Virgin America hangs as its hedge fund owners get antsy

[Fubijaakr]

And what do you say to the hungry pilot who has a family to feed?

I say, "Get a non-flying job." I've personally known guys who have quit flying rather than go to a non-Union flying job.

One went into airport management and is doing VERY well (better than me!).

Others have started their own businesses and are very successful.

Pilots who think all they can do is fly are selling themselves WAY short. Especially when they go to the Virgins/Allegiants of the world and help ruin this career for current and FUTURE pilots.

Never forget "I have a family to feed" is the line most scabs use to justify their actions. Its a short step from Virgin to crossing YOUR picket line. I wouldn't put it past any of them.

 

[Shrek]

What exactly is "undercutting" wages anyway? I mean if a pilot at UAL or USAirways flies a narrowbody aircraft for less than a Southwest pilot are they undercutting wages? Should they quit their jobs rather than working for less than another carrier pays? I mean they do have that option they could "take one for the team" and just leave the profession (not an easy choice as you say but we all have to make tough choices, right) rather than doing the job for less than others get paid to do it; would that make sense to you? That's the choice that you are asking the VA pilots to make. Is it OK for a UAL, USAirways or Alaska pilot to fly a plane for less than a Southwest pilot but not OK for a VA pilot to work for less than a UAL pilot? Where do we draw the line? Is it OK to "undercut" Southwest if you are unionized but not OK if you work for a non-union start-up? I'm sure the narrowbody guys who work for the legacy carriers can "rationalize" working for less than Southwest and say that it's not their fault. When Southwest started they were working harder for less money than their major airline competitors where they wrong to take those jobs? Do YOU want to tell a Southwest pilot with 30 years on the job that he "undercut" the profession and should never have taken the job? Whatever you fly and whoever you fly it for if you are not receiving the highest pay rates in the industry for that size equipment, seat and longevity I recommend that you quit your job to defend the profession rather than undercutting another pilot group.


For the record I don't work for VA, I don't work anywhere anymore but I know what it's like to lose a job after years in the profession. Also, I spent more time and gave more effort as a union officer for more years than 95% of all airline pilots ever will while at my former carrier. I've seen a lot of good people end up on the street through no fault of their own, it's just the luck of the draw in this industry. I'm never going to be the one to judge somebody who needs to provide for their family for taking what work is available when they need a paycheck as long as they don't cross a picket line. It looks a lot different when you're on the inside looking out than when you're on the outside looking in.

Next time you see a VA pilot face to face at least have the guts to tell them that you hope they lose their jobs and end up on the street. It's a lot different to say these things on an anonymous computer forum than it is when you are looking at another pilot who isn't that different from you. I hope you keep your job in this mess, I don't wish hard times on anybody because I know what it feels like. Just remember though, if the circumstances had been different it could be you who was out work and needed a job when times were tough and options were limited. The old saying about not judging someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes was first uttered by someone who was obviously a lot wiser than you. The "wheat from the chaff" my a$$, I don't even know why I bothered to type this; it's not even worth the effort.

Yep...........furloughed UAL so yes I have been walking a "mile" in their shoes.

Did I go to VA......hell no.
Did I take a job that undermines the industry as a whole ( including GoJet...hell no ).
I live thousands of miles away from my family to work and "feed my family".
It would have been easier to pick the low hanging fruit but would hurt my long term goals for myself and my fellow pilots in the industry.

Hard choices ----- no doubt.
Right choice-------no doubt.

I don't advocate or suggest anything that I wouldn't do myself.

 

[goodgig]

Its a short step from Virgin to crossing YOUR picket line. I wouldn't put it past any of them.

It's a short step from buying a gun to going into a mall and shooting people. Most don't.

Many people do (and for good reason) leave aviation. I personally don't know of any who have not at least muttered it.

But the mile in their shoes analogy is very real. No job/ major career change vs. actually working flying a big shiny jet for slightly less pay is a choice that many have had to make. I doubt anything said in a thread like this is going to swing a vote. The ground floor at any startup is not going to look like the ivory tower at a major.
Give Rodney a chance.

 

[Flyiguy]

Yep...........furloughed UAL so yes I have been walking a "mile" in their shoes.

