour one union leader will pull their head out of the sand and do something about the contract.

None of this is new, it's all the same. There isn't a single thing on this board that is new, kids like you think you are inventing the wheel.

I do find it funny when somebody takes pilot salaries and multiplies it to come up with an estimated amount of pilot cost. They totally ignore things like training, work rules, benefits, payroll taxes etc. which add another 60% or more to the cost. That 100,000 a year pilot (in regards to payroll) will cost the company $160,000 a year. So before you go thinking that it's all about payroll, you're wrong. Then again, that's a common theme, you're supporting a union.

 

[B19 Flyer]

tell them you want a pay cut....


yeah thats what i thought.lol

Broke, that has happened on rare occasion in this industry, and when it does happen the carrier has saved jobs.