Did I go to VA......hell no.
Did I take a job that undermines the industry as a whole ( including GoJet...hell no ).
I live thousands of miles away from my family to work and "feed my family".
It would have been easier to pick the low hanging fruit but would hurt my long term goals for myself and my fellow pilots in the industry.

Hard choices ----- no doubt.
Right choice-------no doubt.

I don't advocate or suggest anything that I wouldn't do myself.

Shrek, Where did you end up?

 

[Shrek]

Shrek, Where did you end up?

Vietnam.

 

[jayme]

You chose to see your family (wife, kids?) a couple times a year just so others coming into the profession will have more opportunity? Wow, you really do have the right to hate me. Thanks for voting "no" on every contract at UAL that included selling jobs to the regionals, too. That had a MUCH bigger impact than moving across the world. You DID vote "no", right?

 

[Shrek]

You chose to see your family (wife, kids?) a couple times a year just so others coming into the profession will have more opportunity? Wow, you really do have the right to hate me. Thanks for voting "no" on every contract at UAL that included selling jobs to the regionals, too. That had a MUCH bigger impact than moving across the world. You DID vote "no", right?

Wasn't there long enough to do so........

But yes at every property I have been on I have voted "no" to short term gain but detrimental, in my view, to the industry in the long term........

Don't hate you at all........

 

[cruxx@9]

Shrek,

While I do respect a lot of your posts and a lot of what you have to say on here, you were at Spirit. Spirit wasn't always union and neither was SWA. And look now, both are union. VA is not union now, but very well could be in a few years. Then will it be okay to work there, after all of us made it work?

Spirit has some of the worst pay in the industry, but it's union...so that makes it okay to work there? I worked there too and I'm not slamming you for it, but it makes some of these points confusing.

A FO at Spirit in 4th year pay makes $60.50/hr. Now I will give you that the QOL stuff in the contract is pretty good, but unless you work a bunch of overtime, you won't make enough money to support a family. Now there are guys on furlough or the company is wrong, so I know there is a voluntary ban on working overtime...so where does that leave those guys? Making no money...but working for a union carrier. I'm confused how that is different than working for a carrier that pays the same....just non-union (maybe for the time being)

So you can't have it both ways. Working for far less than your peers (but union) and stomping on non union carriers. You want to bash VA because it's non union...at least your not the pot calling the kettle black and it's a better argument.

Obviously, you like I did, got sick of all the BS at Spirit and left. Good for you.

For the rest of you haters...how many of you have maybe a side business as a contractor? Are you union? Do you under bid union electricians, carpenters, etc. for work? Do you use union trades for your jobs? If you say yes, then good on you. But if the answer is no....shame on you.

Calling a non-union pilot a scab that has not ever crossed a picket line would be funny....if you actually weren't serious. How many of you have actually been on a picket line? I have. For a real union by the way. I would never cross one, or cross a picket line that was being walked by a "pilot association".

This thread will go on and on and on, because you are not going to change my mind, nor will anyone change yours. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. I'm gonna leave it at that. I've wasted way too much of my time on this sh1t a$$ thread! I'm gonna spend some time with my family.

Peace out!

BTW great posts fam62c.

 

[Shrek]

Shrek,

While I do respect a lot of your posts and a lot of what you have to say on here, you were at Spirit. Spirit wasn't always union and neither was SWA.
I wouldn't have worked at Spirit or SWA when they were not union represented.

And look now, both are union. VA is not union now, but very well could be in a few years. Then will it be okay to work there, after all of us made it work? Yes - but I think "making it work" shouldn't involve undercutting the rest to get there.

Spirit has some of the worst pay in the industry, but it's union...so that makes it okay to work there? Yes. The problem that I saw at Spirit is the fact there is no real unity there. You know what I am talking about. I think the contract would look quite a bit different if everybody pulled on the same rope in the same direction.
I worked there too and I'm not slamming you for it, but it makes some of these points confusing.

A FO at Spirit in 4th year pay makes $60.50/hr. Now I will give you that the QOL stuff in the contract is pretty good, but unless you work a bunch of overtime, you won't make enough money to support a family. You can raise a family on 60/bucks an hour.
Now there are guys on furlough or the company is wrong, so I know there is a voluntary ban on working overtime...so where does that leave those guys?They need to tighten their belt for the good of the pilot group as a whole....not pick up overtime when pilots are on the street - period.
Making no money...but working for a union carrier. I'm confused how that is different than working for a carrier that pays the same....just non-union (maybe for the time being) I don't think we will EVER see VA be union - just my opinion.

So you can't have it both ways. Working for far less than your peers (but union) and stomping on non union carriers. The industry would look alot better for everybody if non-union carriers were not in the mix.
You want to bash VA because it's non union...at least your not the pot calling the kettle black and it's a better argument.

Obviously, you like I did, got sick of all the BS at Spirit and left. Good for you.

For the rest of you haters...how many of you have maybe a side business as a contractor? Are you union? Do you under bid union electricians, carpenters, etc. for work? Do you use union trades for your jobs? If you say yes, then good on you. But if the answer is no....shame on you.

Calling a non-union pilot a scab that has not ever crossed a picket line would be funny....if you actually weren't serious.That is something that I would never do----not saying that you thought so---- How many of you have actually been on a picket line? I have. For a real union by the way. I would never cross one, or cross a picket line that was being walked by a "pilot association".Thank you sir.

This thread will go on and on and on, because you are not going to change my mind, nor will anyone change yours. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. I'm gonna leave it at that. I've wasted way too much of my time on this sh1t a$$ thread! I'm gonna spend some time with my family.

Peace out!

BTW great posts fam62c.

...............

 

[Shrek]

Shrek,

While I do respect a lot of your posts and a lot of what you have to say on here, you were at Spirit. Spirit wasn't always union and neither was SWA. And look now, both are union. VA is not union now, but very well could be in a few years. Then will it be okay to work there, after all of us made it work? Making it work shouldn't involve undercutting others to get there.

Spirit has some of the worst pay in the industry, but it's union...so that makes it okay to work there?Yes. I left there because of the lack of unity. I think the contract would of looked alot different if everybody pulled on the same rope in the same direction. I worked there too and I'm not slamming you for it, but it makes some of these points confusing.

A FO at Spirit in 4th year pay makes $60.50/hr. Now I will give you that the QOL stuff in the contract is pretty good, but unless you work a bunch of overtime, you won't make enough money to support a family. You can raise a family on 60/hour. It may involve Mom going to work too but it can be done---easily.Now there are guys on furlough or the company is wrong, so I know there is a voluntary ban on working overtime...so where does that leave those guys? Pilots should never pick up overtime when their fellow pilots on the street - period.
Making no money...but working for a union carrier. I'm confused how that is different than working for a carrier that pays the same....just non-union (maybe for the time being)

So you can't have it both ways. Working for far less than your peers (but union) and stomping on non union carriers. I think the landscape would look quite different with non-union carriers out of the mix---my opinion.
You want to bash VA because it's non union...at least your not the pot calling the kettle black and it's a better argument.

Obviously, you like I did, got sick of all the BS at Spirit and left. Good for you.

For the rest of you haters...how many of you have maybe a side business as a contractor? Are you union? Do you under bid union electricians, carpenters, etc. for work? Do you use union trades for your jobs? If you say yes, then good on you. But if the answer is no....shame on you.

Calling a non-union pilot a scab that has not ever crossed a picket line would be funny....
That description is a narrow one and I would never confuse that with working for a non-union carrier --- not that you thought I would.if you actually weren't serious. How many of you have actually been on a picket line? I have. For a real union by the way. I would never cross one, or cross a picket line that was being walked by a "pilot association".Thank you sir.

This thread will go on and on and on, because you are not going to change my mind, nor will anyone change yours. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. I'm gonna leave it at that. I've wasted way too much of my time on this sh1t a$$ thread! I'm gonna spend some time with my family.

Peace out!

BTW great posts fam62c.

................................................................

 

[~~~^~~~]

How is Virgin operating in violation of the ownership rules, did another investor group come in, or is the government just not enforcing the law?

 

[Shrek]

................................................................

Sry for the double post.....

 

[~~~^~~~]

PS: Being " The One Trick Pony " that I am,,, I cant wait until Branson's sham travel agency stops buying up excess seats. That will be about the same time Branson has to write the check for $150,000,000 plus interest to Black Canyon and cyrus. Good for them they deserve it.

Is this true?

 

[Ralph Cramden]

No FIN, it's not true. CCB has been asked repeatedly to provide a link or proof and can't. He admits it is his own fabrication. Novel idea, but not true or even necessary.

On the ownership, the whole process for the US investors cashing out and the re-sell to new investors is contained in detail, pre approved by the DOT show cause order granting the certificate. It's in the VA docket at dot.gov if you care to read it. Where that process is right now is anybody's guess, the company says they will not comment on private investment activities, so unless you are one of the investors or the DOT you won't find out. The general mood at HQ is business as usual.

Shrek: Sorry to hear you went to Viet Nam. I know an F9 driver that bailed on that place very quick, claiming bad MX, bad piloting and abusive scheduling. He said a lot of guys were bailing there. Good luck to you and stay safe!

Keep the posts coming, they are quite entertaining!

 

[clickclickboom]

No FIN, it's not true. CCB has been asked repeatedly to provide a link or proof and can't. He admits it is his own fabrication. Novel idea, but not true or even necessary.

On the ownership, the whole process for the US investors cashing out and the re-sell to new investors is contained in detail, pre approved by the DOT show cause order granting the certificate. It's in the VA docket at dot.gov if you care to read it. Where that process is right now is anybody's guess, the company says they will not comment on private investment activities, so unless you are one of the investors or the DOT you won't find out. The general mood at HQ is business as usual.

Shrek: Sorry to hear you went to Viet Nam. I know an F9 driver that bailed on that place very quick, claiming bad MX, bad piloting and abusive scheduling. He said a lot of guys were bailing there. Good luck to you and stay safe!

Keep the posts coming, they are quite entertaining!

Ralph I never said it was a fabrication on my part I am just not willing to post my source here on Flight Info. Feed off that all you want but I would rather sit back and let time tell if the rumor I heard from a reputable source is true or not. Time will answer that question. I can wait can you?

 

[Ralph Cramden]

Pictures or it didn't happen, as they say.

I got all the time in the world.

BTW, the loads are quite heavy, not many empty seats to sell.

 

[Shrek]

Shrek: Sorry to hear you went to Viet Nam. I know an F9 driver that bailed on that place very quick, claiming bad MX, bad piloting and abusive scheduling. He said a lot of guys were bailing there. Good luck to you and stay safe!

Keep the posts coming, they are quite entertaining!

Thanks RC.........
I bet I know which one.....more to that story let me tell ya

Alot WERE going to leave but had to recind their 2 month resignation letters due to some F9 pilots not following through with leave requests for next month.

2 definitely are gone and maybe a 3rd since DEC for now.......

No doubt about it this place is like the Wild West and there are tons of reasons why people stay and why they go. Every reason is a valid one in my book. Just gotta be here to understand the craziness of the things that go on in this country........lol

:beer:

 

[mvedepo]

Ralph I never said it was a fabrication on my part I am just not willing to post my source here on Flight Info. Feed off that all you want but I would rather sit back and let time tell if the rumor I heard from a reputable source is true or not. Time will answer that question. I can wait can you?

CCB you are hilarious! I would find a new source. Unless you want to argue the fact that Branson is not only buying all the tickets but ALSO hiring people to sit in those seats! And yes I get the loadsheet and we ARE full. Quit posting crap that you are pulling out of your butt.

 

[clickclickboom]

Relax guys and fly safe...

PS


Did you guys ever hear the story about the guy that was running charters to the bahamas in a twin cessna.. The problem is that they were always the same people and there were drugs in the plane on every flight.. ?

 

[jppt2000]

Ralph I never said it was a fabrication on my part I am just not willing to post my source here on Flight Info. Feed off that all you want but I would rather sit back and let time tell if the rumor I heard from a reputable source is true or not. Time will answer that question. I can wait can you?

Okay, you're gonna wait and see if a rumor from a reputable source is true or not, that's a good one.

Go to the fracs forum CluckCluckBoob's been over there too